EUC prices: Should all wheels offer serious "early adopter" discounts like the V13 to make up for possible issues?

[meepmeepmayer]

Inmotion offers a quite big discount for the V13 if you preorder/buy the first batch as an "early bird" -  $4000 vs. $4600 ($600 is 13% off the MSRP). This is a significant savings, and I believe it will tempt many people to overcome worries about possible issues with a newly released wheel (that costs a lot).

Given how disastrous so many 2022 (and late 2021) wheel launches ended up being, do you think that the manufacturers should offer similar discounts for the first/early batchers in general? Or at least for the more expensive models?

Picture someone wanting to buy the next King Song wheel after the S22 disaster. Pretty sure a lot of people would be put off by the history (or wait a year), but one possible way out is to offer a significant discount (10% or more) for those who buy the new model right away.

Same for the Sherman-S. After the Abrams issues, do you think people will hold back on such a pricy wheel, and a preorder/early adopter discount can help?

Or do people buy brand new EUC models at crazy prices ($4000+) anyways because they want to (and can afford it), and the manufacturers can afford to push out semi-finished wheels in eternity?

Should first batch discounts be a general thing? Would they sell more wheels when people don't wait, because they know they would at least be compensated for having to deal with the latest crazy issue? Will people not wait anyways, so discounts won't do much?

What do you think?

Edited October 4, 2022 by meepmeepmayer

[MrEUCMan]

All wheels are potential shit. Might as well get it as soon as you can, break it, so you can take it apart, learn it, and fix it.

[Mayhem]

I said this back in august in the s20 flame thrower thread….. 

“customers shouldn’t be the ones doing the irl testing that’s the issue. If your gonna volunteer to be a preorder Guinea pig the wheel should be at a significant discount. 
 

For example; A better system would be sell around 100 units at a substantial discount as the “beta tester version” get feedback from said testers and said customer can either

A- exchange beta wheel for final version if issues arise or

B-  keep beta version if they are happy with it.
 

Company gets wheel tested, customer get wheel at a substantial discount and if it’s a lemon they will get it replaced with a proper version. 
 

but a last, most people are fine with the current pay and risk it all philosophy. So nothing will ever properly change.”

If you want companies to change their business models then STOP PAYING full price for unfinished products. Let the wheels sit on the shelves and we will get better products. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Mayhem

[0000]

All people have different risk tolerances and circumstances influencing those tolerances, fully informed or otherwise.

We all know now that any wheel from any "overseas" manufacturer can and do have quality issues that are sometimes catastrophic. So yes, you can negotiate a discount to act as a low-paid *read discount* "crash dummy" as I've heard it put or roll the dice on combustion risks due to a design or assembly flaw, so the question is what is your price to assume these risks?

Do you value the benefits of a exciting new, possibly under-tested, wheel over the risks or do you let others shoulder that risk at a relatively small discount. How much do you value your health? How about your property (or someone else's with liability in play)? Circumstances vary.

What if everyone thinks similarly in assessing the risk of a first batch wheel too high, then no new wheels are ordered as everyone waits on others to assume the real but hard to quantify risks. @Mayhemsaid it. Manufacturers will be forced to get gud with better products that eliminate some of the risks, or fail when products, especially preorders, dry up.

It's a question of information first and values second as you can't know the risks without first being informed. Everyone tracking cutouts, manufacturing defects, and fires are performing a great boon for the community so we can better make this choice.

That said, for own calculations, I value my health and property a bit more than a $600 discount. If others want to assume the risks, that's on them. Hopefully they're well informed going into it.

[Fuerte]

I wouldn't want to preorder from Gotway with a discount, but I really think InMotion is going all out to make a safe wheel, so i am doing it.

[Funky]

No price drop will make me wanna buy first batch wheel. Even if it's 50% cheaper. 4600$ vs 2300$.. It still is 2300$ that can go down the drain, or worst case injure my so badly that operation will cost 10.000k...

And yes first batch wheel should have discounts for sure. Because every new wheel has some kind problem. If i'm dropping down 2k, 3k, or even 4k $$$. The product should operate as it is intended. I don't want any "unseen" problems suddenly appearing - like motor slippage, or weak mosfets, motherboard easily burning, or whatever!!! Because if i'm paying full price, it should work! First buyers should 100% get a discount, or have an option exchanging their wheel for "updated" model. If there is some kind issue known.. 

I for sure would take my wheel back to seller and demand refund, if suddenly EUC manufacturer releases statement for known issue, or anything that would make wheel  "break/defective". It's simply defective product and they need to refund/exchange..

 Product that cost so much money should work! And no if's/but's! That's why i won't buy any of these new wheels - they aren't tested yet..

 

I even will dare to say i would gladly pay 1000$ extra for a good product, that i see worth. None of these new wheels are worth the money in my eyes.. As there is nothing "new" in these new wheels..

 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Funky

[Mayhem]

14 minutes ago, Fuerte said:

I wouldn't want to preorder from Gotway with a discount, but I really think InMotion is going all out to make a safe wheel, so i am doing it.

All these companies are the same though, That’s the thing no one company is better than the other because all these companies suck at different things.

One thing they have in common is that they all have no issue putting out a product that isn’t proven and expect us to pay for it regardless if it’s condition. 

Brand loyalty is a thing of the past. All wheels have their issues regardless of manufacturer. Every company has put out a lack luster wheel. Every company has failed the customers in some way shape or form and will continue to do so. 

[Spaghetteh]

Releasing wheels that haven't been thoroughly tested to rule out critical failures is a terrible precedent to attempt to normalize by offering a discounted price. If they want beta-testers I'm certain they would find no shortage of those willing to face the risks, even paying to do so, amongst our community but that needs to happen before these wheels are available for purchase where a sign-up and a waiver ensures the tester knows what they're getting into and direct-feedback channels are established so common and critical issues can be identified as quickly as possible.

This sport is growing by-the-day and not every newcomer is as involved in our online community as to be aware of the risks of buying a first-batch wheel - it's entirely plausible that any newcomer might just see an awesome pre-order discount on a device they're naive enough trust to work flawlessly.

As it is, I imagine it to be unlikely that those of us who are unwilling to buy a first-batch wheel will have their minds changed by a discount. Personally, I have no interest in being a beta-tester and you couldn't pay me to get on an unproven 1st or 2nd batch wheel. Instead I'll wait for the issues to get sorted out, a year if it takes, all the while newer more capable wheel announcements start to catch my attention and I may come to favor them over the one I originally wanted. Looking at your S20, KingSong! I have impulsive buying habits and I was fully aboard the S20 hype-train last year. If I could have trusted first-batch wheels I would have been amongst the first owners of the S20. As it turns out my reservations were justified and now I've moved on, likely never to own an S22 or whatever they rebrand it as. I highly doubt that this experience is uncommon within our community and it's honestly a big loss for all of us, including the manufacturers.

[Adel]

it’s going to be very hard to sell V13 at $4600. It competes against Master Pro, Master X, EX30, Sherman-S, all of which have more battery capacity, most at lower prices.

I don’t like this practice as it’s potentially deceptive. What will early adopters think when Inmotion inevitably reprices the V13 lower due to market competition? 

[Tawpie]

No!

If you want people to beta test it, have them join a special program and supply them with free wheels. With appropriate disclosures and liability releases etc.

When you allow someone to 'sell' a product with the hopes that they can get regular folks to help them test it, you remove a good deal of the incentive to do pre-sale testing themselves. In house. At their risk and expense.

I don't want to encourage "make an interesting idea, throw it out there, see if it'll stick" products. Once people pay their money, they should be able to expect that the beta testing is complete and that the manufacturer is fine with the defects that remain. Sure, some problems will remain undiscovered (as we've seen!), but the financial impact of a botched release needs to be hanging over the manufacturer's heads.

[Mayhem]

1 hour ago, Spaghetteh said:

not every newcomer is as involved in our online community as to be aware of the risks of buying a first-batch wheel - it's entirely plausible that any newcomer might just see an awesome pre-order discount on a device they're naive enough trust to work flawlessly.

That brings up a good point. A new comer gets lured in by the hype train preorders and unbeknownst to them they signed up to be a Guinea pig. Expects the thing to work flawlessly out the box because hey why wouldn’t it work. It cost 3-4k it should be top notch stuff right?? 🙄

They are completely unaware of the risk they have taken. They have an issue with the wheel now they are in an uproar with the distributor for selling them a p.o.s paper weight. Or worse they get hurt or hurt someone else because of it. Which could lead to laws / bans being placed for said “unsafe” machines. 
 

 

[Mayhem]

58 minutes ago, Adel said:

it’s going to be very hard to sell V13 at $4600. It competes against Master Pro, Master X, EX30, Sherman-S, all of which have more battery capacity, most at lower prices.

I don’t like this practice as it’s potentially deceptive. What will early adopters think when Inmotion inevitably reprices the V13 lower due to market competition? 

V13 prices will come down to the preorder discount price most likely. With all the competition it’s gonna be a tougher sell unless the other wheels all have serious issues. 

[Unventor]

Early bird discounts is the American way. Whether you like it or not. It is about getting new product out on market and to be visible in an already competitive market. 

Once a product get the word of mouth "advertising" or read user reviews then the discount is not needed as much to get customers to invest in it. Same is done but more extreme way in keeping way with kickstarter sites. 

Despite what most think is simply not possible to test a product in house or by few ambassadors or retailers to find all potential issues that product can expireance during a product lifetime. As a product hits end users they will be used in ways that a manufacturer newer though of. Customers will push limits/boundaries and are very creative. 

This is also true for EUCs.

This is my expireance from 10 years in retail sales and 15+ years in customer care/support. 

It matters not if it is a new company or have 80+ years history delivering new products yearly. 

If you as a rider dislike the discount the best way you can vote your opinion is not to be early bird and wait it out. Very simple choice. On the other hand be prepared something can happen. 

Some goes installing newsy os on a computer or smartphone. It is the same thing here. Bugs or improved design will always happen donw the line. 

[Unventor]

On 10/4/2022 at 9:27 PM, Vanturion said:

We all know now that any wheel from any "overseas" manufacturer can and do have quality issues that are sometimes catastrophic. So yes, you can negotiate a discount to act as a low-paid *read discount* "crash dummy" as I've heard it put or roll the dice on combustion risks due to a design or assembly flaw, so the question is what is your price to assume these risks?

Made in US or EU doesn't make problems not occur. Thinking the "overseas" is the problem is simply naive. 

I will explain. Products are made of many parts and raw materials. The stamp "made in" means ONLY that more than half of the product is assembly in that listed country. Sub components can come from other places. We have a global manufacturing and economy. It is not practical possible to use items from just one country or even region. 

[0000]

1 hour ago, Unventor said:

Made in US or EU doesn't make problems not occur. Thinking the "overseas" is the problem is simply naive. 

I never said it didn't, nor did I say anything about only sourcing components domestically.

The assumption or implication in my earlier statements is that products developed and/or manufactured in western markets like the US and EU force a certain level of quality/safety and failing that, accountability through expensive recalls due to our legal protections and consumer rights. Obviously these same protections do not apply to "overseas" manufacturers, hence the ability to "get away" with continuing to deliver substandard products without legal ramifications. Hell I just saw in another thread that an EUC vendor in France just got S22's with the older dangerous and failure-prone motors for a recent example. That's exactly one kind of the "overseas standards" I am referring to.

Counter-point, dismissing the obvious and repeated examples of the ramifications of "overseas" manufacturing and the lack of legal protections which creates this permissive environment ultimately resulting in uninformed customers assuming higher than necessary risks than they would have if the manufacturing occurred domestically is what is naive. But thanks for the unsolicited and unneeded lesson and accompanying condescension.

Edited October 5, 2022 by Vanturion
link

[Cerbera]

Could it be that the very nature of EUCs makes them not something that could ever feasibly be made under 'Western Standards' ?

The word EUC should be an antonym for the term failsafe - they can never fail safe - if they fail we crash.

I don't know what we can do to try and get higher build standards, while we're all so keen and 'money down' to get our hands on the latest and 'greatest'.

Presumably there will continue to be a slow and gradual overall improvement in all respects that there has been so far since their invention, but at the moment we are still in the phase where we are trying to find their limits, and to push them hard in terms of performance and speed. I am actually quite grateful for the lack of regulation in that respect, because it means we get through that dangerous, more experimental phase much faster, and can hopefully get on to the only other things about it which will be left to improve, like better builds, better QC, and better systems design and redundancy where possible.

Riding EUCs will always feel to me like being part of some risky but exciting experiment. I think most of us don't expect to get the same safety levels out of them that I do out of more established vehicles because a) it's so relatively new, and b) their inherent nature (the 1 wheel thing) seems to forbid it ! Most of us know about and accept that fact there is roughly a 1-2% chance we will crash through technical failure anytime we get on it.

 

Edited October 5, 2022 by Cerbera

[0000]

58 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Could it be that the very nature of EUCs makes them not something that could ever feasibly be made under 'Western Standards' ?

No, and that's a totally valid point. EUCs probably would never had been designed/manufactured here as those same legal protections also have fostered a litigious environment which has effectively killed the potential to profit from making products that have a lot of inherent operational risks (EUC). What's frustrating to see is that basic quality assurance checks or other extremely basic tasks that could have been taken to produce a reasonable consistent level of safety many of us could tolerate not only doesn't happen, but fails spectacularly over and over again in really basic ways. If it's not one thing, it's another, and the worse thing about it is that it appears like simple design/manufacturing "lessons learned" don't really make it from one generation of wheel to the next (like including flaw for wire chafing in latest wheel design).
 

58 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

I don't know what we can do to try and get higher build standards, while we're all so keen and 'money down' to get our hands on the latest and 'greatest'.

Short of learning Chinese and working for one of these manufacturers (or starting up your own design/manufacturing outfit with "overseas" legal protections LOL), probably not much. There's already been a huge incentive recognized by some big domestic vendors to improve in this area and eWheels is the furthest along with attempting to inject more Western-standards and quality with their business venture with LiTech. Looking at the Master though, even this kind of partnership can't fix design mistakes or deficiencies.
 

58 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Presumably there will continue to be a slow and gradual overall improvement in all respects that there has been so far since their invention, but at the moment we are still in the phase where we are trying to find their limits, and to push them hard in terms of performance and speed. I am actually quite grateful for the lack of regulation in that respect because it means we get through that dangerous phase much faster, and can hopefully get on to the only other things about it which will be left to improve, like better builds, better QC, and better systems design and redundancy where possible.

On one hand I totally agree, on the other hand, this is easy to say if you haven't personally had a house fire or catastrophic injury from a cut-out or electrical balance failure at speed. Everyone who rides a wheel already has some appetite for risk, it's super fun. Hell even dodging traffic respecting no rules except basic survival atop an EUC can be a huge thrill (not supporting this). However, there's a point at which things go too far and should be pulled back. Aggregating all of the issues across the board with many of these new wheels, perhaps we're there now.

At the end of the day it's up to informed customers to make their voice heard through sales or more specifically lack thereof in a de-facto vote of no confidence as big daddy government isn't going to lay down the law anytime soon. Nor would that be a good outcome anyway.

Edited October 6, 2022 by Vanturion

[Daley1]

@Mayhem,thank the lord for someone with a bit of sense!

[Mayhem]

7 hours ago, Daley1 said:

@Mayhem,thank the lord for someone with a bit of sense!

Appreciate that

Edited October 6, 2022 by Mayhem

[mrelwood]

14 hours ago, Vanturion said:

The assumption or implication in my earlier statements is that products developed and/or manufactured in western markets like the US and EU force a certain level of quality/safety and failing that, accountability through expensive recalls due to our legal protections and consumer rights.

Like... Boeing? Future Motion?

It would be nice if your assumption was true. I'm not sure it's that simple though. There are many examples of Western manufactured products that are just as sub-standard  and failure prone as EUCs.

There aren't many manufacturers, Western or not, that go beyond what's just barely enough. The competition is that fierce in pretty much all fields of manufacturing.

The only thing that keeps the lousy quality alive, are the customers for whom a lousy "quality" is enough. The Master and S22 threads are depressing to read, yet people don't cancel their orders but hope that the unit they are about to receive would be an outlier and free of issues. It's a gamble, pure and simple, and too many customers are ok with it.

I play music with overseas instruments that I record with overseas microphones and overseas interfaces, and I mix the music with an overseas computer. I also shoot video on my overseas phone and edit on the same overseas computer. And they all work great, just like all of their overseas precessors did. And the ones before those. I do not believe that "overseas" or "Western" are labels of quality or durability. You can build crap even in Switzerland. And if people keep buying the crap, they keep making. Isn't that like the first rule of economics or something?

[Tawpie]

56 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

first rule of economics or something

I rank "you can't get something for nothing" as first

 

57 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Western manufactured products

wait, is there any such thing? (not counting baby diapers and toilet paper, but I think we source our wood pulp from our neighbors to the north so those might not count either)

 

59 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

hope that the unit they are about to receive would be an outlier and free of issues

4 out of 5 owners are riding outliers—the odds are much much better than the lottery. and people play the lottery.

 

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

There aren't many manufacturers, Western or not, that go beyond what's just barely enough

This assessment is one to take to the bank. It is a fact of life. Certainly we don't like to see that attitude producing the things we buy, but be honest… how far above and beyond barely good enough do you go when you're making a sandwich—for someone you'll never ever meet?

[mrelwood]

23 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I rank "you can't get something for nothing" as first

Hmm. I'd argue that you can get your ass kicked for nothing at all.

 

23 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

4 out of 5 owners are riding outliers—the odds are much much better than the lottery. and people play the lottery.

Doesn't seem so. Last I heard, every known S22 in Finland were sent back for repairs or sent a new board in warranty. Less than a dozen of them, but still.

[The Brahan Seer]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

There aren't many manufacturers, Western or not, that go beyond what's just barely enough. The competition is that fierce in pretty much all fields of manufacturing.

I'm not sure I agree with you on this. Any reputable manufacturer in the west adheres to these Quality Assurance standards.. 

And probably many more. Yes we still see companies produce faulty products and that seems to be getting worse. Apple is a good example though a lot of it is software rather than hardware issues.  

As pointed out to me there is a world of difference between Chinese Motorcycles and the Japanese, British and US ones. No comparison on build quality.

Check out the following with a great example where companies go above and beyond the bare minimum..

 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Yes we still see companies produce faulty products and that seems to be getting worse. Apple is a good example though a lot of it is software rather than hardware issues.  

Btw, Apple phones' hardware is made in China, and software in the US...

[The Brahan Seer]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, Apple phones' hardware is made in China, and software in the US...

Semantics. The hardware is designed in the US and its made to US standards. As for the software I have no idea why they seem to have so many issues after release these days. Maybe the tech is getting so advanced the software to run it needs to be incredibly complicated and so difficult to program.