Marty Backe Posted May 20, 2017 Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/18/2017 at 4:13 PM, Rehab1 said: Thanks buddy! I just need another 3- 4 hours to finish up a few items! I keep making progress and best of all...no extra screws so far! Love your educational videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 On 5/19/2017 at 11:27 PM, Marty Backe said: Love your educational videos Thanks Marty. I am getting really close now. @meepmeepmayer wanted a video of me soldering and connecting the new bullet connectors. The connectors are extremely solid. They can carry up to 100 amps each. I have also double insulated the connectors. Unfortunately my hall sensor wires are short by 6" ( a claim my wife makes often) I found a simple remedy....no not that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 12 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Unfortunately my hall sensors wires are short by 6" ( a claim my wife makes often) I found a simple remedy....no not that! So, NOT a hall sensor wire pump? Just trying to clarify... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 14 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: The connectors are extremely solid. They can carry up to 100 amps each. Those Castle Connectors are the Bomb! I'm going to start using them for everything. I also do RC, and they help on the larger batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 16 minutes ago, SuperSport said: So, NOT a hall sensor wire pump? Just trying to clarify... Ah...what is hiding under your bed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Thank you! Watching now (well, very soon). Does this mean the wheel is up and running now? 27 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: The connectors are extremely solid. They can carry up to 100 amps each. But how much amps can the cables carry? Tried looking up 14 and 16 AWG maximum continuous current, but no conclusive result (somewhere it says 7 amps but that can't be right, my ACM is at 10 amps already for flat riding around 20 km/h, and 20 when going up a steep-but-far-from-extreme incline). How much continuous (not just a short spike) current is ok for the old motor cable (16 AWG)? How much for the new, thicker 14 AWG motor cables? Do you have to divide the current number the app gives you (wheellog is awesome) by 3 cables because there's 3 motor cables? Any information is appreciated, I'm currently (no pun intended, wait for it) monitoring the current number on rides and want to know which number is fine (continuously) and which number is not. -- @SuperSport You are stealing @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's job, doesn't he usually make such comments? What will he do now? Poor guy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 2 minutes ago, Rehab1 said: Ah...what is hiding under your bed Oh, do NOT look under MY bed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, meepmeepmayer said: @SuperSport You are stealing @Hunka Hunka Burning Love's job, doesn't he usually make such comments? What will he do now? Poor guy... I'm SURE he'll still figure out something to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 You might be right with that For others, an unsurmountable obstacle, for him merely a leisurely challenge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 18 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: How much for the new, thicker 14 AWG motor cables? Do you have to divide the current number the app gives you (wheellog is awesome) by 3 cables because there's 3 motor cables? Oh man @meepmeepmayer.,.and I was having a good day? Yes 20 amps for 14 awg is the standard. There is never going to be 100 amps running through the motor wires but in my opinion...The Bigger The Better . Sorry for the simplistic answer. @esaj...need some help over here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 That's what we in upper management call "Delegation of duties," meeper. You subliminally corrupt the minds of your fellow forum visitors to eventually take over these self-propagating tasks for you while you partake in other more essential duties like influencing people to add more smilies, purchasing more EUCs than they really need, baking fresh bread in your new breadmaker, and generally steering things in the direction that you want. Didn't you take Evil Emperor 101 back in university? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 1 minute ago, Rehab1 said: Oh man @meepmeepmayer.,.and I was having a good day? Yes 20 amps for 14 awg is the standard. There is never going to be 100 amps running through the motor wires but in my opinion...The Bigger The Better . Sorry for the simplistic answer. @esaj...need some help over here! Haha sorry. Just asking So 20 amps is ok for 14 AWG. What would you say is a number that is NOT ok? Anything above 20? Any idea how much safety margin there is? Same question for the 16 AWG of us lowly pre-improvement buyers? I finally understood that in the end, it was the current that melted my original (badly managed) cables, so I want to know which number is fine, where it starts getting sketchy, when it is dangerous, to get a feeling for that. I can then check that vs % incline, speed etc. @esaj Hello Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 6 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Haha sorry. Just asking So 20 amps is ok for 14 AWG. What would you say is a number that is NOT ok? Anything above 20? Any idea how much safety margin there is? Same question for the 16 AWG of us lowly pre-improvement buyers? I finally understood that in the end, it was the current that melted my original (badly managed) cables, so I want to know which number is fine, where it starts getting sketchy, when it is dangerous, to get a feeling for that. I can then check that vs % incline, speed etc. @esaj Hello I mostly go by this table, but do read what it says above it (conservative numbers, differences between power transmission and chassis wiring): http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm For most applications, the skin depth shouldn't matter much (then again, the motor current IS pulsed by something like a 6-8kHz PWM, and since the skin-depth is for sine-wave you get... a big bunch of sinewaves, minus the effect of cable stray inductance and the motor coils, umm... just nevermind it )... Bigger should never hurt, as long as you can fit it in place and it's not too big for the connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 13 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: That's what we in upper management call "Delegation of duties," meeper. You subliminally corrupt the minds of your fellow forum visitors to eventually take over these self-propagating tasks for you while you partake in other more essential duties like influencing people to add more smilies, purchasing more EUCs than they really need, baking fresh bread in your new breadmaker, and generally steering things in the direction that you want. Didn't you take Evil Emperor 101 back in university? Chapeau! My university specialized more in perfidious backstabbing, which is why I have to warn you about your method. If you let other people do all your work, technically they don't need you, so be careful or you may be deposed suddenly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 21 minutes ago, Hunka Hunka Burning Love said: Didn't you take Evil Emperor 101 back in university? Damn Hunka, you spell has no bounds! I was forced to change the name of the topic...again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 @esaj Thank you! -- Crazy how big the difference is: 22A for 16AWG, 32A for 14AWG. 32 is a much nicer number if you already get to see 20 in regular use. Hmm, it also says this is for free air wires, and the motor cable bundle means less A allowed then. HMMMMMMMMM... So 20 is a safe number for the old guard? Would you trust 30 with the new cables, or might some other part break then? Anybody know what wires sizes Kingsong uses nowadays? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab1 Posted May 22, 2017 Author Share Posted May 22, 2017 29 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Same question for the 16 AWG of us lowly pre-improvement buyers? My understanding is that GW increased the awg of the motor wires only for future proofing. With the wiring updates currently in place you should not be any issues with your wheel. Working on helicopters for over 20 years makes me lean towards the aviation side of exceeding all tolerance levels. That is the only reason I am modifying my ACM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: @esaj Thank you! -- Crazy how big the difference is: 22A for 16AWG, 32A for 14AWG. 32 is a much nicer number if you already get to see 20 in regular use. Hmm, it also says this is for free air wires, and the motor cable bundle means less A allowed then. HMMMMMMMMM... So 20 is a safe number for the old guard? Would you trust 30 with the new cables, or might some other part break then? Magic-8 ball says: "outlook good". There's no definite number where things go south, it's not like the cables are going to catch fire at 23A and work just fine at 22A or such. Mostly it's a matter of the resistances, causing voltage drop and thus power loss as heat in the wire. If the current's pulsed instead of continuous the wire also has time to cool down between the pulses, if the wires are in a bundle they keep each other warm/hot instead of dissipating more of the heat in the surrounding air etc. It's a sum of many things. The typical weak spots are more often the connectors and the solder joints than the wires itself. If the sheathing starts to melt, yeah, that's too much 3 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Anybody know what wires sizes Kingsong uses nowadays? Haven't checked, this is the best pic I could find in a hurry: Looks like it could be similar gauge as the battery wires (marked as 14AWG) but hard to say for sure. The batteries & motor phases all use MT-60's as connectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said: Haha sorry. Just asking So 20 amps is ok for 14 AWG. What would you say is a number that is NOT ok? Anything above 20? Any idea how much safety margin there is? Same question for the 16 AWG of us lowly pre-improvement buyers? I finally understood that in the end, it was the current that melted my original (badly managed) cables, so I want to know which number is fine, where it starts getting sketchy, when it is dangerous, to get a feeling for that. I can then check that vs % incline, speed etc. @esaj Hello I Ann sure your copper wires did not melt. It was the solder, then wire came out of connector, then some arching and lost or heat melting insulation and if phases insulation shorted then possible wire meltdown but by then the BMS would have triggered and cut power off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Carlos E Rodriguez said: I Ann sure your copper wires did not melt. It was the solder, then wire came out of connector, then some arching and lost or heat melting insulation and if phases insulation shorted then possible wire meltdown but by then the BMS would have triggered and cut power off. Also it is not continuous current. It s pulsed at the PWM frequency. Heat does not move that fast either. I am sure worst case is you are going up hill for a long time wires feet really hot. Worst case of insulation reaches meltingnpoint of 200deg a short to the frame or another wire might occur with a subsequent arch flash. But not because the wires melted. Copper melting point is 1,900 degrees. Let's talk fact and not ferry tales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 @Carlos E Rodriguez The connectors were fine. They survived the current. The wires melted through their plastic insulation and shorted each other. The current directly melted the wires. It wasn't even so close to the connectors. (whether or not the lack of heat sleeve and bad cable management that I had played a notable role, I don't know) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 I just want to monitor the current while trying inclines, so I needed a number what current is safe to compare to. For now, 20A for the older wiring seems to be that number. I'll also monitor the current on the route I know works and see what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted May 22, 2017 Share Posted May 22, 2017 Don't know. 20 amps X 67 volts is 1340 watts. 20 amps x 84volts is. 1680 wats. I don't know how many watt it takes to push say 15deg and 100kg. I am sure some simple physics math but have not done that in a long time. I would say the high currents are not continuous and more likely are surges on sudden acceleration and sudden leans due to rough terrain. It would be great to have someone calculate how many watts it takes to move a mass against gravity a different inclines. If i have time i will pull my physics book and figure out or post the questions on a math forum. Now that being said, if the connection are made poorly, all bets are off. All the cable issues I have seen are due to por workmanship. SIDE NOTE: if some of the failure are truly melted solder or melted insulation, we have a serious problem regardless unless they all are workmanship related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 Here is my MSuper V3 820Wh going down and then back up my driveway. My driveway is VERY steep. I ride it often, but not for long distances. Over 3000 Watts running through motor either powering wheel or recharging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted May 23, 2017 Share Posted May 23, 2017 7 minutes ago, SuperSport said: Here is my MSuper V3 820Wh going down and then back up my driveway. My driveway is VERY steep. I ride it often, but not for long distances. Over 3000 Watts running through motor either powering wheel or recharging. That an amazing amount of power. Assuming a 4P battery pack that is 3240/67 = about 12 amps on each 1p or 48 amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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