Mysterious Shutoffs and interference..

[Nostris]

After reading about Marty’s mysterious shutoff when riding, I wondered if his incident, and others, might be caused by radio interference. All our wheels are Bluetooth enabled. The Bluetooth, via our apps, enables us to turn on and off the wheel, select ride modes and a host of other settings, as well as receive information about the wheels condition and perform firmware updates. Bluetooth in effects controls the wheel. If strong radio interference were to occur at the correct frequency…and a false signal received by the wheel, might this cause some erratic behaviour or shutdowns ? In Marty’s case, and others, the wheel started, and has run without problems after the incident. …. I experienced a situation where a hotel’s Wi-Fi system shut down my car some months ago.. The car could only be started if the hotel turned off its Wi-Fi .. Thinking about this made me wonder about the effect of radio interference on an EUC..?

[meepmeepmayer]

EUCs can in principle be interfered with by (strong) electromagnetic fields. For example, people reported cut-outs when electric locomotives went directly by.

This is the next step in build quality: proper (assured) electromagnetic shielding for the board. While there may be some metal board boxes, I don't think external interference is something the manufacturers think about. KS, for example, had some issues years ago where the motor itself interfered with the electronics, so internal interference is at least known to them.

Now I doubt the very weak Bluetooth signal could do anything to the control electronics or the all-important tilt sensor to cause a cut-out. But who knows, maybe it's possible. But yea, boards should sit in a perfectly sealed metal box, both for water ingress and interference reasons.

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Nostris said:

After reading about Marty’s mysterious shutoff when riding, I wondered if his incident, and others, might be caused by radio interference. All our wheels are Bluetooth enabled. The Bluetooth, via our apps, enables us to turn on and off the wheel, select ride modes and a host of other settings, as well as receive information about the wheels condition and perform firmware updates.

In the case of the A2, and Begodes in general, I don't think the machine can be turned off by the app can it ? I have read a couple of times some vague reports about security gates on supermarkets causing loss of balance (and in 1 case full on spazzing out) and possible hall sensor issues though over the years...

Edited August 4, 2023 by Cerbera

[sbb]

10 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I don't think the machine can be turned off by the app can it ?

Think more along the lines of, "crash bug in the kernel" and the firmware resets to an "off" state.

[alcatraz]

I suspect my "overlean" was caused by interference. No headwind, flat road, same speed I had already done for thousands of km. Then I'm riding past an industrial zone and the wheel just dies. It powered back up like nothing happened. 

Who knows what really happened but I'm reluctant to call it an overlean.

[Nostris]

It’s an interesting one. Our wheels Bluetooth is always open..ie. Available for connection. For me it’s not at all beyond the realm of possibilities that a signal, on a similar wavelength could be received by the wheel unintentionally. Some wheels you can shut off from the app, but any strong radio interference could cause issues. The thing I find interesting in so many cases is that the rider is cruising along..and is suddenly on his or her face. The wheel diagnostics show nothing..,and the wheel turns on and functions…same as always afterwards.  This infers to me that there is absolutely nothing actually wrong with the wheel…but it has perhaps picked up a stray signal of some sort, that has caused the problem. I don’t think the wheel manufacturers have done much to stop radio interference that  I am aware of. 

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Nostris said:

Some wheels you can shut off from the app,

None can be shut off while riding. Like the spin button is disabled if not at a standstill.

Maybe a bad firmware could be something like "jailbreaked" by an bluetooth attack. But much more likely the whole hatdware is not emv resistant.

2 hours ago, Nostris said:

but any strong radio interference could cause issues.

CE for europe including emv resistance is a self declaration and not certified by any official institution. The FCC declaration i've seen for the wheels years ago is just a joke. So yes - as it was with some wheels malfunction by electromagnetic interference is possible. Like any other of the many mechanical and electronic shortcomings we've seen with all the wheels over time

[chanman]

If you seem to be having problems with such interference through areas you ride in normally, you could shield the board yourself, only problem is probably it's going to block bluetooth if you want that connection. Just wrap the board/heatsink in plastic wrap and then tin foil in layers however many times until you feel good about it. Would have to be careful with heat though.

Edited August 5, 2023 by chanman

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

None can be shut off while riding. Like the spin button is disabled if not at a standstill.

if u press the lock button on the v13 app while riding, it will honk like a car alarm, tilt back and dump u off the back. i don't use the app anymore because of this.

[novazeus]

just holding the phone in my ungloved left hand poking along about 15mph, and unbeknownst to me, my thumb was pressing on the lock button. i had no idea where the car horns were coming from. then the wheel started tilting back until it dumped me. very stupid to have the lock button activated while the wheel is in motion. 

 

[chanman]

I want to say this was supposed to be a security feature, i.e prevents someone from grabbing and riding off with the wheel, but does sound like a liability. I got aggressive tiltback once at low speed when I ran out of battery on a kingsong and it made me stop and get off real quick, I could see it being a problem at high speed making you want to bail.

Edited August 6, 2023 by chanman

[onewheelkoregro]

On 8/5/2023 at 7:27 PM, novazeus said:

just holding the phone in my ungloved left hand poking along about 15mph, and unbeknownst to me, my thumb was pressing on the lock button. i had no idea where the car horns were coming from. then the wheel started tilting back until it dumped me. very stupid to have the lock button activated while the wheel is in motion. 

 

Idk might come in handy if someone is currently riding away on your wheel...

[alcatraz]

9 hours ago, onewheelkoregro said:

Idk might come in handy if someone is currently riding away on your wheel...

That gave me an idea. What if in the future, the "key" to an euc is connecting your phone to it? If someone rides away the thing starts a 30s countdown before tiltback at 5km/h.

[Robse]

On 8/4/2023 at 3:47 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

This is the next step in build quality: proper (assured) electromagnetic shielding for the board. While there may be some metal board boxes, I don't think external interference is something the manufacturers think about.

 

In Europe we call this  "Conforming with the European CE requirements"    aka CE Marking.

In China they call this "Call for the cheapest (ce)label printer"

Edited August 17, 2023 by Robse

[Robse]

16 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

That gave me an idea. What if in the future, the "key" to an euc is connecting your phone to it? If someone rides away the thing starts a 30s countdown before tiltback at 5km/h.

Better not.  Modern (smart)phones and their "operating" software is not to trust.  Anyone use a smartphone for one week without errors or lagging or anything?  My wheel's may not in any way have the ability to "shut down" due to  some stupid software bug.  It is already enough with the errors and shortcomings in the firmware. No more thanks.

[alcatraz]

29 minutes ago, Robse said:

Better not.  Modern (smart)phones and their "operating" software is not to trust.  Anyone use a smartphone for one week without errors or lagging or anything?  My wheel's may not in any way have the ability to "shut down" due to  some stupid software bug.  It is already enough with the errors and shortcomings in the firmware. No more thanks.

Fair enough. Then maybe have it be an option that can be disabled. Let some guinea pigs try it before endorsing it to everyone. 

Edited August 17, 2023 by alcatraz

[meepmeepmayer]

4 hours ago, Robse said:

In Europe we call this  "Conforming with the European CE requirements"    aka CE Marking.

I'm sure there are regulations about EM emissions for all electronics, but are they also about interference by external EM on the electronics themselves? I actually don't know.

[Eucner]

25 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm sure there are regulations about EM emissions for all electronics, but are they also about interference by external EM on the electronics themselves? I actually don't know.

You can check it here https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:02014L0030-20180911 .

[sbb]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm sure there are regulations about EM emissions for all electronics, but are they also about interference by external EM on the electronics themselves? I actually don't know.

Check your regional Amazon site for Baofeng handheld radios.  The UV-5R is a typical model.

If they are available for you to buy, the answer to your question on Chinese hardware is, "EM Regulation? Yes, we have BIG logo!"

----------

People want to treat EUCs like cars and bikes, but the failure modes are more akin to aircraft. Specifically, helicopters.

 

Cheers,

[Giffy]

Keep an eye on Solar activity too. A couple years after the peak of solar cycle 23 in 2003, there was a massive solar storm that severely affected electronic equipment. We're close to the peak of sunspot cycle 24 and the Earth's electromagnetic field is even weaker than it was so it would take a smaller event to have a similar effect. There would be an increase risk for cutouts during that time in certain areas.

Of course, if we were hit by a solar storm like what hit the planet in 1859, the instant cutout and possible battery explosion would be the least of your concern as humanity would be instantly plunged back into the per-industrial revolution era.

[Circuitmage]

[mrelwood]

While all theories in this thread are definitely possible ( @Circuitmage’s included…  ), I think it’s a good bit more likely that the firmware (especially on Begode wheels) just doesn’t have a proper error mode that would gracefully continue operation in all situations.

[Robse]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

While all theories in this thread are definitely possible ( @Circuitmage’s included…  ), I think it’s a good bit more likely that the firmware (especially on Begode wheels) just doesn’t have a proper error mode that would gracefully continue operation in all situations.

now rewealing the hidden parts of the Begode display ....

[Nostris]

On 8/6/2023 at 6:24 AM, chanman said:

I want to say this was supposed to be a security feature, i.e prevents someone from grabbing and riding off with the wheel, but does sound like a liability. I got aggressive tiltback once at low speed when I ran out of battery on a kingsong and it made me stop and get off real quick, I could see it being a problem at high speed making you want to bail.

 

On 8/6/2023 at 3:27 AM, novazeus said:

just holding the phone in my ungloved left hand poking along about 15mph, and unbeknownst to me, my thumb was pressing on the lock button. i had no idea where the car horns were coming from. then the wheel started tilting back until it dumped me. very stupid to have the lock button activated while the wheel is in motion. 

 

So, this is also interesting! Could this also have something to do with the riders who have had their V12HT dump them off the back for no apparent reason? 

[Nostris]

On 8/17/2023 at 4:25 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

I'm sure there are regulations about EM emissions for all electronics, but are they also about interference by external EM on the electronics themselves? I actually don't know.

And Also this. I was also wondering about strong radio signals…For instance, passing the house of an enthusiastic Ham Radio operator, trying to call his buddy in New Zealand or having a chat with the ISS. There are all sorts of possible emitters of legal and illegal EM emissions.