Why are wheels so crazy heavy nowadays?

[supercurio]

I don't care much about the weight either, and I agree that it can contribute positively to the stability at any speed.
As long as the wheel has sufficient torque, weight is not a really a problem in off-road situations either, and you can go over obstacles just fine with a combination of lift & bonk to launch it wherever needed (having good success so far with Sherman off-road)

The only thing I don't like with weight is for technical off-road, is when you fall one way or another and a 35kg+ wheel falls on you.
It can be painful and get you bruised in various places, especially if the shell has any sharp corners.
In that sense, the S20 is really gonna hurt.

Weight also makes it more difficult to catch the wheel when you lose grip/balance off-road, but it helps to have places to grab it.

Edited March 22, 2022 by supercurio

[EMA]

5 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Let's try a different approach:

If your high-speed, high-range wheel could have any weight you wanted, which weight would that be? So that it still is stable etc.

20kg?

25kg?

30kg?

More?

Would you want different weights for offroad and on-road riding?

Is there a perfect weight for a performance wheel, or does it depend on what you want to use it for?

i will always choose the less weight possible, no doubt .

when riding offroad the difference is even more, becouse you fight the wheel a lot more compare streets

[supercurio]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Let's try a different approach:

If your high-speed, high-range wheel could have any weight you wanted, which weight would that be? So that it still is stable etc.

20kg?

25kg?

30kg?

More?

Would you want different weights for offroad and on-road riding?

Is there a perfect weight for a performance wheel, or does it depend on what you want to use it for?

I think more weight has benefits for high speed riding, and it's most notable when encountering potholes or speed bumps.
My theory, please correct me if I'm wrong:
(with some completely fantasy numbers, and math is all wrong)

19" tire, 1kg wheel, riding at 50 km/h:

• Hitting a 10cm obstacle will slow down abruptly the wheel from from 50km/h forward to 40km/h forward and 10km/h upwards.
• The amount of vertical energy to dampen in your legs will be minimal.
• Rider speed is still 50km/h forward, with the wheel now at 40km/h - easy to fall forward or would hit the power pads really hard. Delta 10km/h.

19" tire, 35kg wheel, riding at 50 km/h:

• Hitting a 10cm obstacle will slow down abruptly the wheel from from 50km/h forward to 49km/h forward and 2km/h upwards.
• The amount of vertical energy to dampen in your legs will be increased due to the higher mass of the wheel.
• Rider speed is still 50km/h forward, with the wheel now at 49km/h. Feels stable, Delta 1km/h, barely noticeable.

That's why I choose the 35kg wheel here, because its forward speed is less affected by obstacles on the road thanks - while my rider's speed remains unaffected.
Since the forward speed of the wheel remains closer to my rider speed when hitting an obstacle (the later doesn't change) it feels safer for high speed riding to have a heavier wheel.

 

Note: I just made this up so it could be a bunch of nonsense.

Edited March 22, 2022 by supercurio

[RagingGrandpa]

26 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I think more weight has benefits for high speed riding

No need to be theoretical... strap on 20lb of training weights and go ride a Nikola on a poor road. Then take off the weight. Then tell us which you prefer  

[Funky]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Let's try a different approach:

If your high-speed, high-range wheel could have any weight you wanted, which weight would that be? So that it still is stable etc.

20kg?

25kg?

30kg?

More?

Would you want different weights for offroad and on-road riding?

Is there a perfect weight for a performance wheel, or does it depend on what you want to use it for?

I chose 0 kg, if i could. xD No weight No pain.

Any weight you get used to it while riding. Bigger tire = more tire weight = more gyro effect at speed. I think that gives stability at speed.

When i put on K66 tire(2xweight) i have noticed that i hear more speed alarms, because wheel is going so smoothly now.

Edited March 22, 2022 by Funky

[LanghamP]

On 3/22/2022 at 8:33 AM, meepmeepmayer said:

Let's try a different approach:

If your high-speed, high-range wheel could have any weight you wanted, which weight would that be? So that it still is stable etc.

20kg?

25kg?

30kg?

More?

Would you want different weights for offroad and on-road riding?

Is there a perfect weight for a performance wheel, or does it depend on what you want to use it for?

Having enjoyed most of the teardown videos of just about every wheel ever made, I don't see a lot of wasted weight. It even seems to me the manufacturers are only putting as much as material needed to do its job, and not much more. No one opens these wheels and wonders why they didn't leave something out.

Maybe the hollow axle that is required to run extremely thick wires, and the cantilevered pedals, is where most of the weight is, and that seems to on an ever-heavier trend. Those pedals don't just need to support a 350 pound person; they probably need to support maybe 1500 instantaneous pounds so they won't break under duress.

Maybe ask someone from eWheels?

[meepmeepmayer]

16 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I don't see a lot of wasted weight

I always wondered if the steel supporting structure of the motors needs to be that heavy.

[EMA]

34 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

I always wondered if the steel supporting structure of the motors needs to be that heavy.

i think motor could be lighter but at what cost ?

pillars + pedals are not so heavy and they hold basically the entire weight (rider + shell + batteries )

[meepmeepmayer]

I meant the structure inside the motor (what you see when you take the motor side caps off), if I wasn't clear.

I stand corrected. Here's a picture from EcoDrift's latest S20 disassembly. Pretty thin and light already!

Guess that means the weight can't be fixed by one thing, but by reducing the weight of everything, if possible.

[alcatraz]

1 hour ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Looks great.

Mostly aluminum. The huge bearings are heavy but the alternative is a steel axle which isn't light either.

Edited March 29, 2022 by alcatraz

[Eucner]

9 minutes ago, alcatraz said:

Mostly aluminum. The huge bearings are heavy but the alternative is a steel axle which isn't light either.

The hollow axle is also made from steel and it is heavier than small axle.

[Jon Stern]

Here's a motor that achieves very high W/kg: 250kW in 29kg (63 lbs), by combining radial and axial flux configurations. I suspect it needs liquid cooling though: https://jalopnik.com/koenigseggs-tiny-electric-motor-is-an-absolute-monster-1848459505

Edited March 29, 2022 by Jon Stern

[techyiam]

44 minutes ago, Eucner said:

The hollow axle is also made from steel and it is heavier than small axle.

Are you referring to the S20 hollow axle? If you are, how do you know that it is made from steel?

[alcatraz]

The axle pictured is most unlikely steel. There's a lot of material in it, indicating it's a lighter alloy, probably aluminum.

When the axle diameter grows you need very little material to withstand the same stresses. A solid steel axle would turn to a very very thin walled larger diameter hollow axle, as the diameter grows. Kind of like a tube. Because it's aluminum, it's been enlarged.

Aluminum has been used as ultra light axles in cycling for a long time. They work well except for the interface with the steel bearings. The bearings, being much harder, start to eat up the aluminum over time and a loose fit develops. An analogy would be, the running of a train on pavement. You can mitigate the problem by running a wide bearing race to spread out the load over the softer axle.

[Eucner]

7 hours ago, techyiam said:

Are you referring to the S20 hollow axle? If you are, how do you know that it is made from steel?

The S20 seems to be aluminium indeed.

[ARo]

I remember that first time I got into euc-s and was like - Damn, so much range and power in a light, portable package - now they just need to make those wheels more reliable, improve weather proofing, ergonomics & quality control and we will have the ultimate compact city commuter to replace all those clunky e-scooters.

Fast forward a few years and none of those things have really happened - just bigger batteries and more powerful motors have been slapped on.

I am still quite convinced tho that, wile most people in this forum  don't seem to care about being able to lift and carry their wheels, 85% of euc owners actually find that 'feature' to be quite important, perhaps even one of the main reasons to own an euc.

[Slashebeest]

Weight is the reason why I sold my veteran sherman and returned to my 16x.

Yes it was more stable, but all the fun/nimbleness I had with my 16x was gone, and I was constantly riding +40km/h.

And I also didn't need the extra range the veteran had.

I was looking into buying a V12 since it's a bit in the same category as my 16x but with the mosfet problems...

A 25kg wheel with a bit more range and headroom regarding top speed than my 16x would be my perfect wheel.

[EMA]

51 minutes ago, ARo said:

I remember that first time I got into euc-s and was like - Damn, so much range and power in a light, portable package - now they just need to make those wheels more reliable, improve weather proofing, ergonomics & quality control and we will have the ultimate compact city commuter to replace all those clunky e-scooters.

Fast forward a few years and none of those things have really happened - just bigger batteries and more powerful motors have been slapped on.

I am still quite convinced tho that, wile most people in this forum  don't seem to care about being able to lift and carry their wheels, 85% of euc owners actually find that 'feature' to be quite important, perhaps even one of the main reasons to own an euc.

weight is a key factor, just choose the right wheel for the right purpose the market grow up into the enthusiast segment but we still have little awesome commuting wheels

7 minutes ago, Slashebeest said:

Weight is the reason why I sold my veteran sherman and returned to my 16x.

Yes it was more stable, but all the fun/nimbleness I had with my 16x was gone, and I was constantly riding +40km/h.

And I also didn't need the extra range the veteran had.

I was looking into buying a V12 since it's a bit in the same category as my 16x but with the mosfet problems...

A 25kg wheel with a bit more range and headroom regarding top speed than my 16x would be my perfect wheel.

best example, why use a sherman if the range of 16x is ok

why don't you get a nik ? even before the cutout problem i really don't see why get a v12 when you can have:

• nikola --> the same wheel with 4kg less
• exn --> 2kg more but a completely superior class wheel

jm2c

[techyiam]

47 minutes ago, EMA said:

why don't you get a nik ? even before the cutout problem i really don't see why get a v12 when you can have:

• nikola --> the same wheel with 4kg less
• exn --> 2kg more but a completely superior class wheel

jm2c

Good point.

But before the V12 mosfet problem was known, the Nicola was one of the wheels that Jason warned people about potential fire hazards, due to the battery packs. The V12 is also newer and has pretty good build quality. Also some reviewers like Jack ex-Kingsong didn't like the Nicola. But now, I think it can be argued either way.

For me, the EX-N was definitely a candidate, but the dealer didn't want me to buy it because he felt it had poor weather protection. I can't really argue against the lack of weather protection, but I could have weather proof it myself. I actually like riding the EX-N because it rode just like a slightly heavier T3. The V11 or V12 rode very differently. Even the Commander rode like a T3, except with even more weight than the EX-N. The Gotway/ Begode DNA was very apparent in the Begode wheels (except for the Hero). Getting on the RS19, EX-N, and Commander, all felt very similar to the T3. I was pleasantly surprised. Furthermore, in terms of agility, the EX-N felt much closer to the V12 than the Sherman ever could.

Edited March 30, 2022 by techyiam

[Planemo]

5 hours ago, ARo said:

I remember that first time I got into euc-s and was like - Damn, so much range and power in a light, portable package - now they just need to make those wheels more reliable, improve weather proofing, ergonomics & quality control and we will have the ultimate compact city commuter to replace all those clunky e-scooters.

Fast forward a few years and none of those things have really happened - just bigger batteries and more powerful motors have been slapped on.

I am still quite convinced tho that, wile most people in this forum  don't seem to care about being able to lift and carry their wheels, 85% of euc owners actually find that 'feature' to be quite important, perhaps even one of the main reasons to own an euc.

You make a good point, I had never really considered this because I will never be in the market for a lightweight wheel with low range, but I think all the manufacturers are missing a big market with not having a bulletproof compact wheel with proper water protection and say 1500wh/20mph cruise speed. They really need to make a Tesla type wheel with all the above and I think it would sell very well indeed. The KS16X had the potential to achieve it, but got let down by its water protection and the fact that it's actually quite a big wheel for the specs. It certainly seemed bigger than the Tesla but I could be wrong, and a couple of kilos heavier than the Tesla IIRC.

[Funky]

20 minutes ago, Planemo said:

You make a good point, I had never really considered this because I will never be in the market for a lightweight wheel with low range, but I think all the manufacturers are missing a big market with not having a bulletproof compact wheel with proper water protection and say 1500wh/20mph cruise speed. They really need to make a Tesla type wheel with all the above and I think it would sell very well indeed. The KS16X had the potential to achieve it, but got let down by its water protection and the fact that it's actually quite a big wheel for the specs. It certainly seemed bigger than the Tesla but I could be wrong, and a couple of kilos heavier than the Tesla IIRC.

That's what i'm talking about also. Companies would sell so much more product, if they where making something "good" not average. In this thread where mentioned a lot of that:

We can just hope, dream when they will make something good.

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Planemo said:

The KS16X had the potential to achieve it, but got let down by its water protection and the fact that it's actually quite a big wheel for the specs

It is "bigger", but it is also a 1500 Wh wheel and batteries are batteries. The Tesla V2 was 1100 Wh, V3 went to 1500Wh. KS fixed the 16X water issues that the first batches had BTW, it's not really fair to ding it for its suitability for riding in the wet.

[Planemo]

19 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

The Tesla V2 was 1100 Wh, V3 went to 1500Wh.

Exactly, the V3 was 1500Wh so not sure why the V2 was even mentioned. All I was saying is that its virtually the same Wh as 16X, which is bigger and heavier.

19 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

KS fixed the 16X water issues that the first batches had BTW, it's not really fair to ding it for its suitability for riding in the wet.

If you think ANY of the current wheels are suitable for riding in the rain then you are a braver man than I. I take great note of how wheels are built and the only one I would trust in the rain is the Z10, and even they can have a problem with the power button but at least it won't lead to a crash/board failure/fire.

[EMA]

tesla3 is really nice for commuting, with 2.5 inch tire will be a beast, also the lightest 1500wh 
18L even with 1000wh battery is nice in the city

mcm5 it's the best in the smaller size

[ARo]

As far as range and power go, I am quite ok with even the 1080wh Tesla V2 tbh - what it's really missing is refinement, as is the V3 from what I can see (still the same uncomfortable handle, poor lights, no upgrades to BMS/board(?)) - at least nice to see they did make a upgraded version of a commuter wheel.

Now if they could make a V11 v2 that is a bit lighter and doesn't have all the reliability issues - that would be sexy wheel tho...