Sherman-S 3600wh: 100V, 20", suspension, 97lb

[Tawpie]

Great test and report, thank you! I especially like that you tested at the extreme ends—now that those are established it should be easier to get a reasonably close tune based on what you know about the upcoming terrain. Probably only applicable for radical changes in terrain (like a forest road to rock gardens) though.

[wstuart]

38 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Great test and report, thank you! I especially like that you tested at the extreme ends—now that those are established it should be easier to get a reasonably close tune based on what you know about the upcoming terrain. Probably only applicable for radical changes in terrain (like a forest road to rock gardens) though.

You are very welcome!  I was inspired by Wrongways video where he showed how these 4 combinations looked when bouncing up and down on the wheel in his apartment - but he didn't say anything about they felt when riding.

So my final setting was compression almost all the way hard (1.5 clicks from the top) and rebound about 70% fast (5 clicks away from fastest).

 

I think these 4 combinations represent extremes and arent really approprate for anyone.  They just demonstrate how the settings interact. Here is my overall conclusion of how to setup this suspension:

If you prioritize comfort, set the rebound faster than the compressions is hard.  For example, rebound 6 clicks from fastest and compression 9 clicks from hardest.

If you want performance and stability, set the compressiom harder than the rebound is fast.  For example compression 6 clicks from hardest and rebound 9 clicks from fastest. 

 

I think the total number of clicks depends largely on the person's weight  So a 240 lb rider like me should be running compression and rebound speed close to maxed out on hardness and fastness (as I am).  While a 140lb rider might run their numbers close to the bottom - closer to softest compression and slowest rebound. 

[wstuart]

6 hours ago, Funky said:

Waa 2000$ vs 4000$? You can get one wheel, or two for one price. I think that alone is pretty big difference.

Same.. But same time i limit myself for only what i need. Like in this year i'm gonna build amazing new computer. I could get rtx 4090 ti. intel 13900k.

But because i use 1440p screen and limit myself to 144 hertz. I don't need the best of best.  Something like rx7800xt. Ryzen 7700 will be plenty for my needs. And in most games that system alone will push near 200fps. But i need only 144.

But price difference is noticeable, about 4-5000$ for best of the best. Or ~2.500$ for what i need. Same as EUC's 1x or 2x price. You're choice. (At least PC i don't need to carry around, so i don't need to worry about it's weight.) 

C'mon...... get the 4090ti and play Cyberpunk on ultra settings at 144 fps.

.......and get the Sherman-S and hit those driveway dips at 25mph straight legged.  

 

Just messing with you.  Given what you are saying about being a heavier rider and riding sidewalks - you should get a 16x.  I'm 240lbs and I use a 16x as my sidewalk/ boardwalk wheel.  The torque and maneuverability is just amazing.  It pops up to 25mph soooo much faster than the 18xl.  Plus the 3 inch tire in combination with the flex Nylonova pedals make it feel like a suspension wheel.

 

I wanted to replace my sidewalk racer 16x with a suspension wheel.  I considered the t4, but after riding it this weekend, I was unimpressed.  

 

 

 

[Paul A]

11 hours ago, Funky said:

big guys

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04505-7

4 January 2023

Scientific journal.

Nature. 

 

The ‘breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

A class of drugs that quash hunger have shown striking results in trials and in practice.

 

The results astonished researchers: a weekly injection for almost 16 months, along with some lifestyle changes, reduced body weight by at least 20% in more than one-third of the participants¹.

Previous studies^2,3 had shown that the drug, semaglutide, was just as impressive in adults.

 

After decades of work, researchers are finally seeing signs of success: a new generation of anti-obesity medications that drastically diminish weight without the serious side effects that have plagued previous efforts.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, wstuart said:

Just messing with you.  Given what you are saying about being a heavier rider and riding sidewalks - you should get a 16x.  I'm 240lbs and I use a 16x as my sidewalk/ boardwalk wheel.  The torque and maneuverability is just amazing.  It pops up to 25mph soooo much faster than the 18xl.  Plus the 3 inch tire in combination with the flex Nylonova pedals make it feel like a suspension wheel.

 

I wanted to replace my sidewalk racer 16x with a suspension wheel.  I considered the t4, but after riding it this weekend, I was unimpressed.  

I have made my 18xl somewhat mix between 16x and 18xl. My pedals are higher by an ~inch. Thanks to the hextech pedals. And have installed 80/80 tire. Next time i will be installing 80/90 tire, which should be same as 18x3". (Ofc with side knobby cutting.. Height wise i think i can do it. Because i still got plenty room left. ~2Cm. But 80/90 tire is bigger by ~2Cm. The tire diameter is halved when installed. So in general sense i could do it.) And by having bigger tire again - my pedals will also go higher by extra. ~1Cm.

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-04505-7

4 January 2023

Scientific journal.

Nature. 

 

The ‘breakthrough’ obesity drugs that have stunned researchers

A class of drugs that quash hunger have shown striking results in trials and in practice.

 

The results astonished researchers: a weekly injection for almost 16 months, along with some lifestyle changes, reduced body weight by at least 20% in more than one-third of the participants¹.

Previous studies^2,3 had shown that the drug, semaglutide, was just as impressive in adults.

 

After decades of work, researchers are finally seeing signs of success: a new generation of anti-obesity medications that drastically diminish weight without the serious side effects that have plagued previous efforts.

I have no problem not eating.  I often do the "fasting" for 2-3 days. (Where you don't eat anything for 60-84hrs. Only drink water.) Have lost 7lbs so far without much of a effort.

First day normally is the hardest of not eating. Next day you get a energy boost. Because your body is starting to use/eat your fat. And best thing is when you break the "fasting" you still don't want to eat anything much. Same time you fix your appetite.

Before fasting i could eat and eat - i didn't feel full.. But after not eating for 3 days. You have cleaned your system and works wonders. I like to do that 2-3 times a month now.

It's easier to not eat at all vs count calories.  

I can only imagine if i actually did any exercise - it would work even better. But i'm lazy as a duck. Quack Quack.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Funky

[Paul A]

13 minutes ago, Funky said:

exercise

 

Maybe try googling 'Canadian Air Force exercises'.

They are High Intensity Interval Training (HIIT) exercises, but don't worry about trying to do many exercises with little rest time in between.

No equipment needed.

Pick the exercises desired, 30 secs an exercise. 

Do one exercise an hour.

See what happens after a week.

[EMA]

what spring/ weight are using people ?

how is going the 80+kg spring on 70kg riders ? do we have some reference ?

[wstuart]

7 hours ago, EMA said:

what spring/ weight are using people ?

how is going the 80+kg spring on 70kg riders ? do we have some reference ?

I remember hearing in some video that the suspension is so adjustable that you can compensate for having the "wrong spring".  This is consistent with my experience.  Even though I have the have spring, when I turn compression and rebound all the way down the suspension gets way too light for my 240lbs. 

For someone on the border with weight I think going heavier would be better if you plan to do any offroad or stairs.  You will be able to reduce the compression hardness and rebound to your weight.  

Edited January 16, 2023 by wstuart

[Alexutlang]

21 hours ago, Funky said:

Doh all those wheels in the "wild" are still kinda new.. After ~5000-10000 km there may be some problems. It's to early to talk about any wheel - which isn't at least year old. Have put on some distance.

 

I still would take Sherman Max over Sherman-S..

But that's me. I like wheels that doesn't need much of a maintenance. Also that direct feeling connected to ground. Nowadays everyone wants a suspension - everybody is so spoiled.  

I have 1000km on my SS now and no single issue so far🤞. SS is as maintenance free as Sherman Max. Suspension is set and forget, though it took me almost 200km to finally found my perfect settings for my type of riding.

[Funky]

59 minutes ago, Alexutlang said:

I have 1000km on my SS now and no single issue so far🤞. SS is as maintenance free as Sherman Max. Suspension is set and forget, though it took me almost 200km to finally found my perfect settings for my type of riding.

Have you opened the wheel lately? There have been shown some videos - how the suspension is rubbing against the metal inside, the area where sliders go up/down.. At meastly 100km some have already shown quit a worrying cases. I can imagine at 2000-4000km or later.. The metal will be rubbed down so badly that at some point the suspension will break.. Or won't be so smooth anymore.

I don't call it "set and forget". I call that potential crash risk at worst. Or at best premature replacement parts.

 

 

And anyone who wanna cry about me being negative so on again.. I'm pointing out an actual design problem!

Edited January 16, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

43 minutes ago, Funky said:

At meastly 100km some have already shown quit a worrying cases. I can imagine at 2000-4000km or later.. The metal will be rubbed down so badly that at some point the suspension will break.. Or won't be so smooth anymore.

To be fair, there is rubbing because there is not enough clearance. It is an easy fix. I doubt it would lead to catastrophic failure. You may see some wear marks, if the rider is aggressive.

Edited January 16, 2023 by techyiam

[Clem604]

1 hour ago, Funky said:

And anyone who wanna cry about me being negative so on again.. I'm pointing out an actual design problem!

I don't think anyone here has a problem with you pointing out possible design flaws and predicting potential issues, that feedback (sometimes opinions) are important and necessary to help these companies build better wheels.  I called you out that one time when you actively WISHED MISFORTUNE ON ANOTHER MEMBER to try and prove a point. I won't stand by that and I don't think it's at all necessary or helpful to the community here.

Going back on topic:

Yes those things you've pointed out I will be assessing after a few thousand KM's of riding and I will have my shop tear the wheel down to change the tire (again 😅) but to also check the long term wear on the inner parts to identify potential issues. I hope for the best but I'm ready for the worst.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Clem604

[wstuart]

1 hour ago, Alexutlang said:

I have 1000km on my SS now and no single issue so far🤞. SS is as maintenance free as Sherman Max. Suspension is set and forget, though it took me almost 200km to finally found my perfect settings for my type of riding.

Awesome!  Thanks for sharing.  I'm at 210km and I feel like I've finally got the suspension to my liking. 

Just curious, the suspension on your isn't making any additional noise?..... any additional stiction?

 

I saw these parts on aliexpress I don't know if these are upgrades or batch 2 revisions.  The title suggests they help with suspension "noise".  I wonder if they are meant to address the rubbing in some units. 

 

https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256804937855664.html?spm=a2g0n.productlist.0.0.5fecWeubWeubDN&browser_id=198bf600e0ba4df5bffa5b514a320c32&aff_trace_key=1eef7779ebe9489185152d495850befb-1673494862591-04638-UneMJZVf&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=ipbqg72zjh8caa7z185bbd9e52620153234e239428&gclid=&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!40.95!40.95!!!!!%402103223016738938987091397ef19b!12000031754552253!sea&curPageLogUid=MB4AF72DgDy2&isseo=y&algo_pvid=49a92e56-cf1f-42c6-bc70-364b4ea8811d

Edited January 16, 2023 by wstuart

[Clem604]

12 minutes ago, wstuart said:

 or batch 2 revisions.  The title suggests they help with suspension "noise".  I wonder if they are meant to address the rubbing in some units. 

 

https://m.aliexpress.us/item/3256804937855664.html?spm=a2g0n.productlist.0.0.5fecWeubWeubDN&browser_id=198bf600e0ba4df5bffa5b514a320c32&aff_trace_key=1eef7779ebe9489185152d495850befb-1673494862591-04638-UneMJZVf&aff_platform=msite&m_page_id=ipbqg72zjh8caa7z185bbd9e52620153234e239428&gclid=&pdp_npi=2%40dis!USD!40.95!40.95!!!!!%402103223016738938987091397ef19b!12000031754552253!sea&curPageLogUid=MB4AF72DgDy2&isseo=y&algo_pvid=49a92e56-cf1f-42c6-bc70-364b4ea8811d

That is just a translation issue, I spoke with the GT King Store to have them update the ad with the title "Suspension Clamp" instead of click.

[Funky]

42 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

I don't think anyone here has a problem with you pointing out possible design flaws and predicting potential issues, that feedback (sometimes opinions) are important and necessary to help these companies build better wheels.  I called you out that one time when you actively WISHED MISFORTUNE ON ANOTHER MEMBER to try and prove a point. I won't stand by that and I don't think it's at all necessary or helpful to the community here.

Bro. All i said was "Enjoy first batch lemon" (Or something in those lines.. Or was there another post? Because i said that in: Inmotion V13 Speculation) Before hell let loose.  How is that wishing misfortune on someone? (Most people who buy first batch, new wheels right of manufacturers.. Already know those wheel "MAY" have some kind problem.) Some wheels can even come right out dead at arrival. I bet most would agree that there is a some risk buying the first batch, yes?

But jezz some people get so burthurt over nothing. I could give to ducks some anonymous guy/gal is saying on forums. I don't know who you are, etc..  I like to imagine that i'm talking to a donkey from shrek. (Sorry about that joke - if i hurt your sensitive feelings again. -Not)  Because i don't know you and who you are. And getting buthurt over some dumb words? By some random guy on internet isn't even worth the time.

In my mind it was more like a fun way of a reminder, word play. That you may encounter some hardships as being first batch owner - Luckily it seems S-S is doing well! 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Funky

[wstuart]

10 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

That is just a translation issue, I spoke with the GT King Store to have them update the ad with the title "Suspension Clamp" instead of click.

Oh I see.  So is it an upgrade part? - or in any way different from the stock "suspension clamp"?

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, wstuart said:

I remember hearing in some video that tw suspension is so adjustable that you can compensate for having the "wrong spring". 

Unfortunately, no you really can't. Especially so with coil Vs air.

A rule of thumb, honed from millions of miles in the mtb world over various terrain is that 25 to 30% static sag is optimal. I run 25% front, 30% rear. Only because I like the ride as compliant as possible but I really dont want to be in a situation where I bottom the forks out on a cased jump so I run a little less sag there.

One wheels are different, we dont get to pick out preferred front/rear bias but the rule of thumb absolutely remains.

No amount of damping adjustment (compression or rebound) will solve a sag problem. Yes on a too soft spring you could crank comp up enough to maybe prevent a bottom out but you will be riding a harsher wheel everywhere. If your spring is too hard (less than 25% sag) then you will unlikely ever use full travel and any reduction in damping wont change that. Plus you will be riding firmer than needed.

Either way guys, unless you are going to get it right you may as well go with a Sherman Max and do away with the added weight, complexity and servicing requirements of a suspension system.

Get it right though and you will be handsomely rewarded. And there is every potential for the SS to be right for everyone, albeit with the need for maybe a few more spring options. But until we get some more feedback on what sag people are experiencing relative to weight, we wont know.

Its really not rocket science. I would like every SS owner to back off comp and rebound damping to zero, carefully mount the wheel in a static condition (eg use a wall to assist) and see what sag you are seeing.

It wont take long to build up some data points on rider weight Vs the 2 spring options available.

As a final point, using spring preload to adjust static ride height is a crutch and although the SS does give us that option its far from ideal for various reasons, specifically its not sag, its ride height. Big difference. Hence why Fox, Ohlins etc make numerous spring poundages rather than simply having a super long preload thread.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

So is it an upgrade part? - or in any way different from the stock "suspension clamp"?

If the part in the picture is the part being shipped, then I would say it is the original part. Dimensionally, it looked to be the same.

Highly doubtful they decided to machined the new part from a billet. It doesn't look like it anyway. Hence, if the part is not larger in the fractured area, the force to fracture will be the same. And thus, it is the same old part.

Edited January 16, 2023 by techyiam

[Clem604]

47 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Oh I see.  So is it an upgrade part? - or in any way different from the stock "suspension clamp"?

No unfortunately, I believe it's the same part as is on the wheel and a replacement for those who have cracked theirs. When I asked the GT King people didn't mention that it was revised in any way.

Edited January 16, 2023 by Clem604

[DragonFZ]

13 hours ago, wstuart said:

You are very welcome!  I was inspired by Wrongways video where he showed how these 4 combinations looked when bouncing up and down on the wheel in his apartment - but he didn't say anything about they felt when riding.

So my final setting was compression almost all the way hard (1.5 clicks from the top) and rebound about 70% fast (5 clicks away from fastest).

 

I think these 4 combinations represent extremes and arent really approprate for anyone.  They just demonstrate how the settings interact. Here is my overall conclusion of how to setup this suspension:

If you prioritize comfort, set the rebound faster than the compressions is hard.  For example, rebound 6 clicks from fastest and compression 9 clicks from hardest.

If you want performance and stability, set the compressiom harder than the rebound is fast.  For example compression 6 clicks from hardest and rebound 9 clicks from fastest. 

 

I think the total number of clicks depends largely on the person's weight  So a 240 lb rider like me should be running compression and rebound speed close to maxed out on hardness and fastness (as I am).  While a 140lb rider might run their numbers close to the bottom - closer to softest compression and slowest rebound. 

Thank you very much for the information. It help me alot. Note: the manual states 12 clicks for compression and 18 clicks for Rebound.
The suspension on my SS came at (default): Compression (blue) 6 clicks (clockwise) to max Hardest.  Rebound (red) 9 clicks (clockwise) to max Slowest.

I'm 200lbs without gear. I like the default setting it came with. Of course, I don't know any better and afraid of messing things up.
I set my compression (blue) 4 clicks (counter clockwise) from max Hardest. Rebound (red) 9 clicks (counter clockwise) from max slowest.|
Yes, I know it is only 2 clicks difference from Default.

[wstuart]

43 minutes ago, DragonFZ said:

Thank you very much for the information. It help me alot. Note: the manual states 12 clicks for compression and 18 clicks for Rebound.
The suspension on my SS came at (default): Compression (blue) 6 clicks (clockwise) to max Hardest.  Rebound (red) 9 clicks (clockwise) to max Slowest.

I'm 200lbs without gear. I like the default setting it came with. Of course, I don't know any better and afraid of messing things up.
I set my compression (blue) 4 clicks (counter clockwise) from max Hardest. Rebound (red) 9 clicks (counter clockwise) from max slowest.|
Yes, I know it is only 2 clicks difference from Default.

Yup I felt exactly the same way.  I didn't deviate more than 3 click from the default center position for the first 120 miles.  I think that's a good approach because it took me at lest 100 miles to get used to the wheel.  If I tried to do this suspension setting at mile 50, I wouldn't have been able to feel the differences.   I think the setting you have right now is a good for your weight. Maybe just experiment with setting compression firmer and rebound faster.  

When you get to 100 miles (or whenever you feel comfortable) try the test I did.  I also was concerned I would mess something up, but I don't think there's an actual risk.  

 

Also:  I remember reading that one side has 12 clicks and the other has 18,  but when I counted the clicks on mine, one side has 18 and the other had 19...????  I don't think it matters, just seemed strange to me.  

[wstuart]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

Unfortunately, no you really can't. Especially so with coil Vs air.

A rule of thumb, honed from millions of miles in the mtb world over various terrain is that 25 to 30% static sag is optimal. I run 25% front, 30% rear. Only because I like the ride as compliant as possible but I really dont want to be in a situation where I bottom the forks out on a cased jump so I run a little less sag there.

One wheels are different, we dont get to pick out preferred front/rear bias but the rule of thumb absolutely remains.

No amount of damping adjustment (compression or rebound) will solve a sag problem. Yes on a too soft spring you could crank comp up enough to maybe prevent a bottom out but you will be riding a harsher wheel everywhere. If your spring is too hard (less than 25% sag) then you will unlikely ever use full travel and any reduction in damping wont change that. Plus you will be riding firmer than needed.

Either way guys, unless you are going to get it right you may as well go with a Sherman Max and do away with the added weight, complexity and servicing requirements of a suspension system.

Get it right though and you will be handsomely rewarded. And there is every potential for the SS to be right for everyone, albeit with the need for maybe a few more spring options. But until we get some more feedback on what sag people are experiencing relative to weight, we wont know.

Its really not rocket science. I would like every SS owner to back off comp and rebound damping to zero, carefully mount the wheel in a static condition (eg use a wall to assist) and see what sag you are seeing.

It wont take long to build up some data points on rider weight Vs the 2 spring options available.

As a final point, using spring preload to adjust static ride height is a crutch and although the SS does give us that option its far from ideal for various reasons, specifically its not sag, its ride height. Big difference. Hence why Fox, Ohlins etc make numerous spring poundages rather than simply having a super long preload thread.

Interesting. I havent noticed huge difference in ride heights or "sag" from changing pre load.  I will mess with mine though and see if I can get some data.  

Edited January 16, 2023 by wstuart

[Tawpie]

35 minutes ago, wstuart said:

Interesting. I avenet noticed wild-eyed different ride heights or "sag" from changing pre load.  I will mess with mine though and see if I can get some data.  

They aren't much—pretty small adjustment really. Then again, changing the mechanical pedal position on wheels like S22 and V13 doesn't raise/lower things by much, but in a rock garden, sometimes a little is what you want!

[Adel]

Has anyone got the Sherman S with the Kenda 340 street tire (Ewheels ships some configured this way). How does it ride compared to the Kenda 262, are you happy with the tire choice.

[Slartibartfast]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

As a final point, using spring preload to adjust static ride height is a crutch and although the SS does give us that option its far from ideal for various reasons, specifically its not sag, its ride height.

Are you sure? I thought preload specifically did adjust sag and not ride-height. As in I thought "preload" compressed the spring some before you even stepped on (such that the spring needs to travel less to support your weight).

 

Say your static load compresses the spring to 70% of its length when you stand on it. With out any preload the shocks would sink that 30% when you step on to get to the static height. If however you added say 10% "preload" the spring would be compressed to 90% of its range before you even step on and will only sag by the remaining 20% to get to the static load height. If you preloaded to 25% of the range then you would only have a 5% sag. The end result being that once standing on it the suspension is always statically compressed to 70% of it's range and in effect the preload just changes how far "up" the suspension rises when you step off.

In the extreme if you were to preload by say 40% of the range (probably not possible with our system) then there would be no sag at all because the preload would already have compressed the spring beyond the 70% static load you would otherwise give when standing on it. In this case the ride height would be down to 60% of it's range (thus it would indeed be 10% lower than it would be otherwise) but all that compression would be coming from the preload and your actual weight wouldn't be having any affect on the static height at all.

Is that not how preload works?