Are fast chargers bad?

[EvenOdd]

This may be a stupid question but I have heard conflicting things about fast chargers and would like to get some input.

I noticed there is a 5amp and 10amp charger available from speedy feet which would drastically reduce charging time on my ACM 1300wh (think the factory one is 2amp). Are they good for the EUC though? Do they degrade the battery faster? Do they increase the risk of fire? Are there any cons to using them over the factory charger?

[houseofjob]

This topic has been well covered on the forums: 

 

 

EUC Forum Google Search: Fast Charging 1C

[meepmeepmayer]

Short answer: no.

The charge is distributed among the battery packs and their parts, details here depend on the battery configuration. Also, most cells have a standard expected charge rate that is much higher than what the EUC chargers wil deliver in the end, so even something like a 8A charger may still not above normal.

One thing that may happen that a high charge current will not affect the batteries, but other electronics that are not meant for that (charge port, board,...). KS does not want you to charge with more than 2A, I believe.

@KingSong69 can tell you all the details

Also I recommend getting a charge doctor with 2 inputs, so you could use 2A+2A or 2A+4A chargers together. I have the 32,10€ one for my 1300Wh ACM http://hobby16.neowp.fr/buy/

I'd also be interested in the maximum recommended A for the 1300Wh ACM. Second to last link in the above post answers exactly that.

Though if you can charge slower (2A) when you have the time, there's no reason against doing  that.

[meepmeepmayer]

If you go for battery longevity, I think the #1 thing to avoid is to keep charging when the battery is full, that puts a lot of stress on the cell membranes or something. Using a charge doctor for auto-shutoff at something like 95% is great then (1A minimum current - doctor default setting - stops my wheel charging at 98% which is perfect).

Naturally, overcharging with a stronger charger might be even worse.

TLDR: charge doctor

[meepmeepmayer]

Any serious damage (fire,...) the BMS will probably stop automatically.

[US69]

1 hour ago, EvenOdd said:

This may be a stupid question but I have heard conflicting things about fast chargers and would like to get some input.

I noticed there is a 5amp and 10amp charger available from speedy feet which would drastically reduce charging time on my ACM 1300wh (think the factory one is 2amp). Are they good for the EUC though? Do they degrade the battery faster? Do they increase the risk of fire? Are there any cons to using them over the factory charger?

 

55 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'd also be interested in the maximum recommended A for the 1300Wh ACM. Though if you can charge slower (2A) when you have the time, there's no reason against doing  that.

 

That mostly depends on what batteries in how much parallel circles you have!

340wh->2P

520/680/820->4P

1300wh/1600wh->6P

1360/1680wh->8Parallel packs

So if you go for example with a 4 Amp Charge, you have to divide that by parallel packs....lets stay on meepmeep 1300wh/6P example

Each of the pack gets 4Amp/6Packs=0,66 Amp....

For the installed batteries of about 3000mah each cell Charge up to 1,5Amp would be called a 0,5C Charge and 0,5C means slow!

With using 0,66Amp instead of 1,5Amp you are still doing a ultra-slow Charge(0,2C) and everything is fine!!!

 

So: As more parallel packs you have...the higher you can go with Charge rate/Amps!

But: More than 5 Amps are not recommended for the Charge wires inside the wheel!!! And/Or BMS Systems!

So if someone wants to go higher...Change the wiring on the Charge cables inside the wheel!!!

 

I dont know what KS had in it's thoughts when giving the 2Amp Statement......in my view it's nonsense to generalize....

[EvenOdd]

Thanks for the info. I searched "fast charger" on the forum but not much came up in relation to my question, perhaps I would have had better luck if I searched "fast charging" instead.

[US69]

And here a 13Amp Charger for a Monster (Needs modification on Charge port and wires), still a Charge inside the specs, 90% Charge in 2 hours:

 

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2F1radwerkstatt%2Fposts%2F879830182158191&width=500

 

To do the math:

2400wh are 9P(arallel)20s(eriell) packs = 13Amp/9Packs = 1,44Amp per seriellPack/cell

This cells are 3500mah, so a 0,5C slow Charge are 1,75 Amp=even with 13 Amps you are inside the specs!

I personally would not go over a 1Amp per seriellPack/cell....(from Vaping Charge experience)

 

But Chris from 1radwerkstatt certainly knows what he does :-)

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Just be sure that your charging wires inside the wheel are able to handle the higher current.  Most wheels I've seen have these tiny charging wires leading to the battery packs for charging.   As long as they don't heat up too much and everything is sound with the charging port itself hopefully things should be okay.  There must be a way to flip a switch into "charging mode" to disconnect the packs into two groups so that one can attach two chargers to two ports to charge things up in parallel to shorten the overall time.  I remember Gotway did something like that on one wheel (without a switch though), but I haven't seen it in general production.  Who wants to wait 19 hours to charge fully? 

Does anyone have a diagram showing how some of these larger packs are hooked up?  Maybe @esaj , @lizardmech , or @jrkline could take a look and suggest some ways to incorporate dual chargers somehow.  

[US69]

57 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Just be sure that your charging wires inside the wheel are able to handle the higher current.  Most wheels I've seen have these tiny charging wires leading to the battery packs for charging.   As long as they don't heat up too much and everything is sound with the charging port itself hopefully things should be okay.  There must be a way to flip a switch into "charging mode" to disconnect the packs into two groups so that one can attach two chargers to two ports to charge things up in parallel to shorten the overall time.  I remember Gotway did something like that on one wheel (without a switch though), but I haven't seen it in general production.  Who wants to wait 19 hours to charge fully? 

Does anyone have a diagram showing how some of these larger packs are hooked up?  Maybe @esaj , @lizardmech , or @jrkline could take a look and suggest some ways to incorporate dual chargers somehow.  

 

like on all wheels the packs are configured in parallel...and so charge parallel.

have to be so, cause the voltage of different packs is not allowed to be different, so that you can not charge only one!

you can use a charge doctor with to inputs, to use 2 chargers, or just use a self made parallel connection, which puts 2 chargers together, and then use 2 "paralleld" chargers.

or even more....

and like said ...all KS and Gw wheels are with thick enough wire, to stand a 5 Amp charge.....only if you go higher the charge wires in the wheel have to be changed.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Maybe I didn't phrase that well.  I was thinking that if there was a circuit that could split the batteries up one could attach two 5A chargers with one to each pack to charge them faster rather than have one 5A charger charge two packs.

[Marty Backe]

16 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Maybe I didn't phrase that well.  I was thinking that if there was a circuit that could split the batteries up one could attach two 5A chargers with one to each pack to charge them faster rather than have one 5A charger charge two packs.

Have you seen Ian's latest 'charger' video He modified his Monster by adding two additional charging ports. So he now has three ports (one per battery) and charges his wheel with three 5A chargers. Instead of taking ~20 hours for a full charge it's now ~2 hours. Insane 

In the video thumbnail, see the two additional charging ports on the side of the wheel...

 

[Merrittous MonoWheel]

47 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Have you seen Ian's latest 'charger' video He modified his Monster by adding two additional charging ports. So he now has three ports (one per battery) and charges his wheel with three 5A chargers. Instead of taking ~20 hours for a full charge it's now ~2 hours. Insane 

In the video thumbnail, see the two additional charging ports on the side of the wheel...

 

This video inspired me to order the 5A charging unit for my Monster:-)

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Merrittous MonoWheel said:

This video inspired me to order the 5A charging unit for my Monster:-)

I'm contemplating buying one too, for my ACM and Monster. Generally I don't ride the same wheel every time (a luxury I know) so I don't care if it takes 20 hours to charge. BUT, I'd rather not have the wheel charging while sleeping at night (in case something bad happens with the batteries - unlikely I know). With the 5A charger it could always be charged during the day.

[Hunka Hunka Burning Love]

Thanks, I haven't seen that video before.  That's pretty much what I was hoping that Gotway would incorporate as a standard feature in the future.  What's even more interesting is his iconic Captain America t-shirt @thefork.  

[US69]

5 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Have you seen Ian's latest 'charger' video He modified his Monster by adding two additional charging ports. So he now has three ports (one per battery) and charges his wheel with three 5A chargers. Instead of taking ~20 hours for a full charge it's now ~2 hours. Insane 

In the video thumbnail, see the two additional charging ports on the side of the wheel...

 

Preperation for Ian's 1000 mile ride.... :-)

The "more charge ports" i really dont understand....as carrying 3 of 5Amp chargers could have been avoided by using a 10-15Amp charger and using only one charge port (modified)

Very interested in this 1000mile ride...we will see a Monster (and i guess a v3s+ from his friend) on a real challenge!

[esaj]

10 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

There must be a way to flip a switch into "charging mode" to disconnect the packs into two groups so that one can attach two chargers to two ports to charge things up in parallel to shorten the overall time.  I remember Gotway did something like that on one wheel (without a switch though), but I haven't seen it in general production.  Who wants to wait 19 hours to charge fully? 

Does anyone have a diagram showing how some of these larger packs are hooked up?  Maybe @esaj , @lizardmech , or @jrkline could take a look and suggest some ways to incorporate dual chargers somehow.  

 

8 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Maybe I didn't phrase that well.  I was thinking that if there was a circuit that could split the batteries up one could attach two 5A chargers with one to each pack to charge them faster rather than have one 5A charger charge two packs.

No need for special circuitry inside the wheel/battery, two or more battery packs in parallel already should be at the same voltage (unless they're connected only from the charging side and have reverse polarity protection there), so each should get (roughly, taking real world conditions in to account) the same amount of current. The chargers themselves seem to be small switching power supplies with constant current/constant voltage -modes, so they always limit the current and voltage to specific values. If the current tries to rise too high, the voltage is limited to value where the current is at the set maximum (ie. when pack hasn't reached full voltage yet). If the voltage reaches the set value (like for example, the battery maximum voltage), the current is at or has already dropped below the set maximum value.

 

2 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

The "more charge ports" i really dont understand....as carrying 3 of 5Amp chargers could have been avoided by using a 10-15Amp charger and using only one charge port (modified)

10-15A charger would mean a peak power output of around 670-1kW for 67.2V / 840-1260W for 84V...That would be one hell of a charger   Of course it can be done, no doubt, although I'd be wary of getting something that powerful from any "noname"-manufacturer or Aliexpress or such   What were you planning on using as a charging port if going just with single one?

[meepmeepmayer]

9 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Maybe I didn't phrase that well.  I was thinking that if there was a circuit that could split the batteries up one could attach two 5A chargers with one to each pack to charge them faster rather than have one 5A charger charge two packs.

For clarification, because your wording might be ambiguous to some people:

The batteries must be balanced so they all have the same voltage (if they don't and you connect them which happens when running the wheel, BOOM). So you can NOT have "1 charge port per battery"  where that port only charges the one battery. You simply can have multiple charge ports going into a single, connected battery system. Using only one charge port (of however many you have installed) MUST necessarily charge all batteries at the same time.

That's what Ian did, 3 ports into one system. He can plug in 1,2,3 chargers to charge all the batteries at the same time, slow, faster, fastest.

[US69]

54 minutes ago, esaj said:

10-15A charger would mean a peak power output of around 670-1kW for 67.2V / 840-1260W for 84V...That would be one hell of a charger   Of course it can be done, no doubt, although I'd be wary of getting something that powerful from any "noname"-manufacturer or Aliexpress or such   What were you planning on using as a charging port if going just with single one?

Look above the Link from 1radwerkstatts facebook page...there (quality) 13amp Charger is not much bigger than a (good) 5amp Charger...

[meepmeepmayer]

8 hours ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said:

Thanks, I haven't seen that video before.  That's pretty much what I was hoping that Gotway would incorporate as a standard feature in the future.  What's even more interesting is his iconic Captain America t-shirt @thefork.  

Multiple ports does not make much sense as a standard feature [edit: if you just mean 5A standard charger - $$$$$$$$$ problem]

Better to have just one port which is rated for higher current. Even the current (no pun intended - or is it?) GW ports can do 5A.

Since they have lowly 1.5A standard chargers for costs reasons... they'd have to ship like TWO 5A chargers per wheel minimum for multiple ports to start making sense (and that's before they just could improve the port, which is certainly cheaper than an extra charger). Not likely...

It made sense for Ian's extreme demands where money is no object (compared to a wheel manufacturer) so that's where it happened (and it was probably easier for him plopping 2 additional ports in there as opposed to changing the entire wiring to accept a 15A charge from one port).

[Marty Backe]

8 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Preperation for Ian's 1000 mile ride.... :-)

The "more charge ports" i really dont understand....as carrying 3 of 5Amp chargers could have been avoided by using a 10-15Amp charger and using only one charge port (modified)

Very interested in this 1000mile ride...we will see a Monster (and i guess a v3s+ from his friend) on a real challenge!

Turns out his friend bought a Monster too (and he just sold his V3s+ via a Facebook posting on Ian's page)

[Scully]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

Turns out his friend bought a Monster too (and he just sold his V3s+ via a Facebook posting on Ian's page)

It must have been a real lucky buyer to pick that one up :-)

[esaj]

13 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

Look above the Link from 1radwerkstatts facebook page...there (quality) 13amp Charger is not much bigger than a (good) 5amp Charger...

Sorry, although I quoted you, the comment wasn't exactly directed at you: I trust that 1RadWerkstatt (Chris) knows that the 13A charger they're selling can do the job and won't burn down your house. It was mostly to point out to other people out there that buying some cheapest random "claimed to be 10A" or more charger from somewhere "less reputable", like some random eBay/Amazon/Aliexpress -seller is not a good idea, not at these powers, unless you can be fairly certain of the origin or that the sellers know what they're selling and that it's safe... kinda like with high power desktop computers or such, don't cheap out on the PSU (power supply unit)!  

Also, you newer answered my question: what kind of charging port would you recommend for 10+A usage? Just out of curiosity, XT60/EC5 and such should work, but would be pain to cover when not charging, just wondering if you know some good (and preferably easily available ) connector

[US69]

10 hours ago, esaj said:

answered my question: what kind of charging port would you recommend for 10+A usage? Just out of curiosity, XT60/EC5 and such should work, but would be pain to cover when not charging, just wondering if you know some

you got me :-) have no good answer for this.

in Chris pics it looks like he used a port looking exact the same as the standard ones...which it probably isnt.

so no clue...

[US69]

For everyone who thinks about getting a 5 Amp Charger or more....and please: nobody take that as offense against speedyfeet, who is doing a real great job! what follows now is just a tip of saving some money!!!

The chargers speedyfeet is using...and selling on his website, seam to be bought from 1radwerkstatt :-)

you can clearly see the round unique printed 1radwerkstatt sticker design on top of the chargers...to see on speedys website, and good seeable in his last 1000mile testride video!

And so, what everbody can guess now, they are a good amount more expensive(up to 50%)from speedy than buying them direct through 1rad webshop!

Saved money can better go to the charity of the 1000mile ride ;-)