Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[Alexutlang]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Yeah compared to other EUC's suspensions, S-S has the best one out right now! Hands down! Having those "tail" moving parts is a nightmare.

Doh i personally still don't like how the suspension doesn't have a hard "arch/bridge". Only thing holding together is some screws via motherboard apartment. I could see some problems happening like both suspensions don't go down the same way, or getting out of line/sinc. Time only will show..

You still have danger of blowing the suspension.. But that's if you really abuse the wheel. 

My surron  front suspension attached to 2 crowns with only 8 screws, still fine after 3000km. Sherman S has 16 screws attached to 4 magnesium alloy shell, 8 screws attached to the motherboard housing and 4 pins 6 or 8mm in diameter attached to the motherboard housing from each shell should be more robust. Plus 12 screws on each axle. But yeah only time will tell. I'm really impressed with SS suspension. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by Alexutlang

[Alexutlang]

1 hour ago, Adel said:

What street tire did you install and do you like it better than the K262. Im tempted to order Sherman S with street tire but I like the stability of the knobby on my OG Sherman.

I'm using 80/90-14 michelin city pro TT. That's what i have with my monster pro and sherman max. I never had a bent rim using city pro so I keep using it.  knobby tire is more stable at high speed but maneuverability is important to me especially on group rides. Sudden change of direction is not that easy on knobby tire

[DragonFZ]

18 hours ago, Adel said:

Has anyone got the Sherman S with the Kenda 340 street tire (Ewheels ships some configured this way). How does it ride compared to the Kenda 262, are you happy with the tire choice.

I opted my Sherman S with the stock Knobby tires. A fellow rider opted the stock street tire. We both got our wheels last Monday. According to him, the stock street tires are fine, no issues. It is not as good as the Street Pilot 2.

[DragonFZ]

9 hours ago, Clem604 said:

Thanks! I was looking at them on Aliexpress as well but I wasn't sure which exact one to buy that would work with the Sherman. Would you have a link to the one you've bought? Cheers🤙

Alien Rides has the Hyper Charger 0 to 140V, up to 15A for $279. This is the same as the Roger Charger. Choose option 100V GX16-5.  

[DragonFZ]

3 hours ago, Alexutlang said:

 I opened mine at 600km when i changed the knobby to street tire. I don't have those rubbing on the shell and on suspension holder/block. Suspension is set and forget compared to all begode wheels and V13. no air to check, nothing to lubricate, no bushing or bearing to check. I use my SS on stairs every ride probably over 100 steps total since I have it. I might open it again at 1500km to check the suspension to see for any damages or wear and tear. So far it's a stressfree owning the SS. No different than owning a  non suspension wheel when it comes to maintenance 

 

I

Thanks for the update and video. Me... I don't check, so I can forget it is a possible issue.

[techyiam]

Spring preload is the compression of a suspension coil spring before any stroke is used.

A coil spring with a linear spring rate will push back or support a force proportional to the amount the spring is compressed. 

Since preload pre-compresses a spring, more preload means the additional compression needed to support the weight of the rider is now less, and therefore, less sag.

And hence, spring preload directly adjusts sag, except for the theoretical case, where the spring constant or spring preload is so high that the suspension is topped out with the rider on board. So any more preload doesn't affect sag; sag stays at zero.

 

Edited January 17, 2023 by techyiam

[KiwiMark]

13 hours ago, Clem604 said:

Thanks! I was looking at them on Aliexpress as well but I wasn't sure which exact one to buy that would work with the Sherman. Would you have a link to the one you've bought? Cheers🤙

I bought this big ugly brute: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001460901037.html?gps-id=pcStoreLeaderboard&scm=1007.22922.271278.0&scm_id=1007.22922.271278.0&scm-url=1007.22922.271278.0&pvid=8c46192a-59b1-433c-8d78-4b4663973e87&_t=gps-id:pcStoreLeaderboard,scm-url:1007.22922.271278.0,pvid:8c46192a-59b1-433c-8d78-4b4663973e87,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238113%231998&pdp_ext_f={"sku_id"%3A"12000020716121515"%2C"sceneId"%3A"12922"}&pdp_npi=2%40dis!NZD!274.91!274.91!!!!!%402101f6ba16739751119836067ec0cf!12000020716121515!rec&spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.smartLeaderboard_1436291891.1005001460901037

It doesn't look as nice as the one that Alien Rides has, but that one with shipping would have cost me a lot more, cheap shipping from China to NZ made the biggest difference to me.

I also bought a couple of these: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003540619856.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.28.21ef1802etQRSI GX-16 5-pin female plugs with leads, combined with https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32832063718.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.order_list_main.23.21ef1802etQRSI XT60 5pcs Female and then a XT60 Y harness and viola, plug in the Y harness and and 2 XT60 to GX-16 5-pin leads and I can plug into both charge ports and charge at 15A.  The GX16-5 leads are wired with both pins 1 & 2 going to the positive and both pins 4 & 5 going to negative so that the power isn't all going through one pin (each pin is only rated for 5A) - I triple checked that I had wired it correctly before plugging in to anything.  I've also bought some other connectors so I can use this charger on my scooter and on my e-MTB.  I could buy a V13 and I'd only need to buy a couple of plugs w/leads and with a little soldering I would be good to charge at 126V and up to 20A (I wouldn't actually go to 20A though). 

My charger is plugged into a 220V, 4,000W continuous (8,000W peak) inverter which draws power from my 2 x 12V 310Ah LiFePO4 batteries, which are charged from my 1,540W of solar panels.  So my wheels are powered by sunlight.

Edited January 17, 2023 by KiwiMark

[Clem604]

2 minutes ago, KiwiMark said:

I bought this big ugly brute:

Thanks for the links, I'll definetly take a look at that option. This looks like the one charger to charge them all!

 

[Planemo]

8 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

If you were to add 20mm of preload, I would say the sag would be reduce to just an additional 20mm when you step on. Would you agree this would be 20mm?

Yes.

Athough its crucial to remember that what we have actuallly done is raise the ride height by 20mm and chopped our sag in half. 

At this point I thought we were on the same page but..

8 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

Here's a handy-dandy little graphic I've knocked together from this site

I dont actually like that graphic because its not showing clearly what is happening to the vehicle. I especially lose faith in the site you linked when I see comments like this:

"By adding preload on the front, for example, in the braking zone there is going to be less of a diving effect as the weight moves forward because it takes more of yours the bike’s weight to overcome the force of the spring pushing back up."

No it doesnt. Preload does zero to affect diving force because spring rate remains the same. And this one..

<This is why it is often referred to as making the suspension ‘stiffer’>

No it doesn't. As soon as someone mentions the word 'stiffer' in the same sentence as adding preload I lose interest. Adding preload adds ride height, nothing else.

8 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

 I guess if you consider that the pedal hangers are ultimately attached to that blue part than yes, the pedals will ultimately end up being higher, but that's just akin to moving the height of the pedal hangers themselves rather than as a result of the suspension as such.

You have lost me here, it almost sounds contradictory.

8 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

If this were on a motorcycle one would ideally adjust the "ride height" by adjusting where the triple claps grip the stanchion and leave the preload to control sag.

Funnily enough it was an MC application which kicked all this off on the forum I mentioned. I had a Yam XT660X which I wanted to raise the ride height on. There was no preload adjustment and the forks were already as low as they could go in the clamps from the factory. A friend of the mods was marketing 'tokens' which were to be fitted under the top caps (on top of the spring) and the USP was that they would stiffen up the front suspension. I knew they wouldnt but I bought them because they suited my purpose. They did absolutely nothing to stiffen the front end and when I questioned them on this...well I have already said. They understood later though..

8 hours ago, Slartibartfast said:

in that I'd say the only thing preload really achieves is to reduce the amount the suspension rises when unladen.

Adding or removing preload? In any event unladen doesnt mean much in the real world, especially when nearly all forks/shocks will be at full extension (or should be) whatever you set the available preload to when unladen.

Preload should be used to adjust ride height only. Thats why MC's often have to fiddle with it when laden with gear/passenger, only because they dont want to bottom out. But the issue with having the same spring rate remans (the bike will be very soft and wallowy) unless you crank up the damping which is of course a crutch because now your comfort will suffer.

As I say, I think we are of similar thinking but the site you posted makes me think otherwise. Apologies if not.

[wstuart]

6 hours ago, DragonFZ said:

I opted my Sherman S with the stock Knobby tires. A fellow rider opted the stock street tire. We both got our wheels last Monday. According to him, the stock street tires are fine, no issues. It is not as good as the Street Pilot 2.

Have you ridden both?  Is one more stable than the other?

[dycus]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

"By adding preload on the front, for example, in the braking zone there is going to be less of a diving effect as the weight moves forward because it takes more of yours the bike’s weight to overcome the force of the spring pushing back up."

No it doesnt. Preload does zero to affect diving force because spring rate remains the same. And this one..

The quote is actually correct for this specific case. You are also correct that spring rate remains the same in all conditions.

If we have a fully extended suspension element (let's say it's a coil shock), with 0lbs of preload, then the spring will compress some amount when you put weight on it. Let's say it's a 100lb/in spring and you put 100lb on it. It'll compress 1 inch. When you put 200lb it will compress 2 inches. This we all agree on.

If you add 100lbs of preload, then the suspension will not compress at all when you put 0-100lb on it! It will only start to move once you exceed 100lb. So with 200lb on it, it will then compress 1 inch. So for this example, when braking, if your suspension sees less than 100lb, it won't dive at all. At 200lb it will only dive 1 inch, whereas with no preload it would have dived 2 inches.

The spring rate is the same, the spring will move 1 inch per 100lb. But it won't start moving until the preload force has been exceeded.

This is, however, a terrible way to set up suspension because it will lose compliance over small bumps. Only just enough preload should be added to make sure the suspension fully extends when there's zero load on it (only reason you'd need a lot is if your suspension elements/linkages are really stiff or sticky).

Adding preload does move the suspension higher for any given weight ("changes the ride height"). As above, if your 200lbs would have compressed the suspension 2 inches, then you add 100lb of preload, it will only compress 1 inch because the other 100lb is taken up by the preload. You will gain back suspension travel in exchange for small-bump compliance (assuming the shock doesn't bottom out first, in the case of wheels with linkages. Not relevant for the Sherman S).

The proper adjustment to make is of course to change the spring for one with the right spring rate for your weight, and barely enough preload to extend the suspension. But since there are only 2 spring choices for the Sherman S, I assume they gave us preload as a crutch to let people adjust ride height.

Edited January 17, 2023 by dycus

[techyiam]

44 minutes ago, dycus said:

The proper adjustment to make is of course to change the spring for one with the right spring rate for your weight, and barely enough preload to extend the suspension.

Ideally, you would want the sprung weight to stay relatively flat, and the unsprung weight going up and down following the undulations, such as bumps and potholes. 

Without proper sag, the unsprung weight won't be able to dip down, so the whole thing drops in.

Sag is important. If you want better small-bump compliance, you may consider progressively wound coil springs, or use rising rate links where possible.

After the spring rate is chosen, you need preload to set sag.

Edited January 18, 2023 by techyiam

[dycus]

Sag is definitely critical, I didn't mean to imply it wasn't. But using preload to set sag is a workaround to having the wrong spring. The ideal scenario is setting sag by getting the proper spring rate spring, such that you have the desired sag when you're stationary on the wheel.

[techyiam]

3 minutes ago, dycus said:

The ideal scenario is setting sag by getting the proper spring rate spring, such that you have the desired sag when you're stationary on the wheel.

Then you are now the selecting spring rate to give you the desired sag.

I guess if that's how you like to setup your suspension.

Spring rate determines the firmness of the ride, aside from damping. (Except on the S22 with stock sliders: stiction 🙂)

Types of terrain can affect what sag to use.

 

 

 

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, dycus said:

So for this example, when braking, if your suspension sees less than 100lb, it won't dive at all. At 200lb it will only dive 1 inch, whereas with no preload it would have dived 2 inches.

Although, there’s the rider’s weight that already overcomes the preload and compresses the spring. So it will compress 2 inches in both cases. 

2 hours ago, dycus said:

The spring rate is the same, the spring will move 1 inch per 100lb. But it won't start moving until the preload force has been exceeded.

Which the rider’s weight does, as long as there’s any sag.

2 hours ago, dycus said:

This is, however, a terrible way to set up suspension because it will lose compliance over small bumps.

How’s that? Say you’ve got 40% of sag, which is 40% of the spring’s travel. You hit a bump that compresses the spring up to 70%.

You apply 10% of preload to achieve 30% sag, but the spring will still be 40% loaded. You hit the same bump, and the spring still goes from 40% to 70% since the spring rate is the same, but the preload just makes this happen at 30-60% of the suspension travel.

 Isn’t the spring behavior exactly the same, but it just happens 10% higher of the suspension travel?

 

Btw, why do people call this a ”hydraulic suspension“? How is it any more hydraulic than any other shock that has compression/rebound damping?

Edited January 18, 2023 by mrelwood

[dycus]

You guys are right, I thought about it more thoroughly. I may make some diagrams tomorrow to adequately explain it for everybody.

And people say it's hydraulic because the damping mechanisms are hydraulic... though the suspension is not! It bugs me too.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

Btw, why do people call this a ”hydraulic suspension“?

Caught the marketing buzzword that sounds kewl and better! The S22 is as "hydraulic" as Sherman-S, the difference is the S22 the spring is on the outside of the oil filled canister rather than being inside the oil filled canister as is the case with -S.

I always think of "sag" as getting the suspension into the section of its leverage curve where you'll be able to utilize as much of its range as you can. Or the portion of the curve that you want to operate within. Sure, it ends up changing the ride height, but it establishes your nominal/starting position in the leverage curve and unless you have a very linear suspension system there are better and worse places to start from. Of course, what's better and worse depends on rider preference, terrain, speed, and desired outcome.

[Kekafuch]

10 hours ago, Clem604 said:

Thanks for the links, I'll definetly take a look at that option. This looks like the one charger to charge them all!

 

C$ 186.43  21％ Off | Charger 90v 120v 0- 20A 15A Adjustable Charger 140v 10-120v LI-ION Lithium Lifepo4 Battery Pack Charger LTO
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPJ5Yjy

 

Arrived in less than 10 days to Vancouver. 1-140V 0-15A option. Same as Roger Charger. It’s a used server power supply item but it’s been tested and set up with voltmeter and knobs for voltage and current adjustment. 
 

Take note that the current ratings is at 220V. At 110/120V outlet , you get half the current output. It’s good charger for using EV level 2. The seller will make you a plug adapter if you let them know what you want. 
 

Footprint is similar to stock Sherman charger but it’s heavier. Although one kg lighter than the popular GTK 100V 40A charger. 

[wstuart]

39 minutes ago, dycus said:

You guys are right, I thought about it more thoroughly. I may make some diagrams tomorrow to adequately explain it for everybody.

And people say it's hydraulic because the damping mechanisms are hydraulic... though the suspension is not! It bugs me too.

We say it's hydraulic because we don't have to buy a 600 psi pump and constantly check and top the thing off as we would with most other euc suspensions, and there is no visible spring.  This suspension is different from any other euc suspension.  If calling it "hydraulic" is "annoying", than what is the proper word to describe the difference. 

[wstuart]

21 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Caught the marketing buzzword that sounds kewl and better! The S22 is as "hydraulic" as Sherman-S, the difference is the S22 the spring is on the outside of the oil filled canister rather than being inside the oil filled canister as is the case with -S.

I always think of "sag" as getting the suspension into the section of its leverage curve where you'll be able to utilize as much of its range as you can. Or the portion of the curve that you want to operate within. Sure, it ends up changing the ride height, but it establishes your nominal/starting position in the leverage curve and unless you have a very linear suspension system there are better and worse places to start from. Of course, what's better and worse depends on rider preference, terrain, speed, and desired outcome.

But where is the lever?  Isn't this geometry and movement totally linear and parallel movement of the suspension components. 

[Clem604]

8 minutes ago, Kekafuch said:

C$ 186.43  21％ Off | Charger 90v 120v 0- 20A 15A Adjustable Charger 140v 10-120v LI-ION Lithium Lifepo4 Battery Pack Charger LTO
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mPJ5Yjy

 

Arrived in less than 10 days to Vancouver. 1-140V 0-15A option. Same as Roger Charger. It’s a used server power supply item but it’s been tested and set up with voltmeter and knobs for voltage and current adjustment. 
 

Take note that the current ratings is at 220V. At 110/120V outlet , you get half the current output. It’s good charger for using EV level 2. The seller will make you a plug adapter if you let them know what you want. 
 

Footprint is similar to stock Sherman charger but it’s heavier. Although one kg lighter than the popular GTK 100V 40A charger.

Awesome, thank you! I will add this to my list of chargers I'm considering. Is there anything else needed with the charger? I'm assuming I will need a GX-16 5 pin adapter?

 

Edit: I should've read your post more thoroughly.

 

Does the Sherman S use the GX-16 5 pin?

Edited January 18, 2023 by Clem604

[Demian B]

On 1/9/2023 at 11:56 PM, wstuart said:

When my wheel is on and standing still it makes a very faint and peculiar sound.  It sounds exactly like when someone in your house turns on the shower or turns the hose on outside and you can hear the water running through the the walls.  If you live in a big house with thick walls you might not relate to this, but anyway it sounds like running water inside the wheel down by the motor.  The sound gets a little louder as I roll the wheel back and forth.  I can't hear it at all while riding. 

I wondered if it was a fan, but it seems to be coming from the motor.  

Let me know if you guys hear anything like this in your wheel

I know what you're talking about.  I was wondering the same.  My Mten3 sometimes makes a similar sound but the SS sounds like Mtens daddy.  My OG Sherman makes a more consistent sound where the SS sounds more variable and fluid.  Definitely similar to sound of water through pipes though.

[KiwiMark]

10 minutes ago, wstuart said:

We say it's hydraulic because we don't have to buy a 600 psi pump and constantly check and top the thing off as we would with most other euc suspensions, and there is no visible spring.  This suspension is different from any other euc suspension.  If calling it "hydraulic" is "annoying", than what is the proper word to describe the difference. 

Coil over oil?

Oil damped spring shock?

It uses a spring instead of air, that doesn't exactly make it hydraulic.

[InfiniteWheelie]

@wstuart From my limited understanding, all suspension is "hydraulic".

I believe the hydraulic part in both cases is the rebound damping. Meaning you adjust the size of the hole the oil passes through when the suspension rises back up after a bump. This regulates (slows) how quickly how quickly it returns to it's uncompressed state.

The difference between the Sherman-S and the V13, is that the former uses a steel coil to absorb bumps, and the latter uses an air piston instead. So one uses coil suspension, the other uses air suspension. Both are "hydraulic", so no point using that word.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edited January 18, 2023 by InfiniteWheelie

[KiwiMark]

9 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

Does the Sherman S use the GX-16 5 pin?

Yes.  I think most of the 100.8V wheels use the same plug.