Inmotion V13 Speculation

[onizukagto]

1 hour ago, 360rumors said:

 

Wow. 56mph. That's bloody fast. Lol

[techyiam]

This high speed run video posted by Johnny Go Vroom was achieved very differently than how Kuji Rolls did it. 

Johnny was using stock pads, but his knees or upper parts of his lower legs weren't pressing on the front top pads. His legs were kind of bow legged. So he wasn't  gripping the top part of the wheel to torqued the wheel forward to help accelerate. However, his upper body above the waist was bent over, and his toes were off the front the pedal. His heels were not touching the pedals. Perhaps he was gripping the side of the wheels with the inner side of his shoes, and the pedals were statically tilted forward by a few degrees? And he is a really heavy guy?

On the other hand, Kuji Rolls had custom pads where his feet were locked in, and he was leaned way forward with his legs pressing down on the front pads.

The other thing is the large U-turn radius at the end of the video. My guess is that he just need to practice that more.

[yoos]

On 12/13/2022 at 8:49 AM, UPONIT said:

When people mention battery capacity being an issue at high speeds because of sag, I wonder if that also applies to long hill climbing?

Sag is caused by high current, high current is required by high power (not the nominal power but the actual power currently drawn). High power is required to overcome wind drag or gravity drag (going uphill) [or more exotic resistance sources: mud, deep water, obstacles in you wheel shell, bad bearings, torrential rain etc]. Thus going uphill can cause drag (and hence sag) comparable to going fast. To estimate how much energy you need to climb hills I will use basic school physics: If you weigh 100kg (including EUC and gear) and climb an elevation of 100m you gain the potential energy E = mgh = 100kg 10m/s² 100m = 10⁵J = 28Wh. That's really not that much. Apparently the tallest hill in SF is Mt Davidson at 283m, requiring around 80Wh by the same calculation. That really is very little by modern battery standards so you don't need to worry about your battery capacity.

However you need to worry about torque and power. The gravity drag is equal to your weight (including EUC and gear) times sin(a) where a is the elevation angle. To be able to overcome it you need sufficient torque. Torque is highest at zero speed. To be able to climb a hill at all, you need to have peak pull force higher than gravity drag. The pull force has been measured by @RagingGrandpa here: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/28025-💪-euc-pull-force-test-results-reviewers-please-do-this/

As an exercise, the steepest hills in SF according to google are 31.5%. That means sin(a) = sin(arctan(0.315))= 0.3. So the max weight that the V11 pull force should be able to carry is 141lbs / 0.3 = 470 lbs. Subtracting the V11 weight we get about 400lbs geared rider weight. However, ridership evidence suggests that the V11 is not sufficiently strong to handle SF. This shows that the pull force measurements are not particularly useful to make precise predictions . 

Still, to handle steep climbs, torque is more important than nominal power. An HT version of an EUC will do better than a HS.

Edited December 14, 2022 by yoos
typos,clarity

[Punxatawneyjoe]

10 hours ago, Robse said:

change the speed limits on KingSong or Inmotion wheels

I was thinking more down the lines of the v11 where it's set from the factory at 31mph and you can "unlock" it by putting it in fancier mode to do 34mph. I myself am not interested in even going the 55mph that it does from the factory, it was just a rhetorical question. Where i live you would have to hit the highway to even use the 55mph limit and you would last about 5 minutes before a state trooper would pull you over.

[mlau]

26 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

I was thinking more down the lines of the v11 where it's set from the factory at 31mph and you can "unlock" it by putting it in fancier mode to do 34mph. I myself am not interested in even going the 55mph that it does from the factory, it was just a rhetorical question. Where i live you would have to hit the highway to even use the 55mph limit and you would last about 5 minutes before a state trooper would pull you over.

The 90kmh/56mph limit seems artificial, i.e. enforced by firmware (not hardware limits), maybe in time after extensive beta-testing by buyers inmotion will release a newer firmware with a raised limit

Edited December 14, 2022 by mlau

[yoos]

36 minutes ago, mlau said:

The 90kmh/56mph limit seems artificial, i.e. enforced by firmware (not hardware limits), maybe in time after extensive beta-testing by buyers inmotion will release a newer firmware with a raised limit

And this is actually how things should indeed be done in a serious mass transportation device! We don't need NASA-moon-project levels of safety, reliability and redundancy, however, crashes at 90kmh are too dangerous (both literally and reputation/marketing-wise) to allow them to happen. Let the V13 first establish itself as a safe, well-built and reliable wheel within its current, software-imposed limits and then, perhaps, a "ludicrous mode" with slightly tighter safety margins will be enabled for experienced riders, once enough user data (which can be logged automatically) has been accrued.

[techyiam]

9 hours ago, yoos said:

once enough user data (which can be logged automatically) has been accrued.

+1

Aerodynamic drag force increases with the square of speed. At 90+ km/h speeds, there just aren't data to formulate a rule of thumb to say the top speed is simply the free spin speed minus 10 mph. The impact due to potholes is at another level here. How about emergency braking at these speeds?

There are videos of riders riding the beeps and then brake, and the wheel promptly cutted out. And the rider wasn't even braking hard, nor going over bumps at the same time.

Edited December 14, 2022 by techyiam

[jimjam.nyc]

I don't think inmotion will reduce the safety margin to unlock an extra 5-10 mph. At least i hope they don't.  The battery on this wheel just doesnt make sense for those speeds. Just because the top lift speed of the wheel is so high in a lab situation.. Doesn't mean the safety margin is infinite in real world situations at varying battery levels. 

Just my 2 cents on the whole we need more speed thing.. I think for now 60mph is probably enough..

Besides we need a reason for begode to release a few more wheels next week. The entertainment value of watching people who just spent 3k+ scramble and spend another 3k+ every single week is endless. ;-)

 

 

 

[yoos]

13 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

The battery on this wheel just doesnt make sense for those speeds. Just because the top lift speed of the wheel is so high in a lab situation.. Doesn't mean the safety margin is infinite in real world situations at varying battery levels. 

It's a low hanging achievement fruit: At the moment (until some Monster Master Pro Plus comes out) the V13 might have a chance at winning races if the speed limit is lifted -- just unlock it for a few pro racers (i.e. unlock on a very individual case basis). On the other hand, I have no idea whether the apple valley track and other typical tracks used for EUC races have long enough straight stretches to allow reaching 90+kmh in a useful way.

[Rawnei]

41 minutes ago, yoos said:

It's a low hanging achievement fruit: At the moment (until some Monster Master Pro Plus comes out) the V13 might have a chance at winning races if the speed limit is lifted -- just unlock it for a few pro racers (i.e. unlock on a very individual case basis). On the other hand, I have no idea whether the apple valley track and other typical tracks used for EUC races have long enough straight stretches to allow reaching 90+kmh in a useful way.

From what I've seen races usually don't have long enough straights to get up to those kind of speeds, I'm guessing acceleration is more important there. 😁

[jimjam.nyc]

38 minutes ago, yoos said:

It's a low hanging achievement fruit: At the moment (until some Monster Master Pro Plus comes out) the V13 might have a chance at winning races if the speed limit is lifted -- just unlock it for a few pro racers (i.e. unlock on a very individual case basis). On the other hand, I have no idea whether the apple valley track and other typical tracks used for EUC races have long enough straight stretches to allow reaching 90+kmh in a useful way.

I get it for racing purposes.. but even then the next begode wheel will be available for the next race. It is all the people who race talk about, is the next performance wheel, etc. I just am not sure inmotion is REALLY trying so hard to capture that market. Besides a few back and forth funny exchanges between them and zen lee, i have not got the impression this is a race wheel.

I dont know who this wheel is really for, maybe those people would want an extra 5mph at the cost of even more range/safety, but i have to believe those people are buying the master pro anyways. It would make more sense, considering safety is not the number 1 thing on their list. 

 

[techyiam]

For racing at AVS, I am not hearing Zen Lee asking for 22" racing wheels. Currently, he seemd to be excited about the Commander Pro. 

Other than a few Youtubers wanting to show that they are the first to break the 100 km/h barrier, I really haven't heard anyone saying they could actually use a 90+ km/h wheel. 

The closest I have seen is Alex in Dubai wanting to keep up with a Sur Ron.

But in Canada, Sur Ron's are regulated by the Feds, and are not legal unless it complies with the Canadian Motor Vehicle Saftey Standards for motorcycles.

In other words, Sur Ron's are not classified in Canada as PEV'S by the Feds.

There are plenty of trucks, cars, and motorcycles that have a higher top speed than electric wheels, who cares.

I think we need to see first how the newly released fast wheels are used, and how well they sold before planning to make faster ones.

Maybe they need a faster racing wheel, but I don't think they are asking for 110+ lbs ones though.

Edited December 14, 2022 by techyiam

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

I am not hearing Zen Lee asking for 22" racing wheels.

Definitely not - way too slow off the mark, and as you say, usually not enough straights to get up to usably superior speeds

[Paul A]

Could maybe use Silverstone.

[mlau]

50 minutes ago, techyiam said:

For racing at AVS, I am not hearing Zen Lee asking for 22" racing wheels. Currently, he seemd to be excited about the Commander Pro. 

I sincerely hope the euc makers do not base their product lineup decisions on the ramblings of random people on youtube.

50 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I really haven't heard anyone saying they could actually use a 90+ km/h wheel.

speed is fun. (crashes are not, and with the price of the V13, I don't really want to crash it, but I will be trying to go as fast as it can as often as conditions allow).

[techyiam]

7 minutes ago, mlau said:

I sincerely hope the euc makers do not base their product lineup decisions on the ramblings of random people on youtube.

Begode did provide prizes at AVS. And the Master was the most popular wheel this year. So Begode has some interest. Zen Lee just seem to be the one who is more vocal among the the racers in the racing crowd. Doubtful Begode or any manufacturer would only rely on one or two people for product development directions. 

16 minutes ago, mlau said:

but I will be trying to go as fast as it can as often as conditions allow).

Do you actually have roads that you can go 90+ km/h? If I want to go 90+ km/h, I could actually do so in bursts on a highway near me for thrills. Or go in the bike lane on the highway to Whistler. But those are not real needs. 75 km/h is already a good enough speed to go on main roads with traffic. But headroom is nice I am more concerned with emergency braking.

[Freeforester]

The Master is relatively/reasonably light in weight for its 134v of universally acknowledged powerful acceleration abilities, and I guess that for a racing wheel your requirements are that it has enough in the tank to go round the race at max speed possible (- with or without suspension, though I think the former is probably a help overall), and with enough headroom to max it safely right to the finish line without fear of a cutout owing to battery drain; I’m not a battery geek much less a racer, so I don’t even know whether it might even be possible to configure less batteries in such a specific-use way, but it may be that a high discharge battery of lower overall capacity might provide the necessary oomph.    The F1 Williams racing team took this approach to the limit (and beyond, tragically) in their GP cars.    I’m not sure whether there are any major flaws inherent with the Master as a racing wheel, but of course all and any of the other relatively light 134v wheels are going to be scrutinised for their potential suitability, though I don’t see this being the case with the heavier/larger capacity Begode offerings, or the V13.

YMMV - that’s just my take on it as a (frankly) disinterested spectator.

[mlau]

58 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Do you actually have roads that you can go 90+ km/h? If I want to go 90+ km/h, I could actually do so in bursts on a highway near me for thrills. Or go in the bike lane on the highway to Whistler. But those are not real needs. 75 km/h is already a good enough speed to go on main roads with traffic. But headroom is nice I am more concerned with emergency braking.

It's nice to know I can go this fast.   As to emergency braking: I hope I will never have to "emergency brake" the thing,  but that's why I wrote "as conditions allow". Most of the time, they don't allow it.  Hikers, bikers and motorists generally are unpredictable blind deaf morons, but at least some of the roads here are pretty decent and allow me to ride the V12 up to 65kmh for a short time of nothing else prevents it.  And now I want to go 90kmh on these roads. And if Inmotion will enable 100kmh one day, I will go 100kmh.  Because I like the thrill.  My wife will kill me if she finds out, but whatever.

[techyiam]

4 hours ago, mlau said:

the roads here are pretty decent and allow me to ride the V12 up to 65kmh for a short time of nothing else prevents it.  And now I want to go 90kmh on these roads. And if Inmotion will enable 100kmh one day, I will go 100kmh.  Because I like the thrill. 

On 1250cc torque laden motorcycle, I can easily go up to 100 km/h and come back down in speed.

On a V13, that distance isn't going to be short. One vehicle accidents and more than one vehicle accidents are completely different animals. I hope your roads are odd enough to let you do it safely, aside from cutting out.

There is no way I can go 90+ km/h on city streets around here safely regardless the time of day. I will have to exceed one city block, and there is no way I can control what awaits me in the intersections. Sure, most of the time the streets can be desolated at certain time of night. But there is always somebody who will pop up unexpectedly eventually. 

[HEC]

21 hours ago, Robse said:

I don't know of anyone who has ever been able to change the speed limits on KingSong or Inmotion wheels

Actually, way back with V8 there was an unofficial utility to squeeze extra 10% of speed out of it, but as it was literally exhausting all safety margins, it was hardly worth the extra 3 km/h gain ...

[HEC]

17 hours ago, UPONIT said:

TBH, I've only paid attention to current draw sporadically. EUCs  always have to balance, which requires current. Since the amount of regen (even on my moped, where the motor does zero work downhill) is so tiny, it makes sense that it would still use more than it could regen on a downhill run. But you are right, I should get actual numbers for it...

The balancing itself takes very little current / power. You can see that when wheel is powered on but standing (like when waiting on crossings and so on). In my own experience over numerous years and wheels the downhill ride definitely returns mire power to battery than it's used for actual balancing. 

[Robse]

5 hours ago, mlau said:

It's nice to know I can go this fast.   As to emergency braking: I hope I will never have to "emergency brake" the thing,  but that's why I wrote "as conditions allow". Most of the time, they don't allow it.  Hikers, bikers and motorists generally are unpredictable blind deaf morons, but at least some of the roads here are pretty decent and allow me to ride the V12 up to 65kmh for a short time of nothing else prevents it.  And now I want to go 90kmh on these roads. And if Inmotion will enable 100kmh one day, I will go 100kmh.  Because I like the thrill.  My wife will kill me if she finds out, but whatever.

this made me laugh and made this slightly sarcastic comment necessary, but since it's so obvious, beware of the humor;  your better half doesn't have to kill you, it's going to happen all by itself

[mlau]

9 hours ago, Robse said:

this made me laugh and made this slightly sarcastic comment necessary, but since it's so obvious, beware of the humor;  your better half doesn't have to kill you, it's going to happen all by itself

no better way to die than while doing what/who you love

[rebeuc]

This wasn't exactly the point of this video, but look at how easy it will be to replace parts like the trolley handle, battery packs, and pedals on this thing!

 

[rebeuc]

Somehow I had missed this video: