ACM popped a fet...

[TremF]

I'm currently sat with 4 stitches above my left eye & my right arm in a sling waiting to go back for an x-ray.

I was riding to work this morning when I heard a crack after riding off a curb. It was only an inch drop if that. I thought it may have been something to do with the pedal or case so stopped for a look but didn't spot anything so carried on riding slowly. Not far along the way my ACM cut out. I banged my head and hurt my right hand, wrist & elbow. With blood gushing I had to walk back home carrying my ACM.

My wife cleaned me up & took me to A&E to have my arm checked.

As I said, I have 4 stitches above my left eye and a sling until I can go back for an x-ray.

I don't wear safety gear because in 2 years riding I've only had 2 spills that caused injury until now. I'll look at a helmet and wrist, elbow pads at the least but I generally rude at a sedate pace & I don't want others seeing me all padded up & worrying if I could injure them too. Especially as it's a full face helmet that's required really for EUC. As well as the cut I also have grazing to my check & jaw that a normal helmet wouldn't stop.

The ACM turns on but beeps & the wheel won't lock for balance it just turns freely. 

If it's just the board then I have a spare I can fit but it won't be until my hand/elbow ease up.

I get my Monster back tomorrow so don't know whether to use that for work or get the bus for a few days.

I'm right handed & it's my right arm so will be limited in the office but at least it is an office so if I go in I can type slowly lol

[US69]

50 minutes ago, TremF said:

when I heard a crack after riding off a curb

 

50 minutes ago, TremF said:

didn't spot anything so carried on riding slowly. Not far along the way my ACM cut out

 

51 minutes ago, TremF said:

The ACM turns on but beeps & the wheel won't lock for balance it just turns freely

I hope you get well soon!!!!

 

The wheel turns freely?? It is not like "stucked" and harder to turn the wheel?

If it spins freely, this does not Sound like a mosfet burning...normally the wheel is stuck then.

Perhaps on the "crack" Sound something gets loose and then later a Connection failed and that caused the cutoff....

[TremF]

6 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

 

 

I hope you get well soon!!!!

 

The wheel turns freely?? It is not like "stucked" and harder to turn the wheel?

If it spins freely, this does not Sound like a mosfet burning...normally the wheel is stuck then.

Perhaps on the "crack" Sound something gets loose and then later a Connection failed and that caused the cutoff....

Thank you.

When my arm & wrist eases I'll open it up & hopefully it is just a loose connection. I have a spare 12 MOSFET board anyway if needed. I still have the original 6 MOSFET Baird in.

It's been wired for a bit actually. The battery / brake lights work intermittently & Bluetooth doesn't work. I opened it previously but didn't notice anything loose other than the small Bluetooth? Board.

[Keith]

1 hour ago, TremF said:

I don't wear safety gear because in 2 years riding I've only had 2 spills that caused injury until now.

Hope you get well soon, this does really emphasise that a failure can occur at any time, through no fault of the rider and it just isn't worth not wearing protection. 

I've also only had two falls, both times not wearing any protection. Ironically, the first time, I not only was not wearing any protection, but worst, I had the lot even knee and elbow guards in my backpack! However, the longer I've gone without a fall, the more I've started to consider the odds of it happening must be getting smaller, and I've now found I'm not comfortable without a cycle helmet and wrist protectors on every ride, I've never hit my knees or elbows when coming off so I do not bother with those.

I honestly don't think full face protection is really needed unless you are going very fast, even at my advanced age I've managed to turn my head sideways and put out my arms the two times I've fallen at no more than  the 15MPH maximum my wheel does.

Only last night on a 5 mile ride to a friends house I speeded up on a cycle lane until I was getting 3 beeps from my wheel to pass a group of teenagers who might have been a problem, all of a sudden my wheel started swaying slowly back and forth, I felt like a was standing up in a rowing boat. I just tried to hold myself vertically until it slowed down by itself. I was SO glad I was wearing protection. It has never, ever done that before. The wheel behaved fine the rest of the way there and back, but felt firmer on the way back after it had been switched off for a time, even though the battery was much lower. I couldn't bring myself to exceed 10MPH though.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, TremF said:

I'm currently sat with 4 stitches above my left eye & my right arm in a sling waiting to go back for an x-ray.

I am so sorry! This is terrible news!  I sincerely hope you feel better soon. It is nice to have a wife that cares!

1 hour ago, TremF said:

If it's just the board then I have a spare I can fit but it won't be until my hand/elbow ease up.

Take your time and heal! When you do open up the wheel please take some photos of the mainboard and wiring. Does your mainboard qualify for a firmware update?

 

 

[TremF]

1 hour ago, Rehab1 said:

I am so sorry! This is terrible news!  I sincerely hope you feel better soon. It is nice to have a wife that cares!

Take your time and heal! When you do open up the wheel please take some photos of the mainboard and wiring. Does your mainboard qualify for a firmware update?

 

 

Thank you. I'm currently resting. The x-ray of my elbow showed a fracture so I have an appointment with the fracture clinic next Monday. In the meantime I have to wear the sling.

I'll take photo's when I do open it. Mine is a fairly early one from just before they introduced the 12 MOSFET boards. It's a 12 I have spare as I bought it when I was having the cutouts/drops but wasn't confident enough to change it. After changing the board in the Monster I'm more confident. I just hope the battery connecters don't bite again lol

[meepmeepmayer]

Oh dear, looks like you don't have the most luck with our beloved EUCs...

No idea what went wrong. First I thought for some reason the bump killed one phase of a mosfet (credit goes to @Carlos E Rodriguez for the info this is possible) and then it died fully later. But with a shorted mosfet the tire would be locked.

Looking forward to find out what happened. It is strange...

Also, A&E is something like emergency room? Why not xray and cast the arm right then? You have to wait a week for a further doctor visit? How strange...

[TremF]

5 hours ago, Keith said:

I honestly don't think full face protection is really needed unless you are going very fast, even at my advanced age I've managed to turn my head sideways and put out my arms the two times I've fallen at no more than  the 15MPH maximum my wheel does.

I was only traveling slowly because I thought there was a problem with the pedal & thought I would be ready but the way it dropped me off I hit my face & eye. A partial helmet may have meant I'd have hit more of my face/chin.

I still don't like the idea of wearing loads of obvious gear in case I panic others so will try & look into something more discrete.

[TremF]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Oh dear, looks like you don't have the most luck with our beloved EUCs...

No idea what went wrong. First I thought for some reason the bump killed one phase of a mosfet (credit goes to @Carlos E Rodriguez for the info this is possible) and then it died fully later. But with a shorted mosfet the tire would be locked.

Looking forward to find out what happened. It is strange...

Also, A&E is something like emergency room? Why not xray and cast the arm right then? You have to wait a week for a further doctor visit? How strange...

Two years riding & only 2 nasty spills. This being the worst. I may switch to the trusty Monster when it gets back. A smoother more luxurious ride. 

The x-ray department isn't open 24/7 unlike the A&E drop in. Not sure why there's such a long wait to see the fracture clinic. My boss has recommended I rest until I've been to the clinic so I don't make whatevers wrong worse. 

[meepmeepmayer]

Sounds like Tory NHS Broken bones really aren't anything special, which emergency room does not have an xray unless it's something special? Srsly...

I think your boss is right. At least you have a sling to keep your arms still a bit.

[zlymex]

22 hours ago, TremF said:

The ACM turns on but beeps & the wheel won't lock for balance it just turns freely. 

I hope you get well soon!
It sounds like one of the common problems of Gotway board, one of the DC-DC step-down converter failed. It happened to me once, and happened to my fellow once, lucky we didn't get hurt a bit.

21 hours ago, Keith said:

all of a sudden my wheel started swaying slowly back and forth, I felt like a was standing up in a rowing boat.

It might be the over speed tilt-back.
If the swaying is back and forth(not sideways), It might also be the 'quivering' problem(another common one) associated with the algorithm that I've also experienced many times after I hear 3 beeps warning.

[esaj]

5 hours ago, zlymex said:

I hope you get well soon!
It sounds like one of the common problems of Gotway board, one of the DC-DC step-down converter failed. It happened to me once, and happened to my fellow once, lucky we didn't get hurt a bit.

Sorry for slight off-topic, but I have Rehab1's broken ACM-board that I poked around a bit (and intend to take a closer look at later, once I get some other stuff out of the way), it had fried the MCU... I noticed there are three different step-down chips on the board, and even found a point where the voltage goes to around 145V with 75V input (a diode-cap -voltage doubler?)   Any idea why they use show many step-downs, just need lots of different voltages with higher currents? The 3.3V -voltage was done with a linear-regulator.

Couldn't get it to actually power up, as that "Where does this go" -trace runs to one of the pins on the MCU as well as the "GND?!!" -marked one, and the latter is shorted to GND (as well as the power inputs of the MCU).

[Rehab1]

29 minutes ago, esaj said:

Any idea why they use show many step-downs, just need lots of different voltages with higher currents? The 3.3V -voltage was done with a linear-regulator.

Strong work Esaj but this is beyond my purview. Won't it be great if a GW engineer would pop into the forum and answer these highly technical questions. It would be so educational!

Can you please take a photo of the label on the board that depicts the date it was manufactured? To bad we cannot analyse the firmware being that board was manufactured before the all of the issues began occurring. 

[esaj]

4 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Strong work Esaj but this is beyond my purview. Won't t be great if a GW engineer were to pop in on the forum and answer these highly technical questions. It would be so educational!

Can you please take a photo of the label on the board that depicts the date it was manufactured? To bad we cannot analyse the firmware being that board was manufactured before the all of the issues began occurring. 

[radial]

Ouch, sorry to hear about your accident, TremF .  Based on personal experience, they probably aren't going to put you in a cast with an elbow fracture.  My orthopedist told me they try not to do that with elbows because completely immobilizing the joint for 6-8 weeks can result in an elbow that you'll never be able to straighten again.  I guess it depends partly on the type of fracture.  If you shattered the bone, then obviously they couldn't leave your arm flopping around.  But with a simple, non-displaced fracture, I bet they tell you to keep it in a sling for a while.

I agree with your conclusions about protective equipment.  I hate the extra bother involved in suiting up, but these vehicles can be unforgiving.  I don't care so much about the possibility of making other people nervous.  If my gear makes them a little apprehensive, that's not such a bad thing in my opinion.  Better for all concerned if they don't underestimate the potential for damage involved with our interactions while moving through 3-D space.

Hope you heal up soon!

[zlymex]

2 hours ago, esaj said:

Sorry for slight off-topic, but I have Rehab1's broken ACM-board that I poked around a bit (and intend to take a closer look at later, once I get some other stuff out of the way), it had fried the MCU... I noticed there are three different step-down chips on the board, and even found a point where the voltage goes to around 145V with 75V input (a diode-cap -voltage doubler?)   Any idea why they use show many step-downs, just need lots of different voltages with higher currents? The 3.3V -voltage was done with a linear-regulator.

I have not examined my board(V3s+, 84V version) yet, but it is slight different than the ACM version. I suppose these(at least three) DC-DC converters are for different uses. In the case of my bad board, the internal 5V and 3.3 must be bad. In the case of my fellow's which is also a 84V version, the other 5V(for USB, light?) is died, but the wheel is in perfect balancing condition.
There is a 12V(or 15V?) output for MOSFET drivers ICs(IR2184S). 

BTW, the markings on the board is remarkable, and the 145V point is indeed peculiar.

[esaj]

1 hour ago, zlymex said:

I have not examined my board(V3s+, 84V version) yet, but it is slight different than the ACM version. I suppose these(at least three) DC-DC converters are for different uses. In the case of my bad board, the internal 5V and 3.3 must be bad. In the case of my fellow's which is also a 84V version, the other 5V(for USB, light?) is died, but the wheel is in perfect balancing condition.

That's ok, just thought you might have more insight into it. I guess you could claim that it's "more safe" to have separate step-downs for different things, as something like the USB shorting and destroying the step-down won't (as likely) affect other parts, like in your friends' case?

 

Quote

There is a 12V(or 15V?) output for MOSFET drivers ICs(IR2184S). 

I scraped off the coatings (they get soft with IPA, but don't entirely dissolve in it, I tried soaking the board, but that didn't really work, it needs mechanical brushing)  and wrote down the chips too:

DK1203    AC-DC Switch Mode Power Controlling IC    http://grupoautcomp.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/Specification-IC-DK1203.pdf  (I guess the "AC" here means it can withstand high voltages, the typical application sample in the datasheets shows a rectification bridge before the chip)

XL7005A   0.4A 150KHz 80V Buck DC to DC Converter  http://www.xlsemi.com/datasheet/XL7005A datasheet-English.pdf

SM7025   Some sort of buck/boost controller-chip, haven't found an English datasheet   https://wenku.baidu.com/view/0d41c4370b1c59eef8c7b4c5.html

AMS1117-3.3 3.3V linear regulator    http://www.advanced-monolithic.com/pdf/ds1117.pdf

PC817 optoisolator / photocoupler    http://www.sharp-world.com/products/device-china/lineup/data/pdf/datasheet/pc817xnnsz_e.pdf

STM32 F103C8T6  MCU   http://www.st.com/content/ccc/resource/technical/document/datasheet/33/d4/6f/1d/df/0b/4c/6d/CD00161566.pdf/files/CD00161566.pdf/jcr:content/translations/en.CD00161566.pdf

ACS709LLFTR-35BB-T   75A Current sensor on two phases (also, looks like a 1 milliohm bypass resistor in parallel with them)   http://www.allegromicro.com/~/media/Files/Datasheets/ACS709-Datasheet.ashx

IR2184S  Half-bridge drivers x 3  http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir2184.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355c955e616d4

MPU-6050   Gyro/accelerometer    https://www.invensense.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MPU-6000-Datasheet1.pdf

The mosfets are IRFB4110's (TO-220's), 12 in total, 2 in parallel (there's no resistors or ferrites between the gates of parallel mosfets)    http://www.infineon.com/dgdl/irfb4110pbf.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a401535615a9571e0b

 

Quote

BTW, the markings on the board is remarkable, and the 145V point is indeed peculiar.

Yeah, that high-voltage point was a bit of surprise, not sure why it's there. It's right next to the DK1203, which is said to be "AC-DC switch mode controller", but a quick glance at the datasheet showed that the typical application has a full-bridge rectifier, so I guess it just means it can handle high voltages.

There's more pics & ramblings in Rehab1's ACM autopsy -thread, but I haven't touched the board much lately:

 

[Rehab1]

On 7/4/2017 at 11:33 AM, TremF said:

Not sure why there's such a long wait to see the fracture clinic. My boss has recommended I rest until I've been to the clinic so I don't make whatevers wrong worse. 

Have you heard anything? If it is not to late ask for a copy of the X-rays both pre and post op (if you have surgery) . I'm at an orthopedic clinic on Friday and could share your X-rays with the orthopedists for their input. You could take a photo of the xray using your phone. Best in an area where there is no glare. If they give you a CD that would be better yet for downloading.

[TremF]

39 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Have you heard anything? If it is not to late ask for a copy of the X-rays both pre and post op (if you have surgery) . I'm at an orthopedic clinic on Friday and could share your X-rays with the orthopedists for their input. You could take a photo of the xray using your phone. Best in an area where there is no glare. If they give you a CD that would be better yet for downloading.

I think with our NHS things are different in the UK. I never actually saw my x-rays let alone got a copy/photo.

I won't know any more until I go to the fracture clinic. In the meantime I know it hurts, I have limited movement & I'm struggling to adjust myself while resting. If I wanted to go back to work I couldn't because I'd struggle dressing & getting a coat on & would only be able to work left handed (still painful) in the office & would risk making things worse & slowing recovery.

What makes things worse is my Monster is back & I can't even unbox it let alone ride so this is painful mentally too.

[TremF]

4 hours ago, radial said:

Ouch, sorry to hear about your accident, TremF .  Based on personal experience, they probably aren't going to put you in a cast with an elbow fracture.  My orthopedist told me they try not to do that with elbows because completely immobilizing the joint for 6-8 weeks can result in an elbow that you'll never be able to straighten again.  I guess it depends partly on the type of fracture.  If you shattered the bone, then obviously they couldn't leave your arm flopping around.  But with a simple, non-displaced fracture, I bet they tell you to keep it in a sling for a while.

I agree with your conclusions about protective equipment.  I hate the extra bother involved in suiting up, but these vehicles can be unforgiving.  I don't care so much about the possibility of making other people nervous.  If my gear makes them a little apprehensive, that's not such a bad thing in my opinion.  Better for all concerned if they don't underestimate the potential for damage involved with our interactions while moving through 3-D space.

Hope you heal up soon!

To be honest they didn't actually say where the fracture was. I have x-rays that poss covered the elbow and lower arm. All I was told was the doctor checked the x-ray, there was a fracture & to make an appointment with the clinic. I'd love to have been shown the fracture on the x-ray but, as I'm not used to being shown stuff like that - apart from with my spine problems, I didn't think to ask.

I know I can't straighten my arm, apply any pressure & that I get a lot of pain around 3-4 inches down from the elbow so need to rest in a good supported position.

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, TremF said:

I think with our NHS things are different in the UK. I never actually saw my x-rays let alone got a copy/photo.

I won't know any more until I go to the fracture clinic. In the meantime I know it hurts, I have limited movement & I'm struggling to adjust myself while resting. If I wanted to go back to work I couldn't because I'd struggle dressing & getting a coat on & would only be able to work left handed (still painful) in the office & would risk making things worse & slowing recovery.

Sorry buddy! For some reason I thought you were being seen today. When are you scheduled?

You will need to personally ask for a copy of your xrays but they will provide copies even in the UK. The ortho specialist will probably order more xrays as evaluating a scaphoid fx requires multiple views. They should then sit down with you and discuss their findings. Don't be intimidated. Doctors are human too. Unfortunately some are ass hole primadonnas!

[Scatcat]

On 2017-07-04 at 10:18 AM, TremF said:

I don't wear safety gear because in 2 years riding I've only had 2 spills that caused injury until now. I'll look at a helmet and wrist, elbow pads at the least but I generally rude at a sedate pace & I don't want others seeing me all padded up & worrying if I could injure them too. Especially as it's a full face helmet that's required really for EUC. As well as the cut I also have grazing to my check & jaw that a normal helmet wouldn't stop.

You're an adult, you do as you wish.

It is a given that we will all fall off our UECs at one time or the other. The odds are so high, that you might as well take it for granted. That one time we can't walk away with just some bruises, that time is when the only thing that saves us is the protection we wear.

Also consider this: If you'd had a good splinted wrist-guard and elbow padding on, you would probably be sore but without a fracture. An open faced helmet wouldn't have saved you from the stitches, but had you hit the curb or a rock, stitches would have been the least of your concerns. Actually, you probably wouldn't be concerned with anything ever again. Personally I'm rather fond of my brain, and I know my SO would haunt me in eternity if I robbed our kids of a father by not wearing protection.

So do as you wish. But..., just sayin'

[radial]

59 minutes ago, TremF said:

To be honest they didn't actually say where the fracture was. I have x-rays that poss covered the elbow and lower arm. All I was told was the doctor checked the x-ray, there was a fracture & to make an appointment with the clinic. I'd love to have been shown the fracture on the x-ray but, as I'm not used to being shown stuff like that - apart from with my spine problems, I didn't think to ask.

I know I can't straighten my arm, apply any pressure & that I get a lot of pain around 3-4 inches down from the elbow so need to rest in a good supported position.

This sounds very familiar!  I didn't get a decent night's sleep for the first week or so.  Even though you can arrange the arm in a reasonably comfortable position, as soon as you fall asleep and start to move, the pain wakes you up.  Ugh.  

One interesting thing I learned from the doc is that you should avoid taking NSAIDs at this stage of things.  They might take the edge off the pain, but unfortunately, inflammation is a part of the bone healing process.  Suppress it and you can slow down the process.  You should be okay with Tylenol, but stay away from Aleve, Motrin, Advil, etc.  

Even if you had the x rays, those things are hard to read!  Once my doc pointed out the fracture line I could see it, but he does this stuff for a living.  Based just on your description of symptoms, though, I would guess you fractured the head or neck of the radius bone up near the elbow joint.  Let us know what the bone doctor says, and feel better soon.

[TremF]

5 minutes ago, radial said:

This sounds very familiar!  I didn't get a decent night's sleep for the first week or so.  Even though you can arrange the arm in a reasonably comfortable position, as soon as you fall asleep and start to move, the pain wakes you up.  Ugh.  

One interesting thing I learned from the doc is that you should avoid taking NSAIDs at this stage of things.  They might take the edge off the pain, but unfortunately, inflammation is a part of the bone healing process.  Suppress it and you can slow down the process.  You should be okay with Tylenol, but stay away from Aleve, Motrin, Advil, etc.  

Even if you had the x rays, those things are hard to read!  Once my doc pointed out the fracture line I could see it, but he does this stuff for a living.  Based just on your description of symptoms, though, I would guess you fractured the head or neck of the radius bone up near the elbow joint.  Let us know what the bone doctor says, and feel better soon.

Cheers for the heads up on the anti inflammatories.

Normally for pain I have my tramadol & for the nerve pain in my neck & shoulder I have amitriptyline. I sometimes top up with paracetamol & ibuprofen if I know it's going to be a busy day but this week has just been paracetamol or paracetamol with caffeine for my headaches too. We don't have any ibuprofen in at the moment but that sounds like a good thing. 

I'm hoping my wife can come with me to the fracture clinic as she's done nursing & care work so will ask questions I wouldn't think of & understand/remember what I'm told better.

For some reason before my spine op I was having problems taking in & retaining info. It seems a little better since but I'm still not the same.

Thanks again.

[TremF]

Update...

I went to the fracture clinic yesterday & had a 2nd x-ray which confirmed I've fractured my radial head. Luckily it's a s clean fracture so shouldn't take long to heal. They've given me a decent sling to wear for the next 3 weeks then I have to go back to have it checked & be assessed for physio.

This morning I go for my stitches out. Hopefully it'll mean I can start back a the sauna/steam room again as I usually visit those to help with my ongoing health issues &, hopefully, they'll help ease my extra pains.

I still haven't opened the ACM but after seeing mention of hall sensor failure beeps in another thread I managed to find the Gotway Warning Beep thread and it does seem a possibility I have a hall sensor problem from what I remember of the beeps when I turned it on after the cut out.

I'm still hoping for a loose connection but if it's the hall sensors then will this be fixed with a board change or...?

I'm trying not to think too much about the incident as I'm worried it'll knock my confidence for getting back on eventually. Especially thinking about the size & weight of the Monster.

I'll have protective gear but with since this my neck (where I had one op on my spine & could need another eventually) has been more painful & grating/cracking as I move it plus I've been having more headache's. It could be the last, paper, sling aggravated it and it will ease with the new, much better, one but not much I can do can stop my neck from serious damage/injury if I have another/worse fall.

The EUC is my mobility & keeps me sane so I don't want to loose confidence.