Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Paul A]

Would trust KS more than BG long term quality, company culture, history.

First adopters, guinea pigs, thanks in advance. 

[redfoxdude]

20 minutes ago, chanman said:

I was guilty of this until recently on the S18. I blame it on being very difficult to actually get enough air in the damn thing at like 220 psi with the pump they give you.

100% I bought a different shock pump, ha! 

[Driftcycle]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

 It's kind of weird to have a topic discussing the S34 turn into a my-favorite-is-way-better-and-this-wheel-is-trash urinating contest.

 

 

I concur 😅,  not sure why these new Master fans can't agree to disagree. No matter what I say they have a retort - now they are invalidating the countless ppl that tried the S20 and saying they never rode a suspension wheel (which is not true), so their opinion don't matter. We should just listen to a few select users like wrong way that attempted to climb a hill with lose dirt and ignore the masses and all the other videos of the kingsong climbing higher inclines.

Begode hero c̵o̵p̵i̵e̵d̵ was inspired by the S18 suspension to a degree

Begode Master c̵o̵p̵i̵e̵d̵ was inspired by the S20 design to a degree

Now you wish to convince others that the Begode will out-suspension Kingsong when Kingsong authors the blueprints. Sorry 😔

I will leave it there so let's change the subject because as Tawpie mentioned this thread is getting hijacked.

Lets get back to focusing on the any other changes heard in the grapevine coming to the first or second batches like the 40T high capacity battery.😁  

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Driftcycle

[Driftcycle]

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by Driftcycle

[zeroSIXzero]

8 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

True, though the demo S20/22 that I tried was like Wrong Way's, and playing with every which adjustment combination on compression and rebound damping didn't help - it was the sliders. My concern isn't debris clogging and locking up the suspension, my concern is the notable increase in friction from debris, which affects the performance and probably longevity of the slider surfaces. I think it's gonna be important on this wheel to clean and maintain regularly.
I wish I could find them, but I have seen videos with the shock removed and there is still a lot of friction. Lifting the chassis and letting it drop, it didn't just drop down effortlessly, but rather slowly slinked down. My S18 was like that until I got the motor clamps shimmed to align the sliders.

Thing is...

Both wheels have been tested like this with the suspension removed all together (sliders, liftet up and down). And the S20 hardly slides down at all. Sticking in the slidersystem, while Master slides fluintly.

[PourUC]

Just now, zeroSIXzero said:

Thing is...

Both wheels have been tested like this with the suspension removed all together (sliders, liftet up and down). And the S20 hardly slides down at all. Sticking in the slidersystem, while Master slides fluintly.

This is stock, which speaks to bad decisions by KS. But we also have videos of what happens once you PTFE lube the channel, and shave the rubber stopper thing.

Of course it would be nice to not have to do this. But once it is done it's much smoother. The community is going to have to come up with some better solutions overall, that does suck.

[techyiam]

But there are those out there making claims the high stiction is merely built-in damping, and thus is a feature since the wheel feels more rigid and solid, even though the stiction is ever increasing with dirt and grit buildup. Go figure.

[PourUC]

4 minutes ago, techyiam said:

But there are those out there making claims the high stiction is merely built-in damping, and thus is a feature since the wheel feels more rigid and solid, even though the stiction is ever increasing with dirt and grit buildup. Go figure.

In jest I would imagine. A point in favour for spring systems over air is they normally have less stiction.

It can still feel more solid though simply because of the characteristics of a metal spring compressing vs that of air. Springs are just much stiffer, so even with less stiction (friction in slider) the actual compression takes more initial force than air (obviously the air chamber could be at like 500 psi and match it, but this isn't normally the case).

[techyiam]

49 minutes ago, PourUC said:

In jest I would imagine. A point in favour for spring systems over air is they normally have less stiction.

Sorry, I was referring to the sliders.

[wstuart]

13 hours ago, redfoxdude said:

I think there's some truth to this. I've found that folks that don't ride suspension regularly prefer a lack of small bump compliance for the familiarity (to feel connected to the road, vs underdamped and floaty) and setup the suspension either way too preloaded and stiff in the case of coils, or air shocks with not enough air and practically 80% sag. This is just my personal experience, however.

 

I agree

I ride a Gotway EX (very little suspension and lower pedals)  and a V11 (very soft high and floaty). 

I actually prefer the lower pedals and connected feeling of the EX over the ultra smooth, but unconnected feel of the v11

  For this reason I think I will stick with my s22 pre order.  As good as the Master reviews are, I really don't like that the reviewers say that it feels like a tall pogo stick.  

 

[Paul g]

On 4/29/2022 at 1:32 PM, Rollin-on-1 said:

I respectfully disagree.  I think cleaning out the grease, coating the channels with PTFE is a good start and easy to do.  Going a step further and replacing those rectangular bits that are attached to the supports with a more appropriate material (perhaps POM, Delrin, or UHMW as discussed in many previous posts) will be another easy, affordable, and effective upgrade.  These upgraded pieces could even be shaped to scrape the dirt and debris from the inner channel walls and eject it out of the channels with each bump.  KS could do this, but this is minor as DIY or aftermarket compared to the mods done on other wheels in the past.  

PTFE are a type of PFAS. Despite the claims, they are not safe and they cause cancer. I would stay away from that thing. These are forever chemicals that will damage life on Earth for 800 000 years.

[Elliott Reitz]

1 hour ago, wstuart said:

I agree

I ride a Gotway EX (very little suspension and lower pedals)  and a V11 (very soft high and floaty). 

I actually prefer the lower pedals and connected feeling of the EX over the ultra smooth, but unconnected feel of the v11

  For this reason I think I will stick with my s22 pre order.  As good as the Master reviews are, I really don't like that the reviewers say that it feels like a tall pogo stick.  

 

You will enjoy your S22 when you can finally get one.  I will probably get a 2nd one to have a backup that's better than my S18.  Though I've been S22 controller dead for a couple weeks now, sucks.  The biggest quirk in the S22 that people haven't yet figured out is the spring suspension and its preload.  Like cooch-tech wipped his stock 750 spring into something lightweight and shorter.  He thinks the preload colar was lostening, but his big stuff out-flexed the stock spring.  I'm running a 350lbs spring (there's a thread here on it) that's 190mm so has to be compressed to fit and once on has perfect pre-load.

[fryman]

https://fb.watch/cJku-jk3IP/ 

 

[wstuart]

14 hours ago, Driftcycle said:

 

This is the best review video yet!!!  I actually really like that they don't get into the minutia of plastic handles, bumpers, rusty screws or suspension sliders.  These guys just ride both side by side and talk about the experience.  I also like that they don't agree!

From their differing opinions I'm discerning the following:

If you want the ultimate suspension wheel with "good enough" torque/speed - BUY THE S22.

If you want the ultimate "have your cake and eat it too" torque/speed monster with "good enough" suspension. BUY THE MASTER.

Personally, I'm buying a new HV suspension wheel for the suspension- not so much the HV.  So the S22 makes more sense to me.  If others are buying more for the next level power and speed of 120+v systems, the Master makes more sense. 

BTW "good enough" here means good enough for 95% of riders.  I think the torque/speed of the S22 will be fine for almost everyone and the suspension on the Master will be great (although I don't like the high pedals).    Barring any firmware or hardware issues you can't go wrong with either

 

.......cough cough, Abrhams, cough cough V12....

 

.... what could go wrong?  

[Rawnei]

35 minutes ago, wstuart said:

This is the best review video yet!!!  I actually really like that they don't get into the minutia of plastic handles, bumpers, rusty screws or suspension sliders.  These guys just ride both side by side and talk about the experience.  I also like that they don't agree!

From their differing opinions I'm discerning the following:

If you want the ultimate suspension wheel with "good enough" torque/speed - BUY THE S22.

If you want the ultimate "have your cake and eat it too" torque/speed monster with "good enough" suspension. BUY THE MASTER.

Personally, I'm buying a new HV suspension wheel for the suspension- not so much the HV.  So the S22 makes more sense to me.  If others are buying more for the next level power and speed of 120+v systems, the Master makes more sense. 

BTW "good enough" here means good enough for 95% of riders.  I think the torque/speed of the S22 will be fine for almost everyone and the suspension on the Master will be great (although I don't like the high pedals).    Barring any firmware or hardware issues you can't go wrong with either

 

.......cough cough, Abrhams, cough cough V12....

 

.... what could go wrong?  

Yes I agree, thinking about it more now the S22 might actually be a pretty good complement to my Sherman Max, LOL, maybe time to switch back, specially after seeing Jimmy Changs latest video about the Master as well.😅😅

[Paul A]

Get both. 

[TheseusMinor]

Although the new suspension wheels improve a lot on the S18, there's still no new lightweight torquey suspension EUC: a wheel for tricking like a street skater would; light enough to bunny hop onto kneehigh ledges/boulders and 360 hop off; wall riding tree trunks et cetera. Hence my next EUC purchase will most likely be an S18.

[AtlasP]

18 hours ago, TheseusMinor said:

Although the new suspension wheels improve a lot on the S18, there's still no new lightweight torquey suspension EUC: a wheel for tricking like a street skater would; light enough to bunny hop onto kneehigh ledges/boulders and 360 hop off; wall riding tree trunks et cetera. Hence my next EUC purchase will most likely be an S18.

Tangent: observe that eWheels downgraded their recommended weight limit for the S18 to just 200lbs(!)--it's literally been changed on the site--which is pretty insane/I can't recall when a distributor has made such an extreme downgrade in their recommendation. That 3p configuration proving to be as insufficient in practice as was initially feared. (The P42a cells they're offering in their eWheels edition should help mitigate this--but anyone riding a stock/regular S18 should be extra-careful.)

Edited May 1, 2022 by AtlasP

[jcfp]

27 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Tangent: observe that eWheels literally downgraded their recommended weight limit for the S18 to just 200lbs(!)--it's literally been changed on the site--which is pretty insane/I can't recall when a distributor has made such an extreme downgrade in their recommendation. That 3p configuration proving to be as insufficient in practice as was initially feared.

Interesting.  I received their Molicel S18 a week and a half ago.  I have 150 miles on it so far.  I weigh close to 200 lbs with gear.  Today I took it from 6mph to 31.2mph in the span of a few hundred feet at 96% battery.  Zero Voltage sag--96% all the way to full speed.  I got about 37.5 miles on my range test.  No annoying getting kicked off at the tail end of the charge.  VERRY happy with the EWheels S18 Special Edition!

[chanman]

Fortunately EWheels is also offering the P42A option, which will offer more current than you could possibly ever want in a 3P configuration, with the drawback of only having a 900Wh capacity.

Mine is stock and I push it pretty hard, but I happen to be under the 200lb figure and go much easier on it when I'm below 50% charge, which isn't often.

Edited May 1, 2022 by chanman

[jcfp]

31 minutes ago, chanman said:

Fortunately EWheels is also offering the P42A option, which will offer more current than you could possibly ever want in a 3P configuration, with the drawback of only having a 900Wh capacity.

Mine is stock and I push it pretty hard, but I happen to be under the 200lb figure and go much easier on it when I'm below 50% charge, which isn't often.

I have the EWheels Molicel version -- about 150 miles on it in a week and a half.  I weigh 191 with gear.  Did a range test second day--got 37.49 miles on about 98% charge.  Tried to take it easy on it on the last couple percent, because I had seen a lot of Youtube range tests with the regular battery, and things really slowed down on them at the end.  I didn't experience that at all.  ZERO battery sag.  Went from 6mph to 31.2mph asap today -- trying to mimic the Youtube vid where Wrongway dropped from 77% to 6% battery in several seconds of hard acceleration and experienced severe pedal dip.  No drama, and battery stayed at 96% all the way to max speed.

I would say the lower capacity isn't really hurting the range.  And all of it is usable--I was going about 13mph when I pulled into the yard at 0%.  I spoke to Jason at EWheels before buying and he said they had just shipped the first units the day before I bought mine, so he hadn't gotten feedback yet, but I might not be losing much range because of the efficiency of the Molicel.  Does it even sound like it's giving up any?

[chanman]

1 hour ago, jcfp said:

37.49 miles

Somehow missed your first post, site is a little wonky on mobile with not updating. Yeah that's pretty in line with the range I get on the stock packs when I'm not pushing high speeds and crazy accelerations, with the last few miles limping trying not to get beeps.

Edited May 1, 2022 by chanman

[oolong]

5 hours ago, TheseusMinor said:

Although the new suspension wheels improve a lot on the S18, there's still no new lightweight torquey suspension EUC: a wheel for tricking like a street skater would; light enough to bunny hop onto kneehigh ledges/boulders and 360 hop off; wall riding tree trunks et cetera. Hence my next EUC purchase will most likely be an S18.

S18 is nice, it's my daily driver and it feels agile on the streets.  I've always thought that a euc with a 12 inch and maybe a 3" wide tire would be a good street/trick wheel.    I don't think you would want suspension.  Just something powerful with really good ergonomics.  Hopping on knee-high ledge wouldn't be a big deal if you have the right pads and the wheel is light enough.  You want something with lots of torque and quick acceleration to get up ramps, etc.  Not sure if that would be high volt or high current, something high volt would probably use different battery technology to get something in the 134v range in a small package. 

[Forwardnbak]

i just got back from a group ride and managed to ride the new firmware. Was up to high 50s/60s (km/h) on a slight incline and little bit of beep. 

Had non stock pads, felt better. 

lower pedals, felt ok

Pirelli Diablo Rossi tire, felt great! 

Small stairs and just a quick ride but it felt really solid. Especially at speed and braking. 

i’ll edit it together and hopefully it looks ok. 

 

[MrP-MrF]

4 hours ago, Forwardnbak said:

i just got back from a group ride and managed to ride the new firmware. Was up to high 50s/60s (km/h) on a slight incline and little bit of beep. 

Had non stock pads, felt better. 

lower pedals, felt ok

Pirelli Diablo Rossi tire, felt great! 

Small stairs and just a quick ride but it felt really solid. Especially at speed and braking. 

i’ll edit it together and hopefully it looks ok. 

 

And torque ? Better ? More reactive ?