Inmotion V13 Speculation

[UPONIT]

On 12/28/2022 at 5:59 PM, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Yeah, he seems partial to his master tank. It will be interesting to see him ride it though since he's used to riding tanks. We will see. I have to be honest i'm not loving the feedback of this pre-ordered wheel.

His review seemed pretty positive to me overall, considering it's just a first impression video. He pre-hates the suspension because of its similarity to the V11, but that's a personal preference/needs/usage type of decision. He says at at several points that it exceeds the MP in some areas. Don't let buyer's remorse get ya before the V13  has a chance to win you over IRL

4 hours ago, BKW said:

Who knows, but for me I personally think a lot of it is the battery. If the battery was larger then it'd be a better choice for this specific wheel. HOWEVER, the safety is unprecedented in this wheel, so I think it depends on who the person who wants to buy it wants.

4 hours ago, Wraith Rider said:

Well said.  Battery size is going to be different for everyone because there are so many factors that affect how many miles you can get from it.  For me I'm 185 fully geared, cruise between 30 and 40mph and can't do more than 60mi on a given day due to my knees.  I'm too old to be trying to set distance records.  I use the wheel to enjoy time outside.  ... I just appreciate the attention to detail and build quality Inmotion is doing.  I just feel like $5000 for a V13 is a much better buy than a $4500 MP with some more batteries.  I'll take quality all day every day over quantity.  

Well said. This size battery seems to be in keeping with InMotion's design preference. What battery size would this wheel need to have, for it to not be an issue?

I like what Marty said on his range test post: even at 7% battery, with no tiltbacks or beeps, he could still ride at 25 mph.  I'm with Wraith: ~60 miles at ~30mph seems like plenty for my needs (and knees).

Riding a two- or one-wheeled vehicle at more than 40mph for any length of time is just too much howling wind/too little scenery and relaxation for me. All that reserve power is there as overhead for the steeper hills, or cutting loose on the occasional smooth, straight track.

Safety, stability, comfort, removable/easily adjustable suspension, easily changeable tire, excellent build quality, etc. matter a lot.

[Tawpie]

Something that hasn't been talked about much is the orange frame with all its slots and threaded holes. I think that's perhaps the most brilliant thing they're bringing to the table. People like to add stuff, I'm McGyvering away to mount a bell and a water bottle/toolkit holder to my S22 (not really happy with my efforts either). Looking at Challenger, I'm really envious. You'll be able to route wires for lights, tie stuff on if you need to, and bolt the heavy/structural stuff on easy peasy. There will be some really neat third party stuff that you won't give a second thought to adding, it'll be so easy.

[UPONIT]

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

Something that hasn't been talked about much is the orange frame with all its slots and threaded holes. I think that's perhaps the most brilliant thing they're bringing to the table. People like to add stuff, I'm McGyvering away to mount a bell and a water bottle/toolkit holder to my S22 (not really happy with my efforts either). Looking at Challenger, I'm really envious. You'll be able to route wires for lights, tie stuff on if you need to, and bolt the heavy/structural stuff on easy peasy. There will be some really neat third party stuff that you won't give a second thought to adding, it'll be so easy.

Yes! And that orange looks better in person. At least on my monitor, the Russian language review on YouTube has the most accurate color grading. Rich red-orange and the rest dark, not gray like it looks because of lighting in most videos.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by UPONIT
bc

[mrelwood]

 

8 hours ago, Wraith Rider said:

The air suspension wins for reliability against all others but it fails on real dampen settings.

It really doesn’t. Cheap air shocks (Master and V11) have an ashamingly large failure rate, as many of them simply don’t hold air for very long. If you mean a complete suspension design of S22 vs others, the main difference is not air vs spring but in the slider design. You can make a fork shock with either air or spring (V11 / ShermS), just like you can make an MTB shock with either (Begode / S22).

And both air and spring shocks use similar dampers, so I don’t think you are pointing at the correct feature for the reliability or adjustment differences.

7 hours ago, Wraith Rider said:

I do prefer the way IM designs their wheels with weight balance and ergonomics in mind.  To me all the other wheels look the same with the exception to all the KS concept designs but poor adaptation to have it work properly with reliability.

I agree completely! But this is the hard part to get into BG fans’ heads, since they are so used to only comparing max speed, power, and battery capacity from the spec sheets. Anything beyond that is irrelevant since comfort and ride experience can’t be reordered by a numeric value. I lost interest in all other manufacturers pretty soon after getting my 1st batch V11.

 

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

For me, the jury is still out regarding accessible top speed on the V13. Other than Kuji Rolls, I am not seeing proof of 90 km/h top speed.

I don’t get you guys. Kuji finally has the guts to show that 90km/h is accessible, yet you think that it was only because of his pads or something? What would convince you?

It’s an absolutely lunatic speed to ride at, and it definitely won’t be a speed that people should even try to reach. It does require an isolated strip of a decent quality tarmac, but that has nothing to do with the V13. It’s about riding 90km/h on a freakin’ unicycle. All 80+ km/h speed runs I’ve seen have been with custom pads on empty roads. No EUC will ever be feasible for those speeds in traffic.

6 hours ago, techyiam said:

Magnesium alloy use in structural parts in an electric wheel is impressive since they managed to keep price at bay

I’m not so sure about the price being kept at bay though… It’s a very expensive wheel, making a very expensive suspension when compared to the SherMax.

 

6 hours ago, Tawpie said:

at 118 lbs I would have expected more range than 30-70 miles.

Have you ever ridden with a heavier person than you on the same wheel model? Even just a 10kg weight difference is clearly quite taxing to the range.

 

5 hours ago, Wraith Rider said:

Who makes upgraded air shocks for the V11?  Nobody.  Thats because they either work or if they break they are just replaced.  They may not be the most adjustable dampening but they are the most reliable.

They definitely are not the most reliable! The shocks not holding air when new or after 1000 km is a rather common issue. Replacements are not available because manufacturing an actual air shock to specific measurements is hugely more complex than bolting shower door rollers on a straight piece of metal. Original replacements cost 80€ a piece, custom made shocks would cost several hundreds, per side.

 To be fair, no-one makes upgradable  shocks for other EUCs either. They have just been smart enough to use standard MTB shocks.

The V11 doesn’t fit standard shocks, but there is a stock available at Ali for 20€ that almost fits. I decided to modify them to fit my V11, but it’s much more work than it’s worth. Having to grind the piston to a smaller diameter for one.

[Forwardnbak]

My suspension is always leaking on the V11 now. I hope the V13 holds a little better. 

i was hitting some larger drops recently on the V11 and it felt pretty rough on larger stuff. 

[techyiam]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It’s an absolutely lunatic speed to ride at, and it definitely won’t be a speed that people should even try to reach. It does require an isolated strip of a decent quality tarmac, but that has nothing to do with the V13. It’s about riding 90km/h on a freakin’ unicycle. All 80+ km/h speed runs I’ve seen have been with custom pads on empty roads. No EUC will ever be feasible for those speeds in traffic.

I was responding to @Wraith Rider , pointing out that it is still too early to say V13's top speed is really an edge over the Sherman-S's. 

Wrongway claimed he exceeded 90 km/h on a Master Pro. The road that he was on has a very wide bike lane. He could have ridden on the road or the bike lane. Speed limit on that road is 80 km/h.

Time-stamped. 

 

[Clem604]

53 minutes ago, techyiam said:

The road that he was on has a very wide bike lane. He could have ridden on the road or the bike lane. Speed limit on that road is 80 km/h.

Yeah that highway after UBC is only one of a few places I could see people try a top speed run and maybe some industrial areas in Richmond. That guy certainly has bigger balls than me. Also its interesting in the thumbnail for that video,  it looks like Adam is riding in the middle lane on the Granville St Bridge which is something I probably wouldn't do.

[techyiam]

2 minutes ago, Clem604 said:

it looks like Adam is riding in the middle lane on the Granville St Bridge which is something I probably wouldn't do.

+1

I saw that too. Southbound on Granville Bridge. Some cars race across there.

I don't know what enforcement is like in that part of town. Personally, I have never crossed a major bridge with car traffic.

I have to say the highway by UBC has to be one of the safest roads / bike lanes to go 80+ km/h. There are plenty of opportunities to ride there with low traffic outside of rush hours.

I think another road would Marine Drive in Burnaby, easy of Boundary Road. There is a short 80 km/h section of highway there. It is not great, but doable. 

[Clem604]

13 minutes ago, techyiam said:

+1

I saw that too. Southbound on Granville Bridge. Some cars race across there.

I don't know what enforcement is like in that part of town. Personally, I have never crossed a major bridge with car traffic.

I have to say the highway by UBC has to be one of the safest roads / bike lanes to go 80+ km/h. There are plenty of opportunities to ride there with low traffic outside of rush hours.

I think another road would Marine Drive in Burnaby, easy of Boundary Road. There is a short 80 km/h section of highway there. It is not great, but doable. 

Yeah I wouldn't ride across the bridges on the main road as you can cross many other ways that doesn't involve being on the road with traffic.

Maybe we should organize a meet @UBC highway to do some top speed runs when the weather gets better.

[Wraith Rider]

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It really doesn’t. Cheap air shocks (Master and V11) have an ashamingly large failure rate, as many of them simply don’t hold air for very long. If you mean a complete suspension design of S22 vs others, the main difference is not air vs spring but in the slider design. You can make a fork shock with either air or spring (V11 / ShermS), just like you can make an MTB shock with either (Begode / S22).

And both air and spring shocks use similar dampers, so I don’t think you are pointing at the correct feature for the reliability or adjustment differences.

I wasn't talking about the actual shock.  Its the mechanism that holds the shock that was poorly designed.  The actual shock that begode threw on each of the wheels were also the wrong size hence why people were trying to redesign the angle and length and just trying to replace the shock all together.  

8 hours ago, mrelwood said:

They definitely are not the most reliable! The shocks not holding air when new or after 1000 km is a rather common issue. Replacements are not available because manufacturing an actual air shock to specific measurements is hugely more complex than bolting shower door rollers on a straight piece of metal. Original replacements cost 80€ a piece, custom made shocks would cost several hundreds, per side.

 To be fair, no-one makes upgradable  shocks for other EUCs either. They have just been smart enough to use standard MTB shocks.

The V11 doesn’t fit standard shocks, but there is a stock available at Ali for 20€ that almost fits. I decided to modify them to fit my V11, but it’s much more work than it’s worth. Having to grind the piston to a smaller diameter for one.

All shocks eventually fail.  At the moment they don't make a shock that is small enough and able to handle the forces on a EUC and a rider and the miriad of weight differences.  You are right about it being a custom shock so yes inevitably they would be extremely hard to reproduce so hence the higher price.  Thats not always the case for 3rd party depending how easy it is to make.  An MTB shock will go bad just like an Inmotion air shock similar to the ones that hold up the tailgate on your car.  An MTB will be more expensive to replace in comparison because it much more complicated with the seals gaskets and adjustment parts.  Its cheaper to replace the inmotion shocks than it is to replace the Begode shock even being custom designed for the V11. Not to even mention if it will even work with their factory arm design along with it.  In essence the Inmotion is cheaper and a lot less headache to replace and integrate.  Of course I would love to see Inmotion build their own type of MTB style fork shock like the one that was implemented in the Sherman S.  

[Wraith Rider]

6 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

My suspension is always leaking on the V11 now. I hope the V13 holds a little better. 

i was hitting some larger drops recently on the V11 and it felt pretty rough on larger stuff. 

I'm not sure if there are any difference in the design of the V13 shocks but at least they did put 2 to a side to add rebound adjustment for the added weight.  As much as we would proabably all love the cool fork mtb style shocks like the sherman S, the plus side is the V13 shocks will be far cheaper and easier to install than the Sherman S.  I did see one downside from Wrong Ways video on the new Shermans S shock on the broken slider cap at the bottom.  Also being custom designed from a 3rd party those won't be cheap to replace and also since its not from a high end name brand, your not getting the same quality from every part on the shock.   From your videos, I think you have gotten plenty of life for all the riding and terrain you took your V11 on.  Time for a little love for your V11 and put some shiny new shocks on it . I actually should probably do the same for mine.  

[Forwardnbak]

1 hour ago, Wraith Rider said:

 Time for a little love for your V11 and put some shiny new shocks on it . I actually should probably do the same for mine.  

Yep! New year plan is to get some time off the V11 and care for it. I’d like to take the time to learn more about strip downs and the back end. Need to be able to increase my tech knowledge some and would love to repair/mod things myself.

A bit more time now so more energy trying to keep the channel alive  I still enjoy it.  

V13 looks and has hyped me again

Happy NY 

[Tawpie]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Have you ever ridden with a heavier person than you on the same wheel model? Even just a 10kg weight difference is clearly quite taxing to the range.

Everyone I have ever ridden with is at least 10 kg heavier than I  (but I tend to ride alone for the most part)

And I agree and don't think when we're comparing range that we give sufficient consideration (weight) to the total payload. For a non-self-balancing vehicle, weight matters getting it up to speed but to maintain speed it's less of a factor (rolling resistance aside) so conventional thinking doesn't expect that a 118 lb load cruising along would take much more energy than an 80 lb one would. I'm coming to the conclusion that a reason payload is so range costly is that self-balancing wheels require constant acceleration/deceleration corrections to keep the rider upright and that burns power. Add more weight, the wheel has to do those micro accelerations with more authority.

I wonder how much effect lowering the center of mass would have on range... if there's a measurable difference when the pedals are at their highest and lowest, or if the wheel mass was lower to the ground. Is part of the reason Challenger seems range challenged because it's tall and the loaded center of mass is further above the axel?

[Paul A]

Interesting hypotheses.

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

if there's a measurable difference when the pedals are at their highest and lowest

Effect of this variable seems to be easily testable. 

Conduct a range test with highest pedal position.

Repeat range test with lowest pedal position.

 

 

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Add more weight, the wheel has to do those micro accelerations with more authority.

Effect of heavier wheel, greater inertia, greater acceleration/deceleration forces required to maintain balance.

Would it be possible to test in a different manner?

 

A rider and EUC, braking/accelerating on a treadmill/dynamometer.

A rider and EUC, braking/accelerating on road.

 

Would there be a difference in forces between riding EUC on a dynamometer vs road? 

Is momentum force of rider weight accelerating/braking on the treadmill/dynamometer effectively eliminated?

Could this test be a proxy for lighter/heavier EUC wheel weight?

 

[Eyss]

Somebody has a street tire on their V13

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/5757933397637909/?sfnsn=mo&ref=share&mibextid=KtfwRi

 

Seems like 80/90 16 tire would fit but you don't have a lot of options. 

They mentioned that a 90/80 16 probably wouldn't fit. 

Seems like a silly decision to go with a 16" rim. So many more options when on a 17" rim but at least we have one?

[meepmeepmayer]

EcoDrift has a first article up about the V13! Unboxing and a first look.

https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2022/12/30/inmotion-v13-challenger-vneshnij-vid/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en

Really looking forward to their inevitable disassembly!

[UPONIT]

14 hours ago, Eyss said:

Somebody has a street tire on their V13

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/permalink/5757933397637909/?sfnsn=mo&ref=share&mibextid=KtfwRi

Love the companion video of the guy doing tight loops/backwards/one legged riding. It's a good answer to people's concerns about it being "too big."

10 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

EcoDrift has a first article up about the V13! Unboxing and a first look.

https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2022/12/30/inmotion-v13-challenger-vneshnij-vid/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en

Really looking forward to their inevitable disassembly!

Seems like he REALLY likes the wheel.

[UPONIT]

Man I want to preorder now. The first batch are gonna be in soon. Patience sucks. My brain has blocked out the reasons it's good to wait. It's not like the second batch is gonna be able to fly or something...

[Lets Do Science]

Pretty sure all of our wheels are on the same boat, did anyone purchasing from US distributor get provided a vessel tracking? I've got my shipping label and my wheel has still not been received by Fedex (please don't thrash my package FedEx bros). 

[rebeuc]

Here's a new review I haven't seen:

 

[UPONIT]

4 hours ago, rebeuc said:

Here's a new review I haven't seen:

 

English version of his original Russian (I believe) review. Thanks for posting.

If you play it at 1.5x speed, his very heavy accent becomes easier to understand for some reason?

[rebeuc]

There's a rider in Hamilton, NJ who has apparently had a v13 since mid-December; I'm not sure why his videos hadn't shown up in my searches before (there are others on his channel as well); he seems to really like it.

 

[novazeus]

looks nice and planted. nice speed in the video. all u need.

 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

7 minutes ago, rebeuc said:

I'm not sure why his videos hadn't shown up in my searches before

 

Not sure but his vids have been posted before. Thanks though.

+ if i recall correctly someone already made fun of his aliexpress gear.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Punxatawneyjoe
afterthought

[novazeus]

23 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Not sure but his vids have been posted before. Thanks though.

+ if i recall correctly someone already made fun of his aliexpress gear.

yeah, i remember that. 

just before his video was posted, i was gonna ask, 

where are all the new v13 owners?