Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Rawnei]

7 hours ago, spitfire1337 said:

Nice, Ive been modeling a 3d printed seat for mine. Here's the current iteration that just bolts to the top of the controller. I need longer bolts but the intent is to keep the red trim and have it bolt above it. I took it off just for fitting purposes until I get the longer bolts. Once I'm fine tuned and happy with it I'll print one out in ninjaflex for that extra soft seated ride.

If not just for demonstrational purpose I recommend you don't remove the red plastic thing that sits in front on top of the display cover as there is a risk that the display cover could flex and dent the caps underneath

[Rollin-on-1]

Does anyone have experience with the Jiluer 863 street tires that eWheels is putting on a portion of their S22 units? Feedback from firsthand experience greatly appreciated.

[kiitick]

I just put one on my second s22. I've only got 10 miles so far, but there is a difference for sure. It's a quiet tire, and because of its profile, much easier to turn tight, without throwing my weight around. The downside is that I've been fiddling with it for days, and still can't get it to center properly. The traction is also significantly less than stock. I think it's going to be a great street tire, as soon as I can get it to stop wobbling and get it balanced.

Edited December 29, 2022 by kiitick

[novazeus]

3 minutes ago, kiitick said:

I just put one on my second s22. I've only got 10 miles so far, but there is a difference for sure. It's a quiet tire, and because of its profile, much easier to turn tight, without throwing my weight around. The downside is that I've been fiddling with it for days, and still can't get it to center properly. The traction is also significantly less than stock. I think it's going to be a great street tire, as soon as I can get it to stop wobbling and get it balanced.

is that the same tire as on the s18?

[spitfire1337]

21 hours ago, Rawnei said:

If not just for demonstrational purpose I recommend you don't remove the red plastic thing that sits in front on top of the display cover as there is a risk that the display cover could flex and dent the caps underneath

Yeah it's not permanently removed, just for that picture it was as I was making sure it fit correctly. I've already got longer screws and put it back on 😁

[Rawnei]

@Seba the safety margin for the S22 in EUC World, is that a calculated value or wheel reported value?

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Rawnei said:

@Seba the safety margin for the S22 in EUC World, is that a calculated value or wheel reported value?

All Kingsong wheels report the pwm % beginning from the ks16s.

[Tawpie]

55 minutes ago, Chriull said:

All Kingsong wheels report the pwm % beginning from the ks16s.

and PWM is confusingly called "safety margin"... but then, you can set the lift switch to unmotivated so I'm not surprised.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Tawpie

[Chriull]

4 hours ago, Tawpie said:

and PWM is confusingly called "safety margin"... 

No. Euc world shows 100% - reported pwm% as safety margin.

[Seba]

5 hours ago, Tawpie said:

and PWM is confusingly called "safety margin"...

It's a matter of terminology. EUC World uses the term "safety margin" so that there is no doubt as to what it is for. PWM is an acronym for "pulse width modulation" - something that in its actual meaning has nothing to do with safety. While for some in the community the term implies engine load, for others it is a completely foreign word. As Chriull wrote, as a general rule, the safety margin is the inverse of the PWM ratio (albeit not always). This convention is much more appropriate. Human beings have such a tendency to perceive higher values as more correct (and therefore safer) and smaller values as incorrect or undesirable. At the same time, the difference between two large values is more difficult to perceive than the difference between a small value and zero. That is why only a 10% safety margin readout has a better effect on safety awareness than a 90% "PWM" readout. Just take a look at the picture below:

This is an image showing four different EUC World screens as seen on the watch, but only two situations are shown. On the left, the safe situation is shown, when the safety margin is 20% (corresponding to 80% PWM). On the right, the near cutout situation is shown, when the safety margin drops to 5% (corresponding to 95% PWM). In the top row you can already see the differences at a quick glance, meanwhile in the bottom row it is difficult to see the difference.

[Rawnei]

2 hours ago, Seba said:

It's a matter of terminology. EUC World uses the term "safety margin" so that there is no doubt as to what it is for. PWM is an acronym for "pulse width modulation" - something that in its actual meaning has nothing to do with safety. While for some in the community the term implies engine load, for others it is a completely foreign word. As Chriull wrote, as a general rule, the safety margin is the inverse of the PWM ratio (albeit not always). This convention is much more appropriate. Human beings have such a tendency to perceive higher values as more correct (and therefore safer) and smaller values as incorrect or undesirable. At the same time, the difference between two large values is more difficult to perceive than the difference between a small value and zero. That is why only a 10% safety margin readout has a better effect on safety awareness than a 90% "PWM" readout. Just take a look at the picture below:

This is an image showing four different EUC World screens as seen on the watch, but only two situations are shown. On the left, the safe situation is shown, when the safety margin is 20% (corresponding to 80% PWM). On the right, the near cutout situation is shown, when the safety margin drops to 5% (corresponding to 95% PWM). In the top row you can already see the differences at a quick glance, meanwhile in the bottom row it is difficult to see the difference.

Thanks, the reason I'm asking is that I had a high speed crash yesterday at 65.7kmh (wheel is fine and I am fine, fall wasn't too dramatic even at this speed, might do a post about this later), according to logs it happened with 16% safety margin which was surprising (I have my alert at 15% will increase this now), also I have experimented with safety margin alerts on the S22 before and found that anything between 15-18% roughly correlates with beeps and tiltback from the wheel, these things led me to believe it wasn't a wheel reported value but now it's even more confusing.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Rawnei

[Rawnei]

 

[redfoxdude]

Ecodrift installed some aftermarket CNC aluminum roller sliders.
https://ecodrift-ru.translate.goog/2022/12/31/kingsong-s22-menyaem-slajdery-na-roliki/?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

I think they went a little overboard with the disassembly, as we've seen you don't necessarily even need to unplug the motor, but anyways, there are some nice shots of it working well at the end. I'm still very curious to see how King Song's implementation fares. 

 

[novazeus]

my s22 doesn't charge to 126 volts. i saw marty's charger fix but mine had a bunch of goop over the pot and i didn't want to break anything. and i'm not that anal about an extra volt or two. 

do u think king song does that on purpose in case u live at a high elevation and don't want u pulling it off charge and getting regenerative voltage from braking? 

idk, just spitballing.

[novazeus]

On 12/28/2022 at 10:41 PM, kiitick said:

I just put one on my second s22. I've only got 10 miles so far, but there is a difference for sure. It's a quiet tire, and because of its profile, much easier to turn tight, without throwing my weight around. The downside is that I've been fiddling with it for days, and still can't get it to center properly. The traction is also significantly less than stock. I think it's going to be a great street tire, as soon as I can get it to stop wobbling and get it balanced.

that's the same tire on my s18 and it's horrible. i feel bad for a beginner to get this wheel with this tire and have to fight it and not know why. i have to hang my right foot off the pedal to get it to ride upright. wants to fall to the left. the center rib is about a 1/16" higher than the rest of the tread. and it likes to fall left for some reason. 

[Tawpie]

12 hours ago, novazeus said:

do u think king song does that on purpose

Not sure if it's on purpose, but this is from the LG M50LT data sheet https://www.dnkpower.com/lg-inr21700-m50lt/:

4.1.3 Charge / discharge condition

Cells shall be charged at constant current of 0.3C(1,440mA) to 4.10V with end current of 1/20C. Cells shall be discharged at constant current of 0.5C(2,400mA) to 2.85V. Charging and discharging are to be performed at 25 ºC unless otherwise noted (such as capacity versus temperature). Cells are to rest 10 minutes after charge and 20 minutes after discharge at 25ºC.

It is interesting they want constant current through the entire charge cycle... that might warrant looking into. The stock charger never ever gets to 0.3C, so that part is ok, the only thing the stock charge will do differently is the current will go down as the pack nears full voltage (and it has to, unless you apply a charge voltage higher than 4.2 V which is verboten).

But they do want you to stop at 4.10V, 30 * 4.1 = 123 V, not 126 V. Keep an eye on the individual cell voltages, you want them to be within 50 mV (ish) from each other at all times and at all voltages... that's "balanced, good enough".

Keep in mind that our obsession with 4.2 V and full-charge-plus-1-2-hours is predicated on the cheapo top balancing technique used in the traditional BMSs. The bleed resistors wouldn't kick in until 4.2 V so we had to get there for any hope of balancing to happen. 4.2 is the max charging cell voltage, I'd have that bleed circuit in there primarily to prevent overcharge but it serves well for allowing slow charging cells to catch up and balance. IMO, traditional top balancing is sort of a convenient side effect of basic over charge protection.

Because I can now see my cell voltages, my S22 charging regime is different than my other wheels. For the most part, I charge S22 to 80% and then check the cell voltages when charge stops. So far they've all been within 30 mV of each other. I only charge to 100% when I'm wanting max range... which so far hasn't been very often. My other wheels get full-charge-plus-1-2-hours when they're put on the charger.

I'm sure I won't ever experience the loss of cycles I would incur by charging S22 to 100% every time so I'm just being silly by stopping at 80%. I wouldn't worry at all about trying to get it to 126, in fact, I'd avoid it as long as the cells are less than 50 mV difference from each other. I do watch my S22 cell voltages, and recommend all do the same.

Edited January 2, 2023 by Tawpie

[novazeus]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

Not sure if it's on purpose, but this is from the LG M50LT data sheet https://www.dnkpower.com/lg-inr21700-m50lt/:

4.1.3 Charge / discharge condition

Cells shall be charged at constant current of 0.3C(1,440mA) to 4.10V with end current of 1/20C. Cells shall be discharged at constant current of 0.5C(2,400mA) to 2.85V. Charging and discharging are to be performed at 25 ºC unless otherwise noted (such as capacity versus temperature). Cells are to rest 10 minutes after charge and 20 minutes after discharge at 25ºC.

It is interesting they want constant current through the entire charge cycle... that might warrant looking into. The stock charger never ever gets to 0.3C, so that part is ok, the only thing the stock charge will do differently is the current will go down as the pack nears full voltage (and it has to, unless you apply a charge voltage higher than 4.2 V which is verboten).

But they do want you to stop at 4.10V, 30 * 4.1 = 123 V, not 126 V. Keep an eye on the individual cell voltages, you want them to be within 50 mV (ish) from each other at all times and at all voltages... that's "balanced, good enough".

Keep in mind that our obsession with 4.2 V and full-charge-plus-1-2-hours is predicated on the cheapo top balancing technique used in the traditional BMSs. The bleed resistors wouldn't kick in until 4.2 V so we had to get there for any hope of balancing to happen. 4.2 is the max charging cell voltage, I'd have that bleed circuit in there primarily to prevent overcharge but it serves well for allowing slow charging cells to catch up and balance. IMO, traditional top balancing is sort of a convenient side effect of basic over charge protection.

Because I can now see my cell voltages, my S22 charging regime is different than my other wheels. For the most part, I charge S22 to 80% and then check the cell voltages when charge stops. So far they've all been within 30 mV of each other. I only charge to 100% when I'm wanting max range... which so far hasn't been very often. My other wheels get full-charge-plus-1-2-hours when they're put on the charger.

I'm sure I won't ever experience the loss of cycles I would incur by charging S22 to 100% every time so I'm just being silly by stopping at 80%. I wouldn't worry at all about trying to get it to 126, in fact, I'd avoid it as long as the cells are less than 50 mV difference from each other. I do watch my S22 cell voltages, and recommend all do the same.

this is why i come here. to try and get more education! thank u.

[spitfire1337]

Is the s22 supposed to beep/tilt back at 43.5mph? In EUC world I run a -5% speed correction which is almost dead accurate with GPS speed. Reason I ask is I hit 41.6 with the speed correction, add the additional 5% back in that the wheel thinks I'm going and that puts me over the 43.5mph at 43.8mph and I didn't experience any tiltback or beeps and I know the s18 would tiltback and beep when you hit the speed limit.

Im not too worried about it as my safety margin didn't go below 25% so I had the necessary headroom still.

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, spitfire1337 said:

Is the s22 supposed to beep/tilt back at 43.5mph? In EUC world I run a -5% speed correction which is almost dead accurate with GPS speed. Reason I ask is I hit 41.6 with the speed correction, add the additional 5% back in that the wheel thinks I'm going and that puts me over the 43.5mph at 43.8mph and I didn't experience any tiltback or beeps and I know the s18 would tiltback and beep when you hit the speed limit.

Im not too worried about it as my safety margin didn't go below 25% so I had the necessary headroom still.

I understand that max speed tiltback is mild, enough so that there are cries that it makes the wheel unsafe. I have no intention of finding out for myself.

[Rawnei]

10 hours ago, spitfire1337 said:

Is the s22 supposed to beep/tilt back at 43.5mph? In EUC world I run a -5% speed correction which is almost dead accurate with GPS speed. Reason I ask is I hit 41.6 with the speed correction, add the additional 5% back in that the wheel thinks I'm going and that puts me over the 43.5mph at 43.8mph and I didn't experience any tiltback or beeps and I know the s18 would tiltback and beep when you hit the speed limit.

Im not too worried about it as my safety margin didn't go below 25% so I had the necessary headroom still.

You might be just at the edge of when the tiltback would start to engage, also as @Tawpie wrote it's very weak and can be mistaken for fatigue and easy to push through which IMO is very bad.

Which firmware are you on? On early firmware (2.19 or something like that) I experienced inconsistent behaviour of tiltback but it feels consistent now on 2.25.

In my experience S22 overreports more like 7% compared to GPS (6-7% seems to be the norm for most wheels for some reason?!).

[spitfire1337]

9 hours ago, Rawnei said:

You might be just at the edge of when the tiltback would start to engage, also as @Tawpie wrote it's very weak and can be mistaken for fatigue and easy to push through which IMO is very bad.

Which firmware are you on? On early firmware (2.19 or something like that) I experienced inconsistent behaviour of tiltback but it feels consistent now on 2.25.

In my experience S22 overreports more like 7% compared to GPS (6-7% seems to be the norm for most wheels for some reason?!).

I'm on the latest 2.25 firmware.

This is before I adjusted the speed difference:

 

And this is after, which is almost 100% accurate

 

[Rawnei]

The S22 is such a great winter wheel, the stock tire is really good on snow and I have put studs on it making it great on ice too! I have a second stock tire just waiting for tire swap when new season is here so will have one tire dedicated for winter riding just swap back and forth. 😁

45km cruise today on snow and ice super fun stuff, even the suspension helps on snow riding making it feel more stable among all the jitter on uneven surfaces.

It's really hands down best wheel I've had, makes me smile riding on it.

[Rawnei]

These are the studs I'm using, I've experimented before with studs with mix results but these one in combination with the S22 tire seem great:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32779702710.html

Previous one I tested had 2mm less thread which made them prone to falling out, also I mounted them on a Kenda 262 which isn't great for mounting studs as it has channels in the rubber making the studs even more prone to falling out.

These studs on the S22 tire seems to stay in place much better.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Rawnei

[novazeus]

just rode the s22. 

it trolleys like shit thru rough terrain, not so with the s18, not weight difference just poor placement of the trolley handle. 

and one of my donkeys freaked out and ran thru the fence so i had to cut short my riding to go doctor him. 

this is where i'll die when one of these idiots freak out and run over me. idk if it's the motor or the get up, but the animals sure are frightened by it. not just the s22, same with the s18.

[Rawnei]

3 minutes ago, novazeus said:

just rode the s22. 

it trolleys like shit thru rough terrain, not so with the s18, not weight difference just poor placement of the trolley handle. 

and one of my donkeys freaked out and ran thru the fence so i had to cut short my riding to go doctor him. 

this is where i'll die when one of these idiots freak out and run over me. idk if it's the motor or the get up, but the animals sure are frightened by it. not just the s22, same with the s18.

Try turning it around and trolley it from behind, it's quite comfortable imo, feels like the good ole MSP.