Why is everything EUC-related so darn expensive?

[Unventor]

9 minutes ago, supercurio said:

To come back to the topic of expensive by the way @bkw, one area where some beginners try to avoid the expenses is gear.

But then this can happen (not me).

Effective gear is not necessarily high-end expensive stuff, but absolutely necessary - and it's a bit more a requirement than for bike/ebike/e-scooter.

 

I think this is a very very good point. 

[KayakerChuck]

I have owned boats my entire life.

One "boat buck"= $1000.

EUC's, and the things around them, are not expensive.

 

 

[.....]

Take care of it and use it as much as you can. Tis the only way to balance out the cost in an equitable manner. These are too expensive for most of us to have spares laying around that we dont use A LOT! I try to ride VERY often, even if only a few minutes. It keeps me limber, it keeps the batteries doing something, and it helps remind me why I paid so much. It actually makes me feel like a chump, if I have a wheel sit for too long. Why pay to silently watch a lithium battery age to useless? Some of the ladies(and men) here are probably WELL aware of what happens to LI-ion toys that go unused for extended periods

Edited December 28, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[wheel-life]

thinking about this a little more, if you told me when i was a kid that i could feel like a superhero everyday floating above the ground for a one time payment of a couple grand, i wouldn't have believed it. i don't think our generations will ever get the Back To The Future hoverboards but this is a nice consolation prize!

[level9]

22 hours ago, bkw said:

BTW, I live in Manhattan. Started riding about a month ago with my KS16x. Already broke the trolly arm

Expensive is pretty relative. Live in Manhattan? Try owning a car.. with the parking and insurance costs alone.. you can buy a brand new high-end EUC every ~3 months - not even accounting for any car payment. EUCs sound insanely cheap to me considering what you get for the money in that kind of environment. If I still lived in NYC I'd have a huge EUC collection at this point! 

[GothamMike]

I fill my car tank approx 1X per week vs 2x. 40 dollars a week savings. 

Short trips around town I can do on my Sherman.

Less than 50 cents to charge my EUC.

[BKW]

2 hours ago, level9 said:

Expensive is pretty relative. Live in Manhattan? Try owning a car.. with the parking and insurance costs alone.. you can buy a brand new high-end EUC every ~3 months - not even accounting for any car payment. EUCs sound insanely cheap to me considering what you get for the money in that kind of environment. If I still lived in NYC I'd have a huge EUC collection at this point! 

Haha, yeah. You make a good point. I had two cars when I first moved to NYC. The hassle of moving them all the time for street sweepers, tickets, gas, insurance, trying to find parking, AND THE INEVITABLE cars bumping into your cars while parked eventually had me rid myself of both of them while living here. Both cars ended up getting hit and damaged while parked alongside curbs, and that was the last straw for me.

I have an electric scooter (I don't use), an ebike I use for deliveries, a one speed folding bike I don't use anymore, and now an EUC. I want to sell the one speed bike and the scooter because I don't use them and they are taking up space.

I hear gas is expensive nowadays?

[BKW]

Yes, sir! The comparison is laughable! These are good points for sure

[BKW]

19 hours ago, supercurio said:

To come back to the topic of expensive by the way @bkw, one area where some beginners try to avoid the expenses is gear.

But then this can happen (not me).

Effective gear is not necessarily high-end expensive stuff, but absolutely necessary - and it's a bit more a requirement than for bike/ebike/e-scooter.

 

I'm not the smartest person in the world, but thank goodness I'm not dumb enough to go without protective gear! I'm covered, sir! Can't stress this enough!

[.....]

3 hours ago, bkw said:

I'm not the smartest person in the world, but thank goodness I'm not dumb enough to go without protective gear! I'm covered, sir! Can't stress this enough!

I'm dumb enough Hell, Im even dumb enough to be able to ride geared or comfy and not be scared of 'what ifs'.

My daily driver cost me about $2k over 15 yrs ago. I've put about 300,000 miles on it. The last thing I fixed was a door handle for $15. So lets say I have around $4k in it because of tires and a new radiator.  It comes out at about .013 cents per mile. I also didnt have to buy any special clothing to use my car. So yes, euc's are expensive to purchase. Of course, operating costs differ, but so does my euc's ability to cross USA in winter with a passenger beside me, a plane in the backseat and a pair of euc's in the trunk. So yeah, if useability is in relation to value, euc's are expensive. However, my car isnt magic and the euc seems like it. Perhaps that skews the numbers drastically? You get more smiles per mile on an euc, but you can do things in the back seat of a car that keeps you smiling for hours.

Edited December 28, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[meepmeepmayer]

[Unventor]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

? 

[tenofnine]

I have the exact opposite opinion, I don't understand how EUCs are so cheap. Even if they were mass manufactured and everyone wanted one I'd say the prices are still very reasonable. The price of the power cells alone, actual reliable brand name Li-Ion cells is a massive chunk of the small profit margins.

 

I got my Tesla v1 for $1250
It can go 30+ mph and 35 real miles on a charge, essentially shrinking my entire city as a ultra portable way to locomote.
It can last me from 5-8 years (maybe more) without maintenance and only having to change tires (if I don't abuse and misuse it)

Some people spend $1250 yearly just on gas for their cars which also need regular maintenance on top of that. Have you ever bought a new car....you might think those are expensive too....and the add-ons and accessories. Might not want to look at any of that if you think EUCs are expensive, other modes of transport can be extremely overpriced by comparison.

I also bought an 18xl for $1899, is super comfy to ride and can go 70 miles a charge and will last even longer if I treat her right....insanely cheap IMO.

[conecones]

On 12/27/2021 at 12:06 PM, bkw said:

Hey guys, new here.

Why is everything EUC-related so expensive? And by 'expensive" I mean over-priced. The wheels are expensive, the parts are expensive, accessories like pads are expensive (over-priced), etc. Since when do plastic parts cost nearly 200 dollars? Or pedals cost nearly 300 dollars? Or cheap, thin, trolly arms cost 50 bucks? A charger, 100 dollars? On top of that, they want you to pay for shipping too

I say all this somewhat jokingly, but at the same time the prices are very high. Just want to get your guys' thoughts on this.

BTW, I live in Manhattan. Started riding about a month ago with my KS16x. Already broke the trolly arm

The good thing is EUC's on their own are well priced and that all the expensive accessories (upgraded pedals, printed pads, etc.) are all optional. A lot of people buy them as a way to customize their wheel rather than of out of necessity. Once accessorizing your wheel becomes a hobby then there is no such thing as "overpriced". As an example, google "custom mechanical keyboard" and you'll see how much some people are willing to pay to accessorize something we all use on a daily basis. How about a $80 USB cable to go with that $300 keyboard?

Most repair parts are actually not overpriced either and these costs can be avoided if you take care of your stuff. For example trolley handles for luggage bags are around $30. EUC boards are the only overpriced part IMO.

[Gaman]

Ebikes are even more expensive for the performance you get. Actually makes EUCs seem like the budget option.

[Planemo]

56 minutes ago, Gaman said:

Ebikes are even more expensive for the performance you get. Actually makes EUCs seem like the budget option.

I was about to agree with you, but in hindsight you're miles off the mark. For an instant I was going to agree based on cost Vs speed, but its far deeper than that. My Haibike was £4.5k and yes its restricted by EU law to 15.5mph but for the money you get a huge amount of R&D, some very nice suspension (front and rear), a bulletproof tried and trusted frame, brakes that will stop you repeatedly down the alps and above all a motor, controller, BMS, battery and charging system (all Bosch) which is light years ahead of anything found on ANY euc.

You are right in a way, from a performance aspect and looking purely at the restricted top speed it seems like a lot of money compared to an EUC, but when a Sherman costs £3k the extra £1.5k for the ebike pales into insignificance when I can dongle it for 150 quid and get 40mph (I havent cos I dont need to), I dont need to worry about getting it covered in rain and shit nor does it even enter my head that the battery will self combust, the BMS will fail nor in fact that I can leave it on the charger for as long as I want because I am 110% confident in the charging system. Oh and even without a dongle it will take me far quicker down a black run at Morzine than any rider on any euc (thats a challenge btw )

And the rims wont fail me if I so much as look at dropping off 5 feet, and I will bet a lot of money that aside from maybe battery depletion, the bike itself will be good for 10 years minimum with basic maintenance.

So the upshot of that is that IMO you get a shit lot more for your money with a decent ebike than an euc.

I still love and ride my Sherman btw.

[Gaman]

Your ebike seems to only have 500Wh of battery life? It's easy to spend on those other things when you don't have to give up so much profit margin to just buying battery cells. Add to that the huge manufacturing capacity and long history of the bicycle industry, then EUCs even competing with the cost is a marvel of globalization. A v11 for example will have 3x the motor power and 2x the battery capacity of any similarly priced ebike, and sure it's trading those pros with a con of manufacturing quality but I doubt it's light years ahead. EUCs are also just physically limited in space for large suspension mechanisms.

[Planemo]

27 minutes ago, Gaman said:

Your ebike seems to only have 500Wh of battery life?

Its actually 625Wh but yes I totally get your point. A Sherman has a huge amount of cells and each one of those costs money.

27 minutes ago, Gaman said:

and sure it's trading those pros with a con of manufacturing quality but I doubt it's light years ahead.

I disagree on this point. The Bosch powertrain and more specifically cell management is way, way ahead of anything relative to EUC, except perhaps Ninebot but they dont really count now for EUC. The fact that there is a fault code on high end ebikes for just about anything and everything, and that its logged within the system suggests that its monitoring a helluva lot more data than just a total failure scenario. I appreciate that KS and Inmotion are doing a little bit more than most eucs these days, but dont kid yourself that they are even close to Bosch ebikes.

27 minutes ago, Gaman said:

EUCs are also just physically limited in space for large suspension mechanisms.

Agreed, but irrelevant to the point. The bottom line is that you get a shed load more proven, tested  reliable hardware on an ebike. And I dont count motor wattage because a 2500w hub drive motor costs bugger all in the grand scheme of things (as used on lower end road orientated ebikes).

The only real cost that I agree with you on (skin in the game if you like) is cells. Ebikes have a lot less for sure, but theres a huge amount going on with ebikes (relative to eucs) than just the difference in number of cells and IMO this is what makes the cost justifiable compared to EUC's with their crappy plastics, a generic no name direct drive motor, a (one) shitty cheap tyre, no brakes, no physical drivetrain system, no suspension (£1K alone on the ebike) and a whole host of other components that all cost money on an ebike.

Of course you are free to disagree, but given that I own both, thats my take on it

 

[Tawpie]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

The bottom line is that you get a shed load more proven, tested  reliable hardware on an ebike.

You *can* get more proven, tested and reliable hardware on an ebike, but like most things you do get what you pay for. There are a ton of cheap ebikes with no-name motors and who knows who made it out of what batteries on the market... and Bosch hardware ain't found on sub $3k offerings (well, maybe their bottom of the line offerings but not the mid drives). Perhaps the one thing I can say is that ebike batteries are better packaged (skinned?) "for their intended use case" but I can't vouch for their BMS or cell choice or nickel strips and ours came with a Wuxi Dpower Electronic Co. Ltd. charger. It says it's for Li-ion but the app doesn't show the charge cycle so who knows what's really going on.

Don't forget that there's a markup for brand—we hope that brand protection means the brand owner pays attention to quality and reliability but we all know there are limits. I believe Veteran is making a fair bit of extra money based on the LeaperKim brand—and they should... it's turned out to be a reliable performer.

I think we're paying premium prices right now because of novelty (relatively small supply), a small but growing market (potentially lucrative), and expensive components that are in high demand for other uses. If manufacturers can hold their price points, they will. Until competition changes the landscape. This is how the game is played.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Tawpie

[Murdomeek]

Half my coworkers have $8k road bikes.  And those don't even have high tech motors, battery, and controllers

 

Different budgets for different people.  

 

Sherman and most big battery EUCs are pretty reasonably priced if you compare it to an ebike that has 3200wh that can go 70kph+

Or compare to electric skateboards that are $1800 with only 600wh batteries

Or $1800+ onewheels with worse specs than a mten3 

Or $4k high end 2000wh electric standup scooters

 

Suspension EUCs are more expensive because they're new tech. But most the tried and true euc models are very reasonably priced for the specs. 

 

[Planemo]

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

There are a ton of cheap ebikes with no-name motors and who knows who made it out of what batteries on the market... and Bosch hardware ain't found on sub $3k offerings

Yep, but I wasnt comparing an ebike of that spec.

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Perhaps the one thing I can say is that ebike batteries are better packaged (skinned?)

Err yes you could say that. The Bosch Powertube is absolutely rock solid and very well sealed. Fully encased and its not even used as a stressed member. Seriously, I suspect you could drive a car over it.

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

"for their intended use case" but I can't vouch for their BMS or cell choice or nickel strips and ours came with a Wuxi Dpower Electronic Co. Ltd. charger.

Agreed, but as I said I wasnt using an ebike example that is fitted with shitty no name cells/BMS/charger.

7 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I think we're paying premium prices right now

Which is my point. I agree they will likely come down, but I maintain that at the moment you get a lot more for your money when looking at ebikes in the 4 to 5k range.

[Planemo]

6 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

Half my coworkers have $8k road bikes.  And those don't even have high tech motors, battery, and controllers

Wasn't comparing a high end non electric road bike

6 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

Sherman and most big battery EUCs are pretty reasonably priced if you compare it to an ebike that has 3200wh that can go 70kph+

An ebike with 3200wh would also have a hell of a lot more hardware to go with it though. It would basically be a Sur Ron or in other words an electric motorbike.

 

[alcatraz]

Very few things are consumables, apart from tires. To make money off one-off items they need to be expensive I guess.

The good news is to the people entering the market with their own products. They can easier undercut the prices.

As long as there are 4 big chinese brands competing, it will keep prices in check. Now if only countries didn't have so mucb red tape and costs involved for importing these things, or if shipping wasn't so expensive, it would be even cheaper.

Me and my wife have two V8s, a Tesla and an MSX and I paid 8000CNY for all four (2nd hand). That's like 1200usd. The stuff is very cheap in China. When it leaves China it becomes very expensive.

[Andrei_est]

Hello everyone !!! I am from Estonia, this is Europe))) Here, too, the prices are too high, but I managed to get Sherman v2 for 2500 eur. I’m not sorry for the feeling of flight and freedom !! There are no analogues anymore !!!!!  you understand this only after 500 km ... now I have 5000, we have winter -10 and still manage to drive 30 km))))

[LanghamP]

On 12/27/2021 at 2:34 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

You are absolutely right. Given for what you get for the money (e.g. compare to a motor scooter), EUCs are definitely overpriced. The manufacturers still aren't swimming in money, though. Maybe calling EUCs a boutique industry is correct.

A big reason, perhaps the biggest, I went to motorized eScooters was the cost. EUCs are ridiculously expensive and that's somewhat reflected in the older affluent clientele, while motor scooters/eScooters are both very cheap and with a very VERY young audience. eBikes are somewhere in-between in price and rider age.

Interestingly, while EUC manufacturers don't publish sales, eScooters do. And those figures are always in the tens of thousands for the enthusiast powerful models, and hundreds of thousands for the commuter (cheaper) models.

I personally think eScooters are more fun than EUCs just because you are less likely to faceplant (although last year I went over the handlebars and destroy my front wheel when I foolishly took my dog on a leash on a bicycle ride), and having suffered perhaps a dozen minor EUC faceplants over the years, one gets to be wary of EUC reliability.