Roll Model Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 6 minutes ago, Mono said: For me, only to figure out where the leaks in a tube are, I often need to scrutinise the entire tube while using a water bath or liquid soap to accelerate the process. Yeah, that can be an issue - But if you don't do all that, don't disassemble it all right away you can often find the problem. When that is the case you can fix it with out a lot of BS. You can use a wax/grease crayon to mark the hole when you find it Often you can see the thorn or glass or nail or what ever, sometimes you can hear/feel it hissing (add more air!). You should generally ensure that what ever punctured your tube is not still embedded in the tire casing, so you will have to 'find the problem' if you can. It is the slow leaks that are the real pains in the butt. A good strong hole is easier to find and easy to fix. You can use the water bath method with the wheel still mounted to the EUC...Often you can find it by ear with no water. If you do take your wheel out of the EUC and the tire off the rim, then take some time to make sure the inside of the rim is very smooth or covered with a rim strip - That way you can confine your punctures to the rolling surfaces of the tube... Use talcum powder before assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 (edited) 6 hours ago, Roll Model said: When you ask a quantitative question the answers become rather meaningless However, quantitative questions are more often than not the only meaningful questions. The question is not whether 120g added weight makes the ride less efficient, which it surely trivially does. The question is whether 120g added weight makes a difference of 0.1W or 1W or 10W or 100W on average. The answer is probably closer to 0.1W than to 1W. On the other hand, if you have a Kevlar protected high-end puncture-proof tire on your wheel I concur that there is no need to worry about Slime. I don't think though that that's what I have on mine. Edited December 25, 2016 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roll Model Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 24 minutes ago, Mono said: However, quantitative questions are more often than not the only meaningful questions. The question is not whether 120g added weight makes the ride less efficient, which it surely trivially does. The question is whether 120g added weight makes a difference of 0.1W or 1W or 10W or 100W on average. The answer is probably closer to 0.1W than to 1W. On the other hand, if you have a Kevlar protected high-end puncture-proof tire on your wheel I concur that there is no need to worry about Slime. I don't think though that that's what I have on mine. 120 gram added to the tire may not be trivial if you accelerate and decelerate constantly - At a steady pace I guess it would matter less... It really depends on other parameters to determine how it plays into the over all equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 8 hours ago, Roll Model said: But of the two methods discussed above I would drop the entire wheel by pulling the axle and leaving both side covers and as much of the electrics untouched a possible Pulling the axle sounds like a good idea....we just need a hydraulic press at home! Like @Scully said ...i also would like to see that 8 hours ago, Roll Model said: You don't have to replace a tube because it got punctured! Just patch the dam thing. On most these wheels there is plenty of room to remove just a small portion of the tube (at the affected spot) with out even removing the wheel or even the tire. There is simply no need to remove the tire from the rim to patch a tube. 3 minutes and 50 cents later you're off! Damn! how do i know where the puncture is? So that i remove only that portion of the tube? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roll Model Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 10 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: Pulling the axle sounds like a good idea....we just need a hydraulic press at home! Like @Scully said ...i also would like to see that Damn! how do i know where the puncture is? So that i remove only that portion of the tube? "Pulling the Axle"...Not sure of that reference? Like I said, if you can't you can't. I have an MTB buddy and patching a tube is well beyond his capabilities - He simply can't do it, even after 20 years of ridding. You can often SEE THE THORN, THE GLASS, THE NAIL if you look. But you need to find the leak as the first order of business. I guess you have to have a positive open mind because if you have convinced yourself that it will be impossible to find and so don't really try... Blow up the tire and listen for a hiss? Blow up the tire and feel for a hiss? Blow up the tire and squirt it with a water bottle..? You did say it had an leak, right? 99% of the holes will be on the ridding surface of the tube (less than 25% of the tube) so it really isn't that tough. There is a hole, most the time you can see it, you will always be able to feel air escaping from it and it will be making a noise. Check the stem for leaks if you can't find a thorn, glass, nail, hole or jet blast... You see the picture I posted of the sew up tires? That's about as much as ever got opened at one time and in that case you could not remove the tube from the tire to examine it - You had to figure out where the leak was before you CUT INTO THE TIRE If you look, you will find the leak. Pump up the tire, you'll find it. You may have to sniff it out, you can feel and smell the breeze, but in any case, if there is a leak it can't really hide. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 (edited) 21 hours ago, Roll Model said: 120 gram added to the tire may not be trivial if you accelerate and decelerate constantly Some time ago I read an article about the question of importance of mass being in the bicycle wheel vs in the frame. It concluded that the difference is somewhat overrated. Specifically, IIRC, it concluded that 120g in the wheel has no more effect (and generally less) than 240g in the frame. It might be related to the fact that the speed over ground of any part of the wheel is no more than twice the speed of the bicycle frame (maximal speed is assumed by the top of the wheel). This means that 120g added in the tire has the same effect on acceleration/deceleration as drinking a glass of water, which I would call trivial (meaning irrelevant). The same question comes up when choosing a tire. I certainly would chose a tire which weighs 120g more than the default choice, if in exchange it reduced the probability to get a flat by a factor of two. Sure, that goes all down to quantifying personal preference. If you can repair any flat in 3 minutes your mileage might differ. Most of us can't and don't want to spend the time to work on their skill to get there. It should also be said though that preventing flat tires (instead of repairing them) is a safety feature. Edited December 26, 2016 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Westland Posted December 25, 2016 Share Posted December 25, 2016 On 12/24/2016 at 2:20 PM, Roll Model said: Lighter wheels, rims and tires et all will increase the performance of your car, your bike, your Euc...There is little to 'figure out' in regard to that, but many experiences with bikes and cars have lern't me. How much loss is unclear and it's magnitude would vary quite a bit during a typical ride. I know there are ZERO bike road racing teams that us it and the same number of Mountain bike teams - If they get a flat it can end the race for them! Lighter wheels are important where you have a suspension (which EUC's don't, unless you count your knees). The unsprung mass of your car or motorbike determine reaction times for traction, steering, etc, and any energy transmitted to the body has to be dealt with and generally scrubbed off (at some energy cost). So with a suspension it costs some energy. But with bike wheels bolted directly to the frame, or EUC's where wheel = frame, slime adds a tiny bit of angular momentum, but no friction. I doubt it even uses an extra .01W out of a charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roll Model Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Having had a bike with two sets of wheels, one for training and one for racing I can only say you have been sadly misled. The idea that weight added to the wheel is the same or similar to weight on the frame is simply wrong. I have felt the difference and seen the millage increase in changing to lighter tires on my SUV for Christ's sake. Empirical experiences have educated me. Adding a passenger to my truck makes no difference you can feel. But changing to a set of tires that weighed 50 pounds more per tire would make an obvious difference just as changing to a set that was only a few pounds lighter made a noticeable difference. Accelerating 120grams is simply not the same as carrying 120grams - When you are climbing it is the same as constantly accelerating the load over and over and over, so a static 120grams carried up a mountain is not the same. As for the comments about 'Sprung weight' vs 'un-sprung weight' - these have NOTING to do with motive force. It concerns the suspensions ability to accelerate the wheel assembly (downward) to respond to potholes in the road and absorb/control the momentum and motion (upward) caused by bumps in the road. These are parameters that allow the suspension to keep the tire in contact with the road, which aside from traction, has zero - Absolutely zero consideration of the work load being done by the vehicle. In other words, more or less un-sprung weight has no effect on how easily the car accelerates, decelerates, or rolls at a steady pace. It has only to do with the 'ride quality' - Not speed (excepting traction dependent and potential control issues). Hell, I have changed to a lighter inner tube on a bike and felt the difference, lol - This isn't even open to discussion, try it on a bike. The Micheleins on my SUV have paper thin side walls but have a larger contact zone - The millage gain was obvious over the OEM General Tire's as was the acceleration gain. Believe how you wish, try to experiment for yourself. @Chris Westland...A little knowledge doesn't help. You have some understanding of the terms but clearly have failed to grasp the concepts behind your reading - If you put the braking system 'in-board' (as they do in many race cars) all the weight of the disks' and calipers - All that gear simply doesn't go up and down with the wheel. The car will go no slower and no faster because of this. The wheel will be 'lighter' to raise and lower but the rotation weight will be unchanged...So no more or less efficient. The suspension has less weight to deal with, so it is easier/better at controlling the tires motion but the 'efficiency' of the car doesn't change on a flat smooth road - Both configurations (inboard or traditional outboard) would give the same gas consumption. Sprung and un-sprung weight are not rotational, which is the subject here and while you correctly realized that neither had anything to do with EUC's you failed to grasp the significance of that fact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roll Model Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 (edited) 11 hours ago, Mono said: it concluded that 120g in the wheel has no more effect (and generally less) than 240g in the frame. So the report claimed that a pound in the wheels was similar to two pounds on the frame...So of all the weight on your bike you could shed the "weight in the wheel" is worth TWICE what ever other weight you could shed...On vehicles where grams cost $100's and $100's of dollars you may have misunderstood the reports 'findings' lol But adding 120grams to the axle ("the wheel") is not the same as adding 120grams to the tire. So the report proves the most 'important' weight you can remove to increase the performance would be in the tires by a 2:1 ratio! Race cars use 'Mags' not steel wheels, right? They don't use slime even though a flat could cost them millions. How come? If you can't patch a tube reliably then the conversation is a bit moot. If you can't find the leak then your ability to patch is irreverent. Since we don't race EUC's and almost never have to drain the battery in order to enjoy EUC's a few extra pounds added to the rotation weight would have little impact for recreation activities. A flat (even on a bike) seems to send even rational/capable people into fear and confidence that failure is the only option... Slime on! Edited December 26, 2016 by Roll Model Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 (edited) 54 minutes ago, Roll Model said: Race cars use 'Mags' not steel wheels, right? They don't use slime even though a flat could cost them millions. How come? As already said above: they don't have cheap tires. Price tag and hence production quality for race car tires are pretty much on the complete opposite side from what we have on our EUCs. Edited December 26, 2016 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 (edited) On 26/12/2016 at 3:44 AM, Roll Model said: So the report claimed that a pound in the wheels was similar to two pounds on the frame... No, the report claimed that a pound in the wheel is not worse than two pounds in the frame. There are quite obvious effects for which a pound in the wheel and a pound in the frame are equivalent, e.g. for lifting. Quote Accelerating 120grams is simply not the same as carrying 120grams Sure, only that both weights (in the frame and in the wheel) need to be accelerated, so that doesn't make the distinction between weight on the frame and weight on the wheel. On 26/12/2016 at 3:54 AM, Roll Model said: But adding 120grams to the axle ("the wheel") is not the same as adding 120grams to the tire. Sure, that is why I wrote "generally less". 120g in the axle are probably pretty indistinguishable from 120g in the frame. In this context, the axle should anyway not be considered as part of the wheels, as it doesn't move relative to the frame. Edited February 9, 2017 by Mono Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Ryan Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 On 12/13/2016 at 4:36 PM, Scully said: Anyone had a chance to fix a puncture on an Msuper V3? I've already pulled the tyre over and patched it - but a few weeks later it's flat again, I have a new inner tube on order. I've taken the covers off.... could do with some pointers from here... The big bolt in the middle is screaming to be undone - just thought i'd check here first. Where did you purchase inner tube Skully? My valve stem is bent and the valve core doesn't function properly due to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 5 hours ago, Scott Ryan said: Where did you purchase inner tube Skully? My valve stem is bent and the valve core doesn't function properly due to this. http://yorkshireairwheels.co.uk/product/18-inner-tube/ However they are currently sod out. Sorry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
who_the Posted April 20, 2017 Share Posted April 20, 2017 THANKS @Scully for the video, guided me through a tube change on my MSuper V3 with no issues or complications. Shot 4 oz. of Slime into the tube along with 2.8 bar of air. And also THANKS @NevNutz at Tec-Toyz for going above and beyond (as usual) to get me a replacement tube, stat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos E Rodriguez Posted April 21, 2017 Share Posted April 21, 2017 (edited) On 12/13/2016 at 4:42 PM, Scully said: I've done a whoopsey though. I disconnected my battery - I thought it was good practice when working on these things. I just tried to re-connect it, the 1st side (motherboard) went back fine - then 2nd side, big spark, now the XT60's are fried, I dis-connected the mother board side, dis-connected that battery then tried to re-connect the 'fried' side. The XT60's won't physically go back together. I have no idea what to do now.... Oops. You might have created a small bur of melted metal. Look inside the connectors and see if you can find the molten bur. Post pictures. If you have a jeweled file and find the bur you can file it down so the connectors can mate again. After you fix when connecting do it fast with purpose. If you do it slow you will make a arcking that lasts two long and damages the connector. Do it fast Edited April 21, 2017 by Carlos E Rodriguez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted April 21, 2017 Author Share Posted April 21, 2017 Yeah, I think thats what happened. All sorted that same day though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy152 Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 On 12/24/2016 at 1:37 PM, Roll Model said: Slime will reduce the efficiency of your rig. It adds to the energy required to accelerate your EUC and it uses additional energy to maintain a given speed... For many, getting a puncture is one of the worst things they can imagine - But the truth is that it isn't very tough to repair. A hole in your inner tube is not reason to replace the tube. Thick tubes, thick tires, "Mr. Tuffy" (http://mrtuffy.com/) protection strips, Tire Wipers (https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/components/fenders/tire-wipers/) and slime are all ways to prevent flats, but all will suck up a portion of the energy you have on tap. For many, the fear and inconvenience of getting a flat simply out weigh everything else... If you go the slime route then you will have to consider the huge mess you will have on your hands if you ever wear out or decide to upgrade your tire. ur the first to mention mr tuffy, thanks is it possible to install this without removing the inner tube as well? for some reason i'm deathly afraid of getting a flat, so thinking about multiseal which is heavy but lasts a long time and maybe mr tuffy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 I didn’t read the old thread, but the energy consumption of 125g of liquid in the tube is way too small to be noticeable on an EUC. The rotational weight is easily more than ten times that, and still a negliglible part of the overall energy consumption. And as a moving liquid it does not even slow down acceleration as much as it’s mass would indicate. Also, Slime is perfectly contained in the inner tube, so you don’t see a single drop of that stuff when replacing the outer tire. The only way it could create a mess is if the inner tube would tear beyond Slime’s sealing capability. I have yet to hear about such incident. Slime is installed without removing the tire or tube. Just remove the valve core, squeeze in Slime, clean the inside of the valve if you want to, install valve core, pump the tire. It’s a 5 minute job. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 11 hours ago, someguy152 said: ur the first to mention mr tuffy, thanks is it possible to install this without removing the inner tube as well? for some reason i'm deathly afraid of getting a flat, so thinking about multiseal which is heavy but lasts a long time and maybe mr tuffy Vast numbers of people use Slime with only positive benefits. I have videos on the subject - see my Maintenance Playlist on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy152 Posted March 26, 2020 Share Posted March 26, 2020 2 minutes ago, Marty Backe said: Vast numbers of people use Slime with only positive benefits. I have videos on the subject - see my Maintenance Playlist on YouTube. that's what i originally used, and because of you, too! just don't like the 2 yr lifetime of the product. might be better to just add multiseal 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Backe Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 On 3/26/2020 at 7:39 AM, someguy152 said: that's what i originally used, and because of you, too! just don't like the 2 yr lifetime of the product. might be better to just add multiseal I replaced an EUC tube that had Slime in it for about 2-years. The tube failed at the valve so Slime couldn't fix it. The tube looked like it had about a dozen punctures that Slime had fixed (seen by all the tiny little green spots on the tube). Inside the tube, all the Slime was still fully liquid and effective. The 2-year lifespan is an ultra-conservative estimate by the manufacturer, just like your can of beans is still fully eatable 2-years past the time stamped on the can 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
someguy152 Posted March 28, 2020 Share Posted March 28, 2020 great feedback and endorsement! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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