Are fast chargers bad?

[Marty Backe]

4 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

For everyone who thinks about getting a 5 Amp Charger or more....and please: nobody take that as offense against speedyfeet, who is doing a real great job! what follows now is just a tip of saving some money!!!

The chargers speedyfeet is using...and selling on his website, seam to be bought from 1radwerkstatt :-)

you can clearly see the round unique printed 1radwerkstatt sticker design on top of the chargers...to see on speedys website, and good seeable in his last 1000mile testride video!

And so, what everbody can guess now, they are a good amount more expensive(up to 50%)from speedy than buying them direct through 1rad webshop!

Saved money can better go to the charity of the 1000mile ride ;-)

Cool. Do you happen to have a URL? I searched and I think I found the website. But I don't see any 5A chargers, and nothing listed for 84v chargers.

[meepmeepmayer]

http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/Charger

Use the dropdown menu to choose 84V - it's 99€.

@KingSong69 Nice find! I didn't want to spend money on something I usually don't need, but the lower price is tempting.

[US69]

21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Cool. Do you happen to have a URL? I searched and I think I found the website. But I don't see any 5A chargers, and nothing listed for 84v chargers.

 

20 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/Charger

Use the dropdown menu to choose 84V - it's 99€.

@KingSong69 Nice find! I didn't want to spend money on something I usually don't need, but the lower price is tempting.

@Marty Backe

best is to contact them by mail! (but link from @meepmeepmayer works!)

you can also choose something like a always 85 or 90% charge version or like whatever you want...the owner of 1rad can adjust that for you!

just be patient as his english is even worse than mine, haha....

 

As charging the last 10% is same fast with a 1,5Amp or 10 Amp charger....

So for example use a new 5 or 10 Amp charger....which did not go over 85-90% for allday charging and batterie life....

And every 10 or 20charges use your 1,5 Amp standard charger todo a balancing.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Why does the standard charger do "balancing" (what exactly is that?) and the faster chargers don't? Shouldn't the BMSes do that inside the wheel? Can the BMSes not keep up with balancing a higher current?

[Marty Backe]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

http://www.1radwerkstatt.de/epages/80603321.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/80603321/Products/Charger

Use the dropdown menu to choose 84V - it's 99€.

@KingSong69 Nice find! I didn't want to spend money on something I usually don't need, but the lower price is tempting.

Thanks for the link. And 99 includes VAT which I assume we wouldn't have to pay.

[meepmeepmayer]

I don't know. Did you get the VAT reimbursed when you bought wheels from Speedyfeet? Same should apply here - buy in EU from outside. Maybe Ian somehow combined this with US import costs (are there any?) so you did not see what happened behind the scenes.

If you need help with contacting the guy (aka in German) I'm available!

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I don't know. Did you get the VAT reimbursed when you bought wheels from Speedyfeet? Same should apply here - buy in EU from outside.

If you need help with contacting the guy (aka in German) I'm available!

Yes, Speedyfeet didn't charge the VAT (no reimbursement).  Thanks for the offer. I'm still undecided about buying a fast charger, and if I do whether to limit it to 90%. I really like long rides and 10% would be noticeable. 

[US69]

for usa: the announced prices on 1rad are 119%....you should minus 19% for the usa, also!

or am i guessing wrong? no taxes expert :-)

edit: checked! no Vat outside EU!

to do a 90%charge.....i know its hard to miss this 10%.... :-) have that prob on my 1000wh plus wheels, also!

but doing 90% allways will probably double your batterie cycles before the batts go down a bit....

[meepmeepmayer]

@Marty Backe Did you have to pay import fees of any kind to the US (does it depend on the state?)? If yes, how was that organized, you have to pay the postman before you get your package? Get your package from customs and pay there?

@KingSong69 Is there a difference between regular 1.5A and 5A charger in battery life? Should you charge to 90% only with the regular charger too?

How about using a charge doctor with a 5A charger (so it will stop at 1C which is about 98% on my ACM), how would that affect battery life? Viable alternative to 90% charge limit? You could also configure the CD for a lower percentage. Then you have best of both worlds.

If you have any answers to these questions...

[meepmeepmayer]

To continue the Charge Doctor idea, get one with 2 inputs, then maybe two standard chargers (3A together) is an alternative to 5A single charger, if you already have two standard chargers from 2 wheels.

[Marty Backe]

12 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Marty Backe Did you have to pay import fees of any kind to the US (does it depend on the state?)? If yes, how was that organized, you have to pay the postman before you get your package? Get your package from customs and pay there?

<snip>

No import fees or any other type of fees. My ACM, MSuper, and Monster were bought from Speedyfeet with no VAT. Shipping was between $50 and $70 (Monster). He ships with Fedex and I received my wheels in 5 business days (England to California).

[Marty Backe]

22 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

for usa: the announced prices on 1rad are 119%....you should minus 19% for the usa, also!

or am i guessing wrong? no taxes expert :-)

edit: checked! no Vat outside EU!

to do a 90%charge.....i know its hard to miss this 10%.... :-) have that prob on my 1000wh plus wheels, also!

but doing 90% allways will probably double your batterie cycles before the batts go down a bit....

I think (as I type this) that my view is I won't own my wheels long enough to care about a drop in battery performance. That may change with time (I've only been riding EUC's for 9 months), but right now those are my thoughts.

[US69]

10 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Marty Backe Did you have to pay import fees of any kind to the US (does it depend on the state?)? If yes, how was that organized, you have to pay the postman before you get your package? Get your package from customs and pay there?

@KingSong69 Is there a difference between regular 1.5A and 5A charger in battery life? Should you charge to 90% only with the regular charger too?

How about using a charge doctor with a 5A charger (so it will stop at 1C which is about 98% on my ACM), how would that affect battery life? Viable alternative to 90% charge limit? You could also configure the CD for a lower percentage. Then you have best of both worlds.

If you have any answers to these questions...

The difference of 1,5Amp and 5Amp and if its bad for batterie life depends on the packs and batteries used?

yes , 5amps are not good for a 2p16 or 20s...

But on a ACM or Msuper 84volt with 6parallel systems each system just gets about 0,85 Amp! a "half c" load would be 1,5 or 1,75 Amps for that cell type....and as that is just a about a "quarter C" load with 5 Amps...it is not said to do anything bad for batterie life!

 

And one more thing for charge doctor:

Your charge doctor is adjustable!! You can set the Amps or volts when it stops! (not "c"!)( i think it is adjusted to 1 amp when you get it)

Hold the button on your Cd, while you are plugging in the charger...and it will come up to life with "auto" announced...and then you can adjust the auto-stop amperage or voltage by one clicks (round robin)

 

[meepmeepmayer]

Yea it stops at 1A, not 1C, I confused that. I know you can change the minimum current, which is why I think charge doctor + unlimited 5A charger is better than limited 5A.

Just trying to get people to buy a charge doctor, such a cool little device

If the battery damage only depends on the percentage and not exceeding maximum current (so the faster charging does not make things worse in some other way), I'll try to stop at 90% from now on if it makes such a difference in battery life. Thanks.

[US69]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

I think (as I type this) that my view is I won't own my wheels long enough to care about a drop in battery performance. That may change with time (I've only been riding EUC's for 9 months), but right now those are my thoughts.

Yip! i always thought that, too!

But...the "cycles" are getting longer i recognized....as the wheels are getting better and faster and more range...

Would you think you will change your monster in the next one or two years? I guess, speed and range wise, we are near the max....i would vote for reliability and redundancy now :-) And with 5 Amps you are at 90% in about 4-5hours... :-)

 

i use my 4 amp charging now often for filling up again after. morning ride....wheel at 40-60%....doing 1 or 1,5 hour to reach 90 again.... haha...and i only have two wheels ;-)

[US69]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Yea it stops at 1A, not 1C, I confused that. I know you can change the minimum current, which is why I think charge doctor + unlimited 5A charger is better than limited 5A.

Just trying to get people to buy a charge doctor, such a cool little device

If the battery damage only depends on the percentage and not exceeding maximum current (so the faster charging does not make things worse in some other way), I'll try to stop at 90% from now on if it makes such a difference in battery life. Thanks.

its both! :-)

best is to have the batterie living between 20-80/90%....and not charging over 0,5 C....(so 5amps for 1300/1600wh is okand still slow...its just that the standard 1,5amp are ridiculous slow :-) )

Just all 10/20 charges filling up to 100% to have a perfect balancing....

[Marty Backe]

1 minute ago, KingSong69 said:

Yip! i always thought that, too!

But...the "cycles" are getting longer i recognized....as the wheels are getting better and faster and more range...

Would you think you will change your monster in the next one or two years? I guess, speed and range wise, we are near the max....i would vote for reliability and redundancy now :-) And with 5 Amps you are at 90% in about 4-5hours... :-)

 

i use my 4 amp charging now often for filling up again after. morning ride....wheel at 40-60%....doing 1 or 1,5 hour to reach 90 again.... haha...and i only have two wheels ;-)

I am happy with my wheels right now, although I must say that I'm probably going to sell my MSuper and buy the MSuper V3s+ (for the added power and much longer range). But I can't see selling my ACM (seems perfect to me) or Monster. But the Monster could lose 20% battery capacity and I wouldn't notice it 

I do hope reliability and redundancy is worked on next, but I'm doubtful. Can't wait to see what Gotway makes next (I'm like a kid in a candy store).

[US69]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

m like a kid in a candy store).

thats what my wife allways says :-) !!

 

looking forward to hear about the v3 and v3s+ difference from you! and v3s+ and ACM 84volt difference! i am really stumbling what my next wheel will be...ACM 1600/V3s+/Ks16s....both? ALL? no...unfortunately have to choose one....

I really dont know if i want to go back to a 16"....

[Marty Backe]

20 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

thats what my wife allways says :-) !!

 

looking forward to hear about the v3 and v3s+ difference from you! and v3s+ and ACM 84volt difference! i am really stumbling what my next wheel will be...ACM 1600/V3s+/Ks16s....both? ALL? no...unfortunately have to choose one....

I really dont know if i want to go back to a 16"....

If you ever get a chance to try the 84v ACM you might be willing to go back to a 16" 

If I do buy another performance wheel this year it probably won't be until later summer.

[Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer"]

50 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I do hope reliability and redundancy is worked on next, but I'm doubtful. Can't wait to see what Gotway makes next (I'm like a kid in a candy store).

What they need to make is the 84v ACM in a 14in model!

[US69]

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

If you ever get a chance to try the 84v ACM you might be willing to go back to a 16" 

i was able to ride a 820wh 67 Volt ACM this weekend...in comparison to my v3 1160wh 67 Volt.

Was not that impressed :-( i have to say....(bit by the other wheels also not, haha...)

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

i was able to ride a 820wh 67 Volt ACM this weekend...in comparison to my v3 1160wh 67 Volt.

Was not that impressed :-( i have to say....(bit by the other wheels also not, haha...)

The 67 volt ACM is like a wet noodle compared to the 84 volt version.  You see, I need to keep raising your expectations 

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, jrkline said:

What they need to make is the 84v ACM in a 14in model!

That would be cool. Can you image the torque that wheel would have.

[esaj]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Why does the standard charger do "balancing" (what exactly is that?) and the faster chargers don't? Shouldn't the BMSes do that inside the wheel? Can the BMSes not keep up with balancing a higher current?

In case of wheels, it's not the charger that's doing the balancing, but the BMS, the charger is just a sort of "dumb" constant current/constant voltage power supply. The reason why a partial charge won't (in most cases) balance the cells is the way the balancing is handled on the (cheaper) BMSs, I've never took that close of a look on a BMS, but apparently at least most simply will just bypass the cell once it reaches maximum voltage (around 4.2V), so the cells at maximum voltage will stop charging while the others are still being charged. I don't know how it's technically handled, the simplest way I can think of would be just to put 4.2V zener/transil-diodes in parallel with each cell, but AFAIK zeners aren't very precise, and could have trouble handling high charging currents, so probably there's something "more intelligent" still going on the BMS-side.

In RC-hobby packs, many battery packs are just a bunch of cells without BMS that have separate balancing wires for the cells. There, the charger is the "intelligent" part, and many higher quality chargers apparently stop charging the other cells when they notice one or more cells "falling behind" (or one or more cells getting ahead) in terms of voltage, and stop charging the higher voltage cells until the rest have caught up, because it can control the charging of each cell separately. That way, the cells can be balanced at lower voltages too. 

The connector with different colored wires going to the socket on the top right of the charger is the balancing connector.

But for the wheel BMSs (I don't know if it's true for all wheels, but apparently most), the cell has to be charged to full voltage before actual "balancing" occurs, and leaving the charger for longer while is to make sure that all the cells reach the maximum voltage, and are thus at the same voltage (balanced). Doing a partial charge, the cell bypasses won't be activated, and the cells can be left at different voltages.

[US69]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Why does the standard charger do "balancing" (what exactly is that?) and the faster chargers don't? Shouldn't the BMSes do that inside the wheel? Can the BMSes not keep up with balancing a higher current?

@Esaj explained the most, as always, perfect:-)

Just some standards:

"Balancing" decribed just to bring all cells to the exact same voltage!

Our BMS's are responsible for that, and they just do that on the last 10%! And its a slow progress....And it is done on higher current chargers, also! But just with the same speed as an slow, low current charger. do if you have 10, 5, or 1 Amp...the last 10% charging need the same time :-)

 At all you can discuss how much a charge balancing is needed at all....as the cells balance themself as they are serialized and parallels and so "got no other chance" as to be on same voltage :-) some cheaper BMS's did not even have a balancing "circuit"....

But as said, good aproach if you are in batterie lifetime saving is....going for 85/90% all day long....and sometimes , on 10th charge or so, doing a balanced 100% charge.....(just for safety)

if you have a CD...its perfect for that!!! :-)