Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'm pretty happy with my generic EUC for the time being, but I really wish it would go farther. I've hit the crazy beeping warning mode a couple of times where a power cycle silences it long enough to limp home. I'm not looking at building a custom battery pack with BMS or anything like that, and I'd prefer to buy a premade pack to add in parallel or add in a flip switch to cut to auxiliary power if my main pack is low. I can solder and all that, but I'd like to keep it simple and reliable without doing a whole bunch of case mods etc.... Even swapping the whole pack out for a better one is an option. I'm guessing my pack must be an 88wh pack or something like that if it only can make it for 5 km tops? I've seen some replacement packs on AliExpress for about $100. What battery specs might I need to get it up to a ten km range do you think? I haven't taken apart my wheel yet, but it's on the to do list to see how much room I've got to play with. I don't want to spend a huge amount as my wheel was only about $300 CDN to begin with, but I'm at the point where 5 km is just too limiting since I worried about having enough juice to make it home. I guess it's not as simple as swapping in a Kingsong battery pack or something like that, but don't most use like standard sized 16 battery cell pack? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael de Gans Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 For a generic wheel (with probably 350 watt sustained power) you'll get 10 km easy out of a 174Wh pack. To increase your distance it is also important to decrease your friction. You might want to try a higher PSI like 45 or 50 on the tire. If the wheel pushes you back when hitting the max speed, don't keep leaning in as it will exhaust the battery quicker. Try to stay under the tilt-back. We sell the KS-14B 174Wh battery packs separately they have a standard sized battery pack inside the shell that you could fit in yours. It is a bit more expensive than 100 dollars, but we offer a year worth of warranty on the battery in case of any unexpected failure. Here are some pictures of when we opened up the battery shell to get a sense of the dimensions: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 I suggest you to buy also a "generic" pack and wire it in parallel. It will increase the safety, because if one pack fail for some reason, there other will be there. So you will get more range and safety. I plan to do the same to my generic! I am also designing a 3D printed shell to do this kind of mods :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 Thanks for the ideas and options! I'll have to crack my EUC open to see what's inside. My hoverboards go for about 10 kms so I was surprised that my EUC only makes it about 5 km per charge. I've pumped my tire up pretty high, and the rolling resistance is pretty low. When it lost air my range fell to about 4.25 kms, and it died going up a moderate grade hill. I did learn how to get back on at an incline which was a little trickier than normal. If there's enough room, would wiring the packs in parallel work out okay? Would the BMS's have any issues with balancing the charge differences between the packs or would voltage flow and level out both pretty much without an issue? I really don't want to spend too much on increasing the range as the CDN dollar sucks big time right now, and investing in a whole new wheel might be the next step rather than messing with this Generic too much more. I'm not a hardcore hardcore EUCer, but it's more like a hobby for me at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Perhaps you just Show us what EU you have...or at least The Name? then The experts here can Tell what Batterie packs will fit... without some More Info it's a Little bit difficult :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 7 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: ... I guess it's not as simple as swapping in a Kingsong battery pack or something like that, but don't most use like standard sized 16 battery cell pack? At least one brand is known which uses 15 cells in series instead of the "normal" 16 cells...so you should be sure about yours before you change something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 And: on an other Thread i Read your Charger give out 65 Volt??? Thats a little low for 16s...you Need 67 Volt?! perhaps a Charger prob? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 2 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: If there's enough room, would wiring the packs in parallel work out okay? Would the BMS's have any issues with balancing the charge differences between the packs or would voltage flow and level out both pretty much without an issue? I really don't want to spend too much on increasing the range as the CDN dollar sucks big time right now, and investing in a whole new wheel might be the next step rather than messing with this Generic too much more. I'm not a hardcore hardcore EUCer, but it's more like a hobby for me at the moment. Just to make sure we are safe here: 1:) a BMS is part of the battery pack, it will not be impacted by or have any knowledge of any other packs connected (with one exception - see below). All such packs require their own BMS to keep them balanced unless you take out a wire from every single cell and use a balance charger - this is what is always done with radio control LiPos but isn't really practical with 15-16 cell packs, so it is a definite requirement that any additional pack comes with its own BMS. I won't won't go into using series connected LiPo packs charged on RC balance chargers. 2:) If paralleling packs, it is absolutely vital that both packs are at the same voltage when connected, if not, due to the very low internal resistance of Lithium cells a stonking great current will flow from the higher voltage pack to the lower voltage pack. This current may well burn out wiring or damage the BMS, unless the BMS is sophisticated enough to current limit - most are not! 3:) from 2:) above it should be obvious that exactly the same number of series cells must be present in any packs that are paralleled, if you do not know for sure how many cells you currently have it is a non-starter, typically, but not absolutely, it is 15 or 16 cells. 4:) some people have successfully plugged an external pack into the charging socket of the wheel, that can work but there are possible issues with too high current flow through the charging wires or maybe current restriction through the BMS. Both 2:) and 3:) above must not be forgotten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jer Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 https://www.facebook.com/1radwerkstatt/photos_stream If you are in EU You could figure out what cells you have, and dimensions and speak to 1radwerkstatt. They may be able to build a battery to your requirement with the best cells. and a decent bms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 I'm in Canada, and I think a custom pack probably would be a bit costly. I bought this one when it was $229 USD with free shipping: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/New-upgrade-7th-X3-generation-wheelbarrow-electric-unicycle-scooter-self-balancing-scooter-alone-electric-skateboard/32362784596.html I'll have to open it up to take a look see at the battery pack and report back. For the price even after conversion to CDN it was a pretty good deal I thought for a starter wheel. Originally I wasn't sure about how much I would use it and even if I would like riding it, but now I'm pretty much hooked and wish I had spent a bit more on a nicer wheel. I remember checking the voltage from the charger when I first bought it, and I think it was closer to 67.2 V or just a tad higher. Now it's dropped down a bit, but I thought as long as it is over 60V it should be okay? If the battery pack is a 60 V one, a slightly higher voltage to charge should work still? It still goes to 4 red LEDs, but it only takes about 30 -45 minutes to charge. Do you need 67.2V to get a full charge? Maybe I'll wait for my Cranium 5A charger and see if it charges things up better. I've asked the seller to set it for 67.2V at 2A for my EUC as I'm not looking at fast charging. I just want a decent charge. I have a feeling though that it's probably a limitation of my battery pack that is keeping me at a 5 km range. If I do go the parallel pack route, I will make sure to charge both cells equally and measure before wiring them up. Thanks! Or I might try to modify it for a quick swap arrangement somehow or incorporate a switch to activate the backup pack... I wonder if this pack would be any better than the one I have right now. http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Original-For-SAMSUNG-Battery-Cell-60V-2200mAH-132Wh-Battery-pack-Self-balancing-electric-unicycle-18650-batteries/32626886154.html I'm going to check, but I bet that my wheel likely only has an 8 pack battery like this one... or is that a 16??? http://www.ebay.com/itm/Lithium-Battery-For-Smart-Self-Balancing-Electric-Unicycle-balance-One-Wheel-/331792257460 ------------------------------------------------------------- OKAY UPDATE WITH PHOTOS! This is my ugly but comfortable carpet underlay wrapped with packing tape that my shins love. Horrendous but functional. Peekaboo! Looks like I have a 16S 2200 mAh battery pack that looks pretty standard. I managed to do a 5.76 km trip with it on a cold, windy day. I hit a couple of low battery alerts. Not much to the brains of this self-balancing contraption. I think that two pronger might be the calibration jumper? Or maybe it's the one next to the wires to the hall sensors? All unwrapped and still sort of new thanks to the carpet underlay. I might do some small squares of underlay over the red side panels as they are hard plastic. It's nice to have a cushion to rest against the inner leg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 The specs on that battery show it to be a 16 cell 132Wh battery so, just a single set of 16 cells of 2200mAh - that certainly explains the low range. I assume, as is fairly standard, the yellow XT-60 plug is the power lead from the battery and the red Deans plug also goes to the battery but is the charging lead. If you can fit another battery inside the shell, you just need to make up a Y-lead on both the XT-60 plug and deans plug so both power and charge connections are paralleled. Your existing charger will work, it will just take twice as long to charge. Just, as I said before, make sure both batteries are At the same state of charge (same voltage) when first connected together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 That's a full generic EUC with a generic battery pack - you have luck because you can easily find from many sources that battery packs, low price and are easy to get information hw to use them in parallel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 There's no room for another pack inside the shell so I think I'll have to consider some case mods of some sort or do a quick swap arrangement if I can convert that side panel into a hinged door instead. It would be nice to be able to install a battery on the motherboard side to help even out the weight... I might buy some car door self-adhesive bumper strips to stick on the front and back ends and corners of the battery/motherboard boxes. I think for accidents that should help avoid dings to the plastic housing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 You should be able to fit a 174Wh pack in there, 16 2900mah cells, right? There's one here but not available anymore: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/High-capacity-174WH-battery-pack-for-electric-unicycle-smart-balance-scooter-free-shipping/1687418_32299130941.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted March 18, 2016 Author Share Posted March 18, 2016 Thanks for that link. I'll have to search for something similar. So for my existing battery pack, is 5.5 kms a pretty standard distance for 2200 mAh rating? What's the highest rated 16S pack in a similar size? Do all 16S packs come in a pretty standard size as long as they use the same 18650 cells? That battery bay looks perfect if the lid was hinged for a swappable battery option. I could carry a few packs in a backpack to swap out whenever a low battery situation arises. I don't know why they don't just make it a standard feature like on cordless drills, older cell phones, stuff that you don't want to sit waiting for a recharge but rather just swap a new battery into. I might look into ordering some extra connectors and make that battery bay with a receiving connector. I don't need 10 km continuous range, but rather I'd be happy just popping in a new battery for another 5 kms at a time. They should sell these battery packs with a thin hard shell and short pigtail connector plus mount the male connector in the battery compartment. Add a hinge and locking clip, and then consumers don't need to work on soldering connectors themselves! I guess though they would need to use a childproof connector or cap or something as I'd hate to imagine a kid sucking on the end of the connector and learning a very bad lesson. Even with the charging port pins on the EUC, what's to stop a kid from licking those? What the heck - are those pins live? I read about the whole metal cap danger in another thread... I might order a couple of these: http://www.aliexpress.com/item/60V-SAMSUNG-Dynamic-Lithium-ion-Battery-Pack-18650-2200mAh-for-Electric-unicycles-E-scooters-E-bikes/32317816219.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 2 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said: So for my existing battery pack, is 5.5 kms a pretty standard distance for 2200 mAh rating? What's the highest rated 16S pack in a similar size? Do all 16S packs come in a pretty standard size as long as they use the same 18650 cells? On my 14-inch generic I've gotten up to 8km, so 5.5km sounds a bit weak if you're running it all the way down until you get tilt-back or shutoff. Generic EUCs may be using cheap cells though, and sometimes even used cells! Yes, the 16S packs are about the same size because they are using 16 18650 cells and those are a standard size. Sometimes the BMS setup can be different and that can make the pack a little different in thickness once it's wrapped. They do make external packs like this one, just be sure that the internal and external batteries are the same charge before plugging it in (usually that means full charge): http://www.self-balance-scooter.com/25-self-balancing-electric-scooter-parts-external-battery-pack-solo-wheel.html I think the 174Wh is the highest I've seen for a 16-cell setup, that's using the 2900mah cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 4 hours ago, dmethvin said: I think the 174Wh is the highest I've seen for a 16-cell setup, that's using the 2900mah cells. With LG 3500mah you can go up to a 207 wh Batterie pack....from 1Radwerkstatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 7 hours ago, dmethvin said: On my 14-inch generic I've gotten up to 8km, so 5.5km sounds a bit weak if you're running it all the way down until you get tilt-back or shutoff. Generic EUCs may be using cheap cells though, and sometimes even used cells! Yes, the 16S packs are about the same size because they are using 16 18650 cells and those are a standard size. Sometimes the BMS setup can be different and that can make the pack a little different in thickness once it's wrapped. They do make external packs like this one, just be sure that the internal and external batteries are the same charge before plugging it in (usually that means full charge): http://www.self-balance-scooter.com/25-self-balancing-electric-scooter-parts-external-battery-pack-solo-wheel.html I think the 174Wh is the highest I've seen for a 16-cell setup, that's using the 2900mah cells. My custom packs are made with LG MH1's, 3200mAh (192Wh)... or if using the more precise nominal voltage of 59.2V, 189.44Wh. The largest packs I know are indeed using 3500mAh cells (like LG MJ1's) as KingSong69 mentioned above (210Wh if using 60V nominal to calculate, around 207Wh using 59.2V). EDIT: You might be having hard time trying to find such packs pre-made from somewhere like Aliexpress, as the larger capacity high-quality & high-discharge cells are costly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 WOW, I didn't know about the 3500mAh cells! I bet they are very expensive, so like you say probably hard to find pre-made packs. For a generic EUC like the one @HunkaHunkaBurningLove has it would be hard to justify a gold-plated battery pack. The lighter weight and increased range would be really nice though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 59 minutes ago, dmethvin said: WOW, I didn't know about the 3500mAh cells! I bet they are very expensive, so like you say probably hard to find pre-made packs. For a generic EUC like the one @HunkaHunkaBurningLove has it would be hard to justify a gold-plated battery pack. The lighter weight and increased range would be really nice though. Dampfakkus is a pretty good site for seeing actual test data from different cells, here's a link to the 18650-cells: http://www.dampfakkus.de/akku_liste-nach-groesse.php?size=18650 (It's in German, but you can read it with Chrome's translate-option or using Google translate or whatever) Sorting by nominal capacity/real capacity it's easy to see why I went with NCA-chemistry: they're the largest capacity cells with high outputs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 The discharge curve on NCA is so flat, even on high discharge! http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=608&a=5 Too bad that even the good quality batteries are missing their rated capacity by about 15 percent. Seems like the best you can really do is 3000mAh no matter what the label says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 1 minute ago, dmethvin said: The discharge curve on NCA is so flat, even on high discharge! http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=608&a=5 Too bad that even the good quality batteries are missing their rated capacity by about 15 percent. Seems like the best you can really do is 3000mAh no matter what the label says. Take a closer look at the graph (ends at 3.0V) and the text above: ennkapazität lt. Hersteller 3500mAh (2.5V) So you get the full capacity running it down to 2.5V, AND not using too much current (probably it should be kept to the recommended 5A continuous?) There are separate screenshots of 10A and 20A (twice the manufacturer recommended max discharge!) discharge curves at the bottom of the page, that go all the way to 2.5V, but at those discharge rates, they don't get full capacity out from them either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 Typical manufacturer get-off-now low-voltage threshold is between 50-55v, which is 3.125-3.43v/cell. In our 840Wh 14C KS Wheels, we had King Song lower this to 48v, in order to squeeze as much of the precious remaining energy out of the pack. I need to perform some more testing with these MJ1s, but on the previous generation MG1s, this had the effect of increasing the range by 14km on the same pack! Limp-home-mode (reduced responsiveness, more aggressive tilt-back) kicks in at around the 50v mark. Crazy thing about the MJ1 vs the MG1, is that not only does it pack 20% more energy but has vastly improved power peak sustianed rating as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: Typical manufacturer get-off-now low-voltage threshold is between 50-55v, which is 3.125-3.43v/cell. In our 840Wh 14C KS Wheels, we had King Song lower this to 48v, in order to squeeze as much of the precious remaining energy out of the pack. I need to perform some more testing with these MJ1s, but on the previous generation MG1s, this had the effect of increasing the range by 14km on the same pack! Limp-home-mode (reduced responsiveness, more aggressive tilt-back) kicks in at around the 50v mark. Crazy thing about the MJ1 vs the MG1, is that not only does it pack 20% more energy but has vastly improved power peak sustianed rating as well! I was seriously considering the MJ1's for my custom packs, but in the end, the price would have gone up much more than the about 10% increased capacity vs. MH1's. AFAIK, @1RadWerkstatt uses MJ1's for their high capacity custom-packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperSport Posted March 18, 2016 Share Posted March 18, 2016 I bought this as my first wheel. I got a solid 10 miles per charge. 16km. It often goes on sale for $240 or less. If you are going to pay $200 for batteries, you might as well get another wheel and have a backup. The TG F3 is not a perfect wheel, but maybe a slight upgrade to what you are currently riding with some added distance. http://www.banggood.com/Wh-TG-F3-264Electric-Wheelbarrow-Balancing-Unicycle-30-35km-Endurance-p-948467.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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