V12 Cutout tracking

[jimjam.nyc]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Another report of replacement board failing, no details yet but stay tuned.

Please keep in mind if riding the V12 that black replacement boards are not proven yet, with 2 failures reported so far, with cause not understood at the moment.
Damn.

A bit disappointing to hear. I guess we will learn more as more boards get replaced. I am wondering if the causes of these issues are more along the lines of just crappy QC as a whole or shoddy parts due to supply chain being so crap for a year+. Lots of new V11's having issues too which is why i say this. 

We all know the mosfets for the v12 were underpowered no matter what, but i just wonder if the sheer number of failures are more wider spread and due to multiple reasons. 

Would be curious if these wheels with the new boards are just cutting out, and not blowing the new mosfets. Which would kind of point to a different issue.. the weak mosfets were just the casualty of a different problem.

Edit: Part of me wonders if my Odds are better sticking with my OG batch 1 Non-Mass Produced v12.(at least for now) Seem like its turning out to be a coin flip either way. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by jimjam.nyc

[Tawpie]

On 5/26/2022 at 2:02 PM, Paul g said:

Does anybody, by any chance, knows what kind of protective coating InMotion boards have? Mine has the coating executed poorly and probably they’re all the same, so I try to buy some coating solution to do it my self properly on the next one.

If it comes off cleanly with isopropyl, it’s probably an acrylic, something like Future floor “wax”.

[Paul g]

5 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

A bit disappointing to hear. I guess we will learn more as more boards get replaced. I am wondering if the causes of these issues are more along the lines of just crappy QC as a whole or shoddy parts due to supply chain being so crap for a year+. Lots of new V11's having issues too which is why i say this. 

We all know the mosfets for the v12 were underpowered no matter what, but i just wonder if the sheer number of failures are more wider spread and due to multiple reasons. 

Would be curious if these wheels with the new boards are just cutting out, and not blowing the new mosfets. Which would kind of point to a different issue.. the weak mosfets were just the casualty of a different problem.

Edit: Part of me wonders if my Odds are better sticking with my OG batch 1 Non-Mass Produced v12.(at least for now) Seem like its turning out to be a coin flip either way. 

The case of updated roasted board I know about has burned MOSFETs. 

Yes, the new 150V MOSFETs.

[Paul g]

I can’t say I like this company too much. I spent so much money on a wheel that doesn’t work. I don’t have money to buy another one right now because I had some serious health issues. It took them almost half a year to change the MOSFETs. . How much it will take them to solve this problem? Another half a year? And what do we do in this time? I’m watching my V12 gathering dust in a corner. I give it a clean from time to time. I didn’t buy it to look at it but to ride it, to go out and have fun time on it. I just can’t believe this is becoming an unending disaster. @Inmotion Global should refund us all and take this crap back. I have all those money trapped in this wheel since I preordered it a year ago. I managed to ride it in total for 10 days or so. That was it. 

[Paul g]

6 hours ago, Tawpie said:

If it comes off cleanly with isopropyl, it’s probably an acrylic, something like Future floor “wax”.

Thanks, @Tawpie! It’s crazy that something like that is used for this purpose. I’ll keep this in mind for my next wheel.

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

6 hours ago, Paul g said:

The case of updated roasted board I know about has burned MOSFETs. 

Yes, the new 150V MOSFETs.

Can you provide any further information on this? It would be great to get all cards on the table as soon as possible so there's no ambiguity with regards to presenting it to Inmotion.

[Paul g]

2 hours ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

Can you provide any further information on this? It would be great to get all cards on the table as soon as possible so there's no ambiguity with regards to presenting it to Inmotion.

@Brendan "nog3" Halliday I would not be worried about that, InMotion was immediately informed about what happened. 

[Steve Evans]

5 hours ago, Paul g said:

@Brendan "nog3" Halliday I would not be worried about that, InMotion was immediately informed about what happened. 

damn it... i am getting that sinking feeling again. **sigh** 

[jimjam.nyc]

35 minutes ago, evans036 said:

damn it... i am getting that sinking feeling again. **sigh** 

I kind of have a feeling this push on inmotion to quickly blame the weak mosfets, then inmotion rushing to get a fix to this out in the middle of a supply issue to please angry people may have been a bit of a mistake in hindsight.  

In all of this we totally lost the fact that we had testers with perfectly functioning v12s for probably the better part of a year. I also know more than a handful of people including myself with perfectly functioning v12s first batch for over 1000 miles. I get it that our wheels may fail.. but so far they havent and i am riding on garbage roads all the time in NYC. 

I understand the mosfets were def. underspecced and a weak link, but I just don't think it was smart to rush to that being the actual problem. I feel like there could have been a bigger problem missed

If you look out there right now there are quality issues across all new wheels. Veterans wheels are coming in with issues. The Abrams is a bit of a mess, and i am seeing the sherman max's are also having issues.  v11's are cutting out and some burning up. kingsongs s20,s22 and maybe the s24 (who knows) is not exactly the best made thing either with software fixes for hardware downfalls.

ALL of that aside. Looking at just the v12 replacement boards.. Everyone from dealers with experience rushing to get repairs done, to people in their homes with little to no experience are installing these. It will be tough to know if there is even an actual issue or not. Too many variables.

This is not a rant. As an owner of one of the new wheels, i appreciate that the community here is so involved. This is more of a thought about the state of things as a whole right now if you are looking to purchase one of the latest wheels out there. I think a lot of consumers are in the same boat right now. 

 

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

In all of this we totally lost the fact that we had testers with perfectly functioning v12s for probably the better part of a year. I also know more than a handful of people including myself with perfectly functioning v12s first batch for over 1000 miles. I get it that our wheels may fail.. but so far they havent and i am riding on garbage roads all the time in NYC.

That doesn't say much, the fact is that original mosfets are not up to spec and will degrade over time because of that, essentially making the problem a ticking bomb.

If your wheel breaks at high speed even if you have 2000 miles on it I bet you wont be happy about it.

[jimjam.nyc]

12 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

That doesn't say much, the fact is that original mosfets are not up to spec and will degrade over time because of that, essentially making the problem a ticking bomb.

If your wheel breaks at high speed even if you have 2000 miles on it I bet you wont be happy about it.

Oh i am not defending my currently working wheel with a weak link at all. I am just saying no matter what wheel you are purchasing at this point in time, it seems to be at risk for one reason or another. Its not a defense for these companies or even a way to make myself feel better. 

But the truth is I choose to ride a vehicle that has almost NO redundancies from the start.. A cutout sucks, but the risk is there no matter what. Lets be real these are all put together in china with varying amounts of QC across the board. Batch 1 may be better than batch 2, but batch 3 may be crap across the board. The point i am making is it seems to be a crapshoot even if you replace your crappy board with another crappy board but just with beefier mosfets.. 

what is the point if there is a 10% risk you get a faulty piece of crap either way. The confidence is shot at this point. 

I am just hoping they find out these new boards are just being installed with mistakes. Either way I am no longer in a rush to swap my board. when it comes it comes. 

EDIT: on top of it you have to buy firesaks and smoke alarms, etc. Just to add to my point that NOBODY feels safe with these in all sorts of situations across the board. We still buy them and choose to take these risks for some reason. I am onboard to get better products in our hands, but the truth is its just not there yet. Not even close really. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by jimjam.nyc

[Rawnei]

2 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

Oh i am not defending my currently working wheel with a weak link at all. I am just saying no matter what wheel you are purchasing at this point in time, it seems to be at risk for one reason or another. Its not a defense for these companies or even a way to make myself feel better. 

But the truth is I choose to ride a vehicle that has almost NO redundancies from the start.. A cutout sucks, but the risk is there no matter what. Lets be real these are all put together in china with varying amounts of QC across the board. Batch 1 may be better than batch 2, but batch 3 may be crap across the board. The point i am making is it seems to be a crapshoot even if you replace your crappy board with another crappy board but just with beefier mosfets.. 

what is the point if there is a 10% risk you get a faulty piece of crap either way. The confidence is shot at this point. 

I am just hoping they find out these new boards are just being installed with mistakes. Either way I am no longer in a rush to swap my board. when it comes it comes. 

 

I think it's apples and oranges, bad QC and something that breaks because of say a bad solder job is one thing, QC can of course be improved but it's a more diffuse problem, on the other hand an engineering mistake in the design is another type of problem that can reliably be fixed with an engineering solution once the problem is known and understood.

I reserve my doubts for the replacement boards being bad by design but I do think doing the replacement in itself is a problem since they are not done by Inmotion and it looks more complicated since you have to get the heatsink connection right.

[jimjam.nyc]

1 minute ago, Rawnei said:

I think it's apples and oranges, bad QC and something that breaks because of say a bad solder job is one thing, QC can of course be improved but it's a more diffuse problem, on the other hand an engineering mistake in the design is another type of problem that can reliably be fixed with an engineering solution once the problem is known and understood.

I understand your point. I just think there was a rush to point at one engineering mistake as the sole issue here. Many of these blown mosfets happened at very low mileage and at very low stress points, like going down a curb while trollying the wheel. Some are still going strong. Its just not a consistent enough result to actually point at any specific problem. There could be many reasons for this including but not limited to under specced mosfets. My point is the mosfets needed to be fixed yes, but there was a huge rush to point to that as the problem, where it very well may be multiple bad engineering choices.. Or even just a faulty batch of parts on any part of the driver boards.

I am not disagreeing the fets needed to be upgraded no matter what. I am just voicing that i hope this was the only issue!

7 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

I reserve my doubts for the replacement boards being bad by design but I do think doing the replacement in itself is a problem since they are not done by Inmotion and it looks more complicated since you have to get the heatsink connection right.

Same here. I really hope this is the issue.

[Steve Evans]

7 hours ago, Rawnei said:

I reserve my doubts for the replacement boards being bad by design but I do think doing the replacement in itself is a problem since they are not done by Inmotion and it looks more complicated since you have to get the heatsink connection right.

yeah, in my case the new driver board had been squished during transit such that all the mosfets had been push onto the pcb. one of the mosfets was not only bent but also pushed sideways which made it really difficult getting the heatsink holes to align.

first attempt at install caused a short between the mosfet and the heat sink (found the short via multi-meter). on the second attempt i managed to get everything lined up before tightening the heatsink/mosfet bolts and it seems fine now.

the temp sensor on the board also had to be epoxied because it had come loose due to bending of mosfet during shipping

the v12 seems to be running fine after riding 20miles

pic of driver board as delivered:

 

[Paradox]

11 minutes ago, evans036 said:

yeah, in my case the new driver board had been squished during transit

This is awful.  Who sent you  the board?  How was it packaged so carelessly?

[Robse]

24 minutes ago, evans036 said:

yeah, in my case the new driver board had been squished during transit such that all the mosfets had been push onto the pcb. one of the mosfets was not only bent but also pushed sideways which made it really difficult getting the heatsink holes to align.

first attempt at install caused a short between the mosfet and the heat sink (found the short via multi-meter). on the second attempt i managed to get everything lined up before tightening the heatsink/mosfet bolts and it seems fine now.

the temp sensor on the board also had to be epoxied because it had come loose due to bending of mosfet during shipping

the v12 seems to be running fine after riding 20miles

pic of driver board as delivered:

 

My respect that you dare to ride this wheel with that "new" board.  Short mosfet - bend... omg!

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

1 hour ago, evans036 said:

yeah, in my case the new driver board had been squished during transit such that all the mosfets had been push onto the pcb. one of the mosfets was not only bent but also pushed sideways which made it really difficult getting the heatsink holes to align.

first attempt at install caused a short between the mosfet and the heat sink (found the short via multi-meter). on the second attempt i managed to get everything lined up before tightening the heatsink/mosfet bolts and it seems fine now.

the temp sensor on the board also had to be epoxied because it had come loose due to bending of mosfet during shipping

the v12 seems to be running fine after riding 20miles

pic of driver board as delivered:

 

I expressed to Inmotion that precisely this problem would happen in shipment if they didn't supply them already attached to heatsinks like every other driver board they supply. Vindication is not a good feeling here, sorry that you're having to deal with this.

 

15 hours ago, Paul g said:

@Brendan "nog3" Halliday I would not be worried about that, InMotion was immediately informed about what happened. 

Ok, to be clear I want to know so I can identify if it happens to any of the 50 boards I'm replacing. Please, spill the beans.

[EUC Phenomenon]

2 hours ago, evans036 said:

yeah, in my case the new driver board had been squished during transit such that all the mosfets had been push onto the pcb. one of the mosfets was not only bent but also pushed sideways which made it really difficult getting the heatsink holes to align.

Did they put the board in to a box when they shipped it to you? Inmotion could at least used some foam to protect the Mosfets. And the Circuit Board Coating looks terrible.

[Steve Evans]

27 minutes ago, EUC Phenomenon said:

Did they put the board in to a box when they shipped it to you? Inmotion could at least used some foam to protect the Mosfets. And the Circuit Board Coating looks terrible.

no box. it was wrapped in bubble-wrap and inserted into an air cushioned envelope. nothing that would protect the mosfets from some other heavy package that might be on top of it

 

[Paradox]

3 minutes ago, evans036 said:

no box. it was wrapped in bubble-wrap and inserted into an air cushioned envelope. nothing that would protect the mosfets from some other heavy package that might be on top of it

Was this shipped by your distributor or InMotion direct?  Someone has to be accountable for this. 

[Brendan "nog3" Halliday]

14 minutes ago, Paradox said:

Was this shipped by your distributor or InMotion direct?  Someone has to be accountable for this. 

They're coming from inmotion wrapped in some bubble wrap, which is then inserted into an air cushion packet.

Like so:

This is barely adequate IMHO, since if it's put in a bag other parcels could crush the mosfets like seen above.

[Steve Evans]

4 minutes ago, Brendan "nog3" Halliday said:

They're coming from inmotion wrapped in some bubble wrap, which is then inserted into an air cushion packet.

Like so:

This is barely adequate IMHO, since if it's put in a bag other parcels could crush the mosfets like seen above.

yes, that was how mine was packaged also.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

What the hell is going on with Inmotion lately? Who in their right mind thinks this is ok? A delicate board, the only thing that keeps you from crashing, doesn't even get a cardboard box?!

[Cress]

This probably doesn't need to be said, but . . . . For the good of the cause I hope everyone, including Distributors installing the new board keep a record of MOSFET temperature because if the Hunteck component can't be cooled enough the new board will have an unpredictable service life.  The pictures, particularly the board posted by @evans036 , above, are concerning.

Electric Unicycles put 'beta testing' in a unique perspective.

[Richardo]

Someone make me an avatar of riding a roulette wheel. 

It would be a nice generic image to represent riding the average wheel from any manufacturer.