These EUCs are getting too expensive (including the parts)

[BKW]

This is a bit of a rant post about prices, so if you're not in the mood for it, please don't read it.

I can kind of understand the prices for a full-working EUC with the specs we get out of it. Heck, my Sherman Max has outlasted its price at this point, even considering I bought it at the time for 3.8K. But, the parts for some of these EUCs is just ridiculous to the point it make me angry. And I can already hear someone say, "well, how about you build it then", or, "some hobbies are expensive", etc. But when I look at my commander pro -- which I recently had a mishap on electronics due to my own stupidity -- I see the control board which is no bigger than 2 inches by 4 inches and it costs 450.00 not including shipping or taxes! That just makes me MAD when I see that. I feel a sharp and intense anger rise in me: "How can something this small be THIS expensive!?".

I think at this point we all know the parts for EUCs are expensive, but at what point do we say, "dude, this is out-of-control expensive". Seriously. And it's not just control boards. It's everything EUC-related. A piece of small plastic will run you 40 dollars or more. It makes me want to fix the EUCs then sell them just so I don't have to keep experiencing the money hemorrhage for parts, etc.

I've always bought beater cars. And yes, I haven't had a car for a bit and haven't done any repairs on a car for a bit, but I remember thinking, "Wow, 1K to replace the transmission!? I hope THAT never happens to me", and then something happens on my EUC -- a part that is 2"X4" and it's HALF the price of a car transmission. Like WTF.

I think I'm going to fix my KS16X and sell it. Once I get out of my need to have more than two EUCs for work-related purposes, I might just narrow all of them down to one and never buy another again. The prices are just crazy for these things to buy and especially to replace parts.

 

Edited January 31 by BKW

[GottaWay]

I know you said it and don't want hear it, but it's an expensive hobby relying on niche companies and parts.

At least companies like Inmotion are seemingly trying to standardize parts across multiple models. That should help decrease parts cost and increase availability while prolonging part availability.

[Scubadragonsan]

I hear you! Everyone's finance, disposable income varies. If one feels this hobby become too expensive, naturally one would seek another hobby. Riding EUC is not a must for anyone. Fortunately, for me, it's very practical and fun. I use it to and fro work daily. It saves me money and time. As prices increase over the years and they will. EUCs might become less affordable. Lower sales will alert EUC sellers of something--price too high, people not interested, needs more promotion...whatever the case maybe. I feel at this  point, it's still an "elite" hobby which means it's reserved for those with the cash! In the future, if they become too expensive, I might quit using them too. But for now, I have 8 of them, at 64 years of age, they will probably outlast me! Of course, I wish they don't! Work hard, make money and play hard!

[mhpr262]

Yeah, a V10F costs like 1500€ where I live.... and a new battery pack costs around 1100€. The prices for spare parts are insane.

[Funky]

Bigger wheel - bigger price point - bigger part price. All as it should be. I see nothing wrong..  

Jokes aside - yes it's expensive.

 

Luckily for me i don't need overpowered behemoth euc that cost 3000-5000$. I'm okay with anything under 2000$. My specific size wheel and power will never be over 2000$. At least not anytime near future..

And as i don't spend $$$ for anything almost. (I don't drink/smoke/party, etc..) If i wanted i could buy new euc every month. But if i had to do that.. I would also sell my EUC and leave it. Or buy cheap ass scooter..

Edited February 1 by Funky

[Whalesmash]

Low volume specialty electronics will always be like this. A 3D printer has at least covered a good amount of the small plastic stuff that would otherwise add up very quickly, but when it comes to motherboards and what not, I hear you. 

[alcatraz]

Try to fix the parts rather than replace them. 

My control board blew up at 9000km and I'm riding the same board now at over 13500km. I bought the wheel with 5000km on the clock so I've done more km on it repaired than original.

I added extra fans. Locktite'd the mosfets, replaced banana connectors, heatshrinked exposed cables, added balance leads. It all helps to keep the thing working properly.

I fixed a massive crack in the shell too with some jbweld type stuff, two compnonent glue and metal brackets cut into shape with a dremel.

I like that an euc can be disassembled on a floor indoors instead of a garage. It's truly a people's vehicle. I think we can rethink some of these repair procedures to fit that. Not go with car repair procedures automatically.

[BKW]

17 hours ago, GottaWay said:

I know you said it and don't want hear it, but it's an expensive hobby relying on niche companies and parts.

At least companies like Inmotion are seemingly trying to standardize parts across multiple models. That should help decrease parts cost and increase availability while prolonging part availability.

Yeah, I'm being very stubborn in the sense that I truly do not want to hear it when the prices are this high... i guess this hobby is beyond what i'm willing to pay for parts

16 hours ago, Scubadragonsan said:

I hear you! Everyone's finance, disposable income varies. If one feels this hobby become too expensive, naturally one would seek another hobby. Riding EUC is not a must for anyone. Fortunately, for me, it's very practical and fun. I use it to and fro work daily. It saves me money and time. As prices increase over the years and they will. EUCs might become less affordable. Lower sales will alert EUC sellers of something--price too high, people not interested, needs more promotion...whatever the case maybe. I feel at this  point, it's still an "elite" hobby which means it's reserved for those with the cash! In the future, if they become too expensive, I might quit using them too. But for now, I have 8 of them, at 64 years of age, they will probably outlast me! Of course, I wish they don't! Work hard, make money and play hard!

You have a point. Like I said, my SherMax has outlived its initial price point in my opinion. But, I still can't get over the prices for parts. It's one of those things if you decide to keep doing it then just cross your fingers and toes that you don't have to replace anything expensive for a long, long time... but yeah, the bigger/newer EUCs might be a little out my price range and i'm in an arena that i can't truly afford... maybe i should stick to cheaper model and parts if i want to continue this "hobby"

14 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

Yeah, a V10F costs like 1500€ where I live.... and a new battery pack costs around 1100€. The prices for spare parts are insane.

geesh

14 hours ago, Funky said:

Bigger wheel - bigger price point - bigger part price. All as it should be. I see nothing wrong..  

Jokes aside - yes it's expensive.

 

Luckily for me i don't need overpowered behemoth euc that cost 3000-5000$. I'm okay with anything under 2000$. My specific size wheel and power will never be over 2000$. At least not anytime near future..

And as i don't spend $$$ for anything almost. (I don't drink/smoke/party, etc..) If i wanted i could buy new euc every month. But if i had to do that.. I would also sell my EUC and leave it. Or buy cheap ass scooter..

You're economical then -- nothing wrong with that! Personally, I still think the prices for some of these parts are "excessive", to say the least...

13 hours ago, Whalesmash said:

Low volume specialty electronics will always be like this. A 3D printer has at least covered a good amount of the small plastic stuff that would otherwise add up very quickly, but when it comes to motherboards and what not, I hear you. 

I can't justify the prices for some of these specialty electronics personally, but I understand what you mean

10 hours ago, alcatraz said:

Try to fix the parts rather than replace them. 

My control board blew up at 9000km and I'm riding the same board now at over 13500km. I bought the wheel with 5000km on the clock so I've done more km on it repaired than original.

I added extra fans. Locktite'd the mosfets, replaced banana connectors, heatshrinked exposed cables, added balance leads. It all helps to keep the thing working properly.

I fixed a massive crack in the shell too with some jbweld type stuff, two compnonent glue and metal brackets cut into shape with a dremel.

I like that an euc can be disassembled on a floor indoors instead of a garage. It's truly a people's vehicle. I think we can rethink some of these repair procedures to fit that. Not go with car repair procedures automatically.

Something about a novice like me trying to repair and depend on electronics of a wheel that can go 40+mph, which all depends on a gyroscope to keep me alive... yeah, some things I would rather not try to mess with... but, for the prices of some of these parts man, it's either pay for a new electronic part or pay for my medical bills -- either way, both expensive and around the same price lol. But seriously though, I might become an electrical engineer very soon for EUCs specifically... the college tuition might pay for itself rather than keep spending these parts...

Edited February 2 by BKW

[Mono]

I bought at some local shops

Jan 2019: V8 for 1200 EUR
Nov 2020: V8F for 1200 EUR
June 2023: V8F EVO for 1100 EUR

The price I payed went slightly down while the wheels I got became notably better over the last four+ years.

The ridiculous prices of spare parts are mainly due to the makers having in effect a monopole on the spare parts of the wheels they are making and are not unique the EUC industry. If you need a control board replacement for your wheel, there is no other place to go but the maker, so they can ask whatever we are just about willing to pay to convert a useless wreck back into an awesome wheel.

Edited February 7 by Mono

[Mrd777]

China's CPI number came out today and their economy is on a serious deflationary note, apparently it's on the fastest pace since 2009 These are extraordinary numbers, four consecutive quarters of negative numbers.  Prices are coming down in China, and this will reflect in their exports to the world. You can see this on the EUC prices on the Chinese websites. Our dealers have leverage at this point on pricing, and this SHOULD reflect on our retail prices which are over the top lately. It's hard to buy a Lynnx, ETMax and a CP Pro at these elevated levels. I'm in at sub $4k, which I'm waiting for.

[WheelGoodTime]

@Mrd777 Sadly, but the prices are still headed up - at least with one EUC brand, not sure about all of them. I understand your perspective and logically, you're right. But I've received word that higher prices are incoming very soon, beginning after the Chinese holiday - at least the cost of EUCs to dealers is going up due to 2023 not being a particularly profitable year. I dunno if that cost will be passed onto customers, but most likely that will be the case.  

Edited February 8 by WheelGoodTime

[Jason McNeil]

26 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

China's CPI number came out today and their economy is on a serious deflationary note, apparently it's on the fastest pace since 2009 These are extraordinary numbers, four consecutive quarters of negative numbers.  Prices are coming down in China, and this will reflect in their exports to the world. You can see this on the EUC prices on the Chinese websites. Our dealers have leverage at this point on pricing, and this SHOULD reflect on our retail prices which are over the top lately. It's hard to buy a Lynnx, ETMax and a CP Pro at these elevated levels. I'm in at sub $4k, which I'm waiting for.

Most of the inputs of a high-end machine like a ET-Max/Lynx is attibutable to the cost of raw elements: copper, rare-earths, nickel, & fix-priced components like the FETs/cells. If Customers are willing to sacrifice some of the performance advantages of cheaper cells, less powerful motor, fewer FETs on the board, etc, Wheels can be cheaper. IMO, it's infinitely better to spend a bit extra on trying to attain lifespan quality metrics, than shaving a few hundred in the ship-out price. 

All the CN Companies work really hard for hardly any margin at all. The worst posssible outcome, for everyone, is an Evergrande unprofitability type fallout, by sustaining operations through investment captial....  

Edited February 8 by Jason McNeil

[Cerbera]

I once phoned up Speedyfeet thinking I'd be able to upgrade to a better wheel than my 549 pound Airwheel, and was shocked at the time to find out it was nearly double that for an MS3 at the time. By the time I phoned them again to get the Master, once again we had doubled in price, and were just over the 2K mark.

And the trend continues - I may be secretly eyeing up a Lynx as my next wheel, and surprise surprise we double the price AGAIN !!

I would however, consider the latest generation of wheels, including the Master to be roughly '4 times the machine' that the Airwheel ever was, so that makes me feel less bad about the ever increasing EUC prices. Also, we spend a lot of time begging the manufacturers for higher quality this, that and the other, more speed, more batteries - better safety - and we can't have better everything for the same price of course...

It's a shame it doesn't work like computers, where the basic money stays roughly the same but the power and specs double every year regardless !

 

[Mrd777]

I certainly want to be clear that I value our dealers very much,  Jason at Ewheels has been put out huge effort to implement design and safety attributes to our EUC's. They deserve to be successful, and we would be lost without them.  Im in no such way implying they are charging too much, it's just fascinating looking at China's economy at its current state , and what deflationary pressures can do to a country. Lets see.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Cerbera said:

 

It's a shame it doesn't work like computers, where the basic money stays roughly the same but the power and specs double every year regardless !

 

Wrong... I see you haven't followed PC prices.

(I'm more into PC's than EUC's.) I have been eyeing my new PC 4000$ build for last 5+ years. (Haven't pulled the trigger of getting yet, because old one is still fine and new CPU's/Motherboards are around the corner. Maybe this year i'm gonna build it.) 

And let me tell you 10 years ago you could get banger of a PC for around 1000$. Nowadays you can't even get midrange for double the price. Top spec video cards cost around 2000$ alone now. Some years ago 600$ video cards counted as best you can get. Now 600$ cards count as midrange. 

And no power and spec don't double every year. That's the sad reality. Best you get is around 30-40% uplift on new generations. Same time we are getting 100-200$ uplift also. Meaning you get same performance as before for same amount of money.  Only way you get double performance for same price is if you upgrade your PC only once per 5-10 years. Then you get tons of performance. Because you have sipped multiple generations of releases. My PC being already 10 years old. (Multiple upgrades down the road.) The new build will increase performance about 670%. But same time i'm gonna be going from 1080P to 1440P. So that 670% will be lower because of resolution increase. Still ~7X times faster/better what i have now.

Every single part in PC have gotten way, way more expensive. Top notch motherboards where once at 200$. Nowadays 200$ boards count as beginner level. CPU's also if you want best for "gaming" you need to spend about 450$. 10 years ago my whole PC where 500$..  And if you're into editing, video making and such. CPU alone cost 700-900$... And you would want that 2000$ Video card also.

But that price is mostly to do with 1440P or 4K resolutions.. If you stay on 1080P screen and don't plan going higher, then yeah. Everything will be cheaper. As it not that hard to drive. But still it's much more expensive even what it was 5 years ago..

Not so long ago i built my sister a pc it costed around 1200$.

And 3 years ago i built my dad a pc for 2800$.

And if i compare the performance of my 500$ PC that i got 10 years ago. Sis PC are about 3x times faster. Dads PC is about 5x faster.. And if i where to build my specific PC i want/need it would cost about 2600$ Make it 3000$ as i would increase CPU/GPU power bit more if i can.. And it will be about 7x faster compared to what i have now. 3000$ vs 500$.

But in real life it would be close to 3x faster.. If we go by FPS and such numbers in games.

 

Everything is getting MORE EXPENSIVE..... Even dollar stores aren't dollar anymore.

[Marty Backe]

4 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I once phoned up Speedyfeet thinking I'd be able to upgrade to a better wheel than my 549 pound Airwheel, and was shocked at the time to find out it was nearly double that for an MS3 at the time. By the time I phoned them again to get the Master, once again we had doubled in price, and were just over the 2K mark.

And the trend continues - I may be secretly eyeing up a Lynx as my next wheel, and surprise surprise we double the price AGAIN !!

I would however, consider the latest generation of wheels, including the Master to be roughly '4 times the machine' that the Airwheel ever was, so that makes me feel less bad about the ever increasing EUC prices. Also, we spend a lot of time begging the manufacturers for higher quality this, that and the other, more speed, more batteries - better safety - and we can't have better everything for the same price of course...

It's a shame it doesn't work like computers, where the basic money stays roughly the same but the power and specs double every year regardless !

 

You think the Master is only ~4-times what the Airwheel was??? Really? 

The Mten4 is probably 4-times what the Airwheel was and it's ~$1000

We are getting exponentially more capable wheels then the linear increase in cost over the years.

I think the original 2012 Solowheel was ~$1000 (~$1300 in today's prices), could go 10-miles (with wind on your back) at 10-mph. For maybe double the Solowheel cost (in todays dollars) the Master is capable of >4-times the speed and >4-times the range.

So I contend that the prices of todays wheels is a bargain.

[Cerbera]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

You think the Master is only ~4-times what the Airwheel was??? Really? 

Well no, it's much more than 4 times the range, power and performance of what the Airwheel was, my (perhaps inarticulately expressed) point was that it only had to feel 4 times as good to justify its price, which it does by a decent margin beyond that.

[BKW]

8 hours ago, Mrd777 said:

I certainly want to be clear that I value our dealers very much,  Jason at Ewheels has been put out huge effort to implement design and safety attributes to our EUC's. They deserve to be successful, and we would be lost without them.  Im in no such way implying they are charging too much, it's just fascinating looking at China's economy at its current state , and what deflationary pressures can do to a country. Lets see.

My experience dealing with ewheels has been nothing but positive. I have nothing bad to say about them, nor any other dealer. Comparing the modern EUCs to other PEVs of the same caliber and specs, prices seem similar (from a glance). I still feel the way I do, but guess it's just a rant at the end of the day

[mhpr262]

The price of li-ion batteries is apparently set to drop massively over the next one to two years... but as long as people are willing to spend top dollars for the latest and greatest wheel that price drop will likely only mean increased profits for the manufacturer. They adapt the prices to what the markets will pay. BMW motorcycles sold in California are vastly cheaper than the same motorcycle sold at the German dealership right next to the factory in Spandau Berlin...

[Mono]

6 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

BMW motorcycles sold in California are vastly cheaper than the same motorcycle sold at the German dealership right next to the factory in Spandau Berlin...

Also know as foreign aid.

[Tomallo]

20 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

The price of li-ion batteries is apparently set to drop massively over the next one to two years... 

That's great news, any source/link though?

[mhpr262]

2 hours ago, Tomallo said:

That's great news, any source/link though?

I follow various tech sites and blogs, I dont know where exacty I read that. Must have been on either the electrek.co, insideevs.com or chargedevs.com website, or maybe the r/technology or the r/futurology subreddits.

[Mono]

30 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

I follow various tech sites and blogs, I dont know where exacty I read that. Must have been on either the electrek.co, insideevs.com or chargedevs.com website, or maybe the r/technology or the r/futurology subreddits.

What was the bases of the prediction, the mechanism by which the author expected prices to drop?

[mhpr262]

IIRC it was combination of factors - production catching up or even exceeding demand due to more factories everywhere, more streamlined and faster production methods, more competition, the price hike of raw materials abating because of the first rush of speculation being over, recycling and increased production, cheaper materials (like sodium batteries) etc.

[Mono]

1 hour ago, mhpr262 said:

IIRC it was combination of factors - production catching up or even exceeding demand due to more factories everywhere, more streamlined and faster production methods, more competition, the price hike of raw materials abating because of the first rush of speculation being over, recycling and increased production, cheaper materials (like sodium batteries) etc.

Feels like a little shaky prediction to me then. In particular, as I can't see the growth on the demand side to fade out in the next two-or-so years.

What, BTW, did you mean when you wrote "drop massively".