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Generic EUC Battery - What's the Best Way to Increase Range?


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LG & Samsung definitely seem like the market leaders in battery tech. I came across this nugget a couple days back, where LG Chem reveal their product pipeline.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160306000323

Vowing to lead the global EV battery market, LG Chem CEO Park Jin-soo said the company would soon roll out batteries whose driving range can outrun the Model S of U.S. electric car firm Tesla. The Model S can drive 450 kilometers on a single full charge. 

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9 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said:

LG & Samsung definitely seem like the market leaders in battery tech. I came across this nugget a couple days back, where LG Chem reveal their product pipeline.

http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20160306000323

Vowing to lead the global EV battery market, LG Chem CEO Park Jin-soo said the company would soon roll out batteries whose driving range can outrun the Model S of U.S. electric car firm Tesla. The Model S can drive 450 kilometers on a single full charge. 

Tesla's also used NCA (LiNiCoAl, Lithium-Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum) 18650-cells (from Panasonic), according to Wikipedia. The full pack forms a considerable amount of the car price, containing over 7000 cells:

The 85 kWh battery pack weighs 1,200 lb (540 kg)[72] and contains 7,104 lithium-ion battery cells in 16 modules[73] wired in series (14 in the flat section and two stacked on the front).[74] Each module contains 6 groups[75]of 74 cells[76] wired in parallel; the 6 groups are then wired in series within the module.[76][77][78][79] As of June 2012, the battery pack used modified Panasonic cells with nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathodes.[4] Each cell was of the 18650 form factor (i.e., an 18 mm diameter, 65 mm height cylinder), similar to the Panasonic NCR18650B cell that has an energy density of 265 Wh/kg.[80] Analysts estimate battery cost to be around 21–22% of the car cost.[81] List price for a replacement battery was US$44,000 in February 2015.[82]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S#Battery

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1 hour ago, SuperSport said:

I bought this as my first wheel.  I got a solid 10 miles per charge.  16km.  It often goes on sale for $240 or less.  If you are going to pay $200 for batteries, you might as well get another wheel and have a backup.  The TG F3 is not a perfect wheel, but maybe a slight upgrade to what you are currently riding with some added distance.

http://www.banggood.com/Wh-TG-F3-264Electric-Wheelbarrow-Balancing-Unicycle-30-35km-Endurance-p-948467.html

Yeah I'm quite disappointed to get only about 5.5 km on a fairly flat trip.  That "Universal" battery could just be a dud / have sand in it (!).  I might try a replacement battery first and do a swap method with the OEM one.  10 km for me is plenty as my leg muscles get a bit tired after that distance.  I was looking at those TG wheels, but I haven't seen them that cheap including shipping plus I've noticed that many places can't ship to Canada.  Looking back, $229 USD with free shipping must have made my wheel cost to be about $129 USD factoring $100 for shipping costs.  That could be why it doesn't go that far.  Buy cheap buy twice right?  I might end up selling it off and upgrading.  I would love to try an GW Mten, but they look to be hard to source.  I still have troubles wrapping my head around spending over $1000 CDN on a EUC though...

BTW I'm only about 165 lbs so I'm not a true Hunkahunka Elvis heavyweight just in case anyone is wondering if it's a weight issue!

About battery packs, has anyone purchased one of these spot welders or something similar?

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Updated-Hand-held-Spot-Welder-Welding-Machine-Laptop-Mobilephone-Battery-a-/171989464010

With Tesla's Gigafactory coming online in the future, hopefully these batteries will drop down in price.

https://www.teslamotors.com/en_CA/gigafactory

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  • 5 weeks later...

Well I received my heavy duty Cranium charger (heh that's what I refer to it as since I found the link in his 5A fast charger thread) today, and I topped up my already charged generic EUC with it.  The fan noise isn't actually bad on this beast.  It's in a nice aluminum casing and has power and charge state LEDs.  My OEM charger is still working, but it gets awfully hot charging from a low battery state.

The new charger took about five minutes to top it up, and I took the wheel for a spin.  Even though I messaged the AliExpress seller to set it at 67.2 and 2 A, they set it to 5A.  My pack is a generic 132 wh 16S which might blow up so I'll have to grab my multi-meter from work to turn it down to 2A - 3A which yeah I know sort of defeats the purpose of having a high speed charger, but my pack only takes about 30 minutes to charge with the OEM charger anyways.  I bought it just in case my OEM dies.  I did check the output voltage on it, and it read 66.3 v so I think maybe my home voltmeter is out of whack or needs a new button cell.

EDIT:  I actually had my work multimeter at home so I adjusted the amps down to 2.11 A (took several clockwise turns of the pot), but the voltage now reads 67.9 V.  I'll have to adjust that down to 67.2 V or is there a more ideal setting? 

On a side note, I ran across these 9800 mah cells which I wonder whether they might work in our EUCs in a custom pack?

12 for $17.89 CDN

 

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26 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

On a side note, I ran across these 9800 mah cells which I wonder whether they might work in our EUCs in a custom pack?

12 for $17.89 CDN

Since the highest capacity 18650 cell manufactured is 3600mAh, I wouldn't touch those with a barge pole. One 9800mAh cell (if it existed) would be the price of those 12. Although most reviewers give them 5 stars, surely, anyone who knew what they were buying wouldn't buy those in the first place? The telling reviews (IMHO) are the ones that comment that the cells are very light. 

Regarding charger voltage, check the voltage of your existing charger, if you are looking to squeeze as much range out of your pack as possible then you may need the voltage a bit higher than 67.2v if your charging circuit has a protection diode in it which, depending on type may drop 0.6V across it. Alternatively, as discussed in the below thread, a lower charge voltage will reduce range but stress the cells less allowing them to age less in use and last longer as long as you also do not deep discharge them: 

 

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40 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Well I received my heavy duty Cranium charger (heh that's what I refer to it as since I found the link in his 5A fast charger thread) today, and I topped up my already charged generic EUC with it.  The fan noise isn't actually bad on this beast.

Good to hear - i was also thinking to get one of these, but i don't like fans ;)

40 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

...case my OEM dies.  I did check the output voltage on it, and it read 66.3 v so I think maybe my home voltmeter is out of whack or needs a new button cell.

EDIT:  I actually had some work multimeter at home so I adjusted the amps down to 2.11 A (took several clockwise turns of the pot), but the voltage now reads 67.9 V.  I'll have to adjust that down to 67.2 V or is there a more ideal setting? 

Seems a bit strange that the voltage changes when calibrating the current..;( But could be hopefully only a stable side effect - But imho @Craniumdid quite some monitoring and tests, so the charger seems fine? Hopefully also regarding long time stability!

The ideal setting regarding battery life (max recharge cycles) should be as low as possible, so that the balancing circuit of the BMS still gets active ;) ...could just be a little complicated to evaluate...

So in doubt trust the manufacturer and stay with the voltage your original charger provides...

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53 minutes ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

,,,On a side note, I ran across these 9800 mah cells which I wonder whether they might work in our EUCs in a custom pack?

12 for $17.89 CDN

 

10 minutes ago, Keith said:

Since the highest capacity 18650 cell manufactured is 3600mAh, I wouldn't touch those with a barge pole. One 9800mAh cell (if it existed) would be the price of those 12. Although most reviewers give them 5 stars, surely, anyone who knew what they were buying wouldn't buy those in the first place? The telling reviews (IMHO) are the ones that comment that the cells are very light. 

Don't touch those should be the best advise: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?414719-Possibly-the-worst-18650s-around-9800mAh(!)-UltraFire

Seems to be the same crap. On the fotos at the linkg they managed to hide well the logo of the batteries... ;)

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I was reading that why fast charging rocks thread, but it's like all Greek to me with those voltage current graphs.  My generic battery pack isn't that great to begin with so maybe I'll stick with the OEM settings or close to them.  If I get a new pack I might tweak my settings some more.  The charger pot settings seem to influence each other as far as I could tell.  I've got it set pretty close to 67.2 and 2A now.  I didn't touch the shut off pot.  My OEM fan buzzes and whirs so the new charger actually sounds better.  I think my OEM was at 64.something v so I'm going to try the higher setting just to see if I can get a little more distance out of my pack.

Regarding the too good to be true cells, I wonder how they sold 541 packs with a 96% satisfaction rate.  There are also many other listings too.  Maybe people just get them for flashlight usage and don't know better?

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3 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

Regarding the too good to be true cells, I wonder how they sold 541 packs with a 96% satisfaction rate.  There are also many other listings too.  Maybe people just get them for flashlight usage and don't know better?

If the large big-name manufacturers cannot squeeze more than 3500mAh or 3600mAh into a single 18650-cell, I doubt some smaller company could do any better, especially at that price point ;)  The candlepower-forums post indicates that the real capacity of those cells is something like 700mAh (not 7000mAh) with low discharge current (0.45A). If you see a cell with more than ~3500mAh being sold, especially by some other than the large manufacturers (LG, Samsung, Panasonic, Sony, Sanyo etc), be very skeptical. From the posts & tests I've seen, there seem to be many fake cells that claim values of 4000mAh or more, but in reality cannot deliver even 1000mAh.

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It is like Keith said....3600mah is the absolute max available in a 18650! And for us it is the 3500mah, that is better, because of it's high amperage capabiltiy...

And for those who think that in the next few months there will be big Advantage or better 18650 on the market....

 

3 years ago the max mah was 3400mah......The 18650 is "squeezed" out...no more -big- Progress to expect!

All those  cells which are promising more than 4000mah are  Blenders and fakes at its best, which often have a used 50mah clockwork-batterie cell inside.

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5 hours ago, Chriull said:

Good to hear - i was also thinking to get one of these, but i don't like fans ;)

I have the "Cranium charger" too, wouldn't say that it is quiet. The noise it makes is like a loud "white noise" whoosh, which surprised me because most of the fans of that size tend to make a whine. Also you don't want to have it sitting directly on a hard surface like a table or floor, it will transmit its vibrations and sound even louder. At first the noise annoyed me but now I consider it a feature because I know for sure when the main charging is done since the fan shuts off. :D

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6 hours ago, HunkaHunkaBurningLove said:

EDIT:  I actually had my work multimeter at home so I adjusted the amps down to 2.11 A (took several clockwise turns of the pot), but the voltage now reads 67.9 V.  I'll have to adjust that down to 67.2 V or is there a more ideal setting? 

I use this charger through the Charge Doctor and it reads 67.4 volts at times during the initial charging (mine is set to 4 amps). By the time it drops to lower currents the voltage is right at 67.2, I figure at worst the extra 0.2 volts are being dropped in the wires and connectors before it reaches the battery. If it's reading a constant 67.9 even at low current draws I would adjust the output voltage down a bit. 

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I ordered a Charge Doctor V2 to help monitor and control the charging.  If I get a new battery pack it will come in handy.  Also I want to see if my multimeters are out of whack.  It's weird when you send money to the guy who makes the Charge Doctor that different name than the email entered pops up.  Kind of threw me for a loop there as I thought I sent the money to the wrong person!

To help quiet the fan noise / case vibration, you could add some of those little rubber sticky feet to the bottom of the case.

I found some good reading on the Charge Doctor site:

http://hobby16.neowp.fr/category/charge-doctor-en/

What program is used to record the graphs?

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I am happy to say that my Cranium charger has seemed to increased the range of my generic EUC.  I'll have to test it some more, but I do notice that it takes about 45 minutes to recharge after a 5.7 km roll instead of 30 minutes.  I replaced the battery in my voltmeter, and I re-checked the Cranium charger.  It was exactly at 67.2 V while my OEM charger was at 66.5 V.  Maybe the newer charger voltage is high enough to make the BMS perform the balancing charging so I'm getting some more power out of the cells.  Hard to say - I'll have to do some more testing to the limits.   My unit used to give me some low battery warnings near 5.7 kms so I'm hoping it might be able to hit 6.5 or 7 now.

EDIT:  Oh well no such luck.  I ran my usual roll today, and I got the low battery warning beeps near the end.  I had to reset and limp home.  Total distance was only 5.47 km so I think that's about the max I can get out of this pack.  I'm going to do my swappable battery mod once I receive my new pack so hopefully I'll be able to double that.

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