What to do - Battery not charging to 100%

[Arrt]

On 9/18/2021 at 4:49 PM, mrelwood said:

Yes, if. This too should definitely be confirmed before connecting then both. The app reported voltage is indeed close enough, you’d be using the same measurement device after all.

For example: Charge one pack, let sit for 10+ mins, check the voltage, and disconnect the pack. Repeat for the other pack, and if at about +/- 0.2V, then you can safely connect both packs.

We are probably getting ahead of the situation, but this is simply too important not to say before they might already be opening up the wheel to reconnect cables.

Ok, so to make sure I got this right, before I open my wheel up I am going to record the voltage before charging, once the charger turns green, before unplugging the charger, and then again after unplugging the charger. I have an ewheels adustable fast charger with a display, should I also make note of the readout it is giving me at those times?

Then once my wheel is open and hopefully I just disconnected one of the battery packs by accident or something the procedure to re connect it would be to fully charge and verify the voltage of the currently connected pack, disconnect it, and then connect the previously disconnected pack, charge it up to full and if the two voltages match I can reattach the other pack?

Should/can I use a multimeter for more precise info?

Thanks! 

[RagingGrandpa]

10 minutes ago, Arrt said:

Ok, so to make sure I got this right

Let's keep it simple...

The objective is to make the two packs be the same voltage, before connecting them to eachother.

I think the easiest way is:

1. Open the EUC
2. Disconnect one battery pack
3. Recharge the EUC until the charger light turns green
4. Unplug the charger
5. Check the app-reported voltage (should be 83.5V-84.5V)
   Pack 1 is now full.
    
6. Disconnect that (full) battery pack
7. Connect the other pack to the controller
8. Recharge the EUC again until the charger light turns green
9. Unplug the charger
10. Check the app-reported voltage (should be 83.5V-84.5V)
    Pack 2 is now full.
     
11. Then finish reassembly by connecting everything.

You could also check a pack voltage at any time using a multimeter, but only if you're confident in how to use one.
A 1.5kWh battery is not a good place to "teach yourself"

[Chriull]

10.1 Only proceed to 11 if voltage difference is small! 

Is already implicitly stated by 

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

should be 83.5V-84.5V)

But i'd change "should" to "has to".

More than a volt difference (or even less, depending on paralleled cell count) needs courageous connecting without hesitation...

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, Chriull said:

needs courageous connecting without hesitation

and best done in a place where a) there is room to run away without crashing into a wall or tripping over your stool, and b) you wouldn't be worried about lighting a string of firecrackers.

The thing is if the voltages are different at all, the pack with the higher voltage will try to charge the pack with the lower voltage and will do so in an uncontrolled manner. This isn't an issue if there's very little (0.1V) difference between the two because the current involved is low, but if the difference is larger the risk of unpleasant surprises increases. A lot!

[Vam Monaco]

On 3/25/2021 at 5:41 AM, Chriull said:

 Veteran is about the only wheel with no 100%

WHAT’S UP WITH THAT?

Doesn’t Apple regulates the iPhone so you can’t charge it to 100% because “it’s bad“ or some shit?

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Vam Monaco said:

WHAT’S UP WITH THAT?

Doesn’t Apple regulates the iPhone so you can’t charge it to 100% because “it’s bad“ or some shit?

Why didn't you quote the word range?! 

Veterans have no 100% range - they show 100% only if the battery reaches 4.2V (times serial cell count).

All other wheels already show 100% at some 4.1XV (times serial cell count) - so one does not see small charger output voltage/wheel motherboard measurement inaccuracies.

Btw - all this has nothing to do with smartphones as the most likely work with very different state of charge techniques.

[Hholaach]

Having the same problem too

[Boogieman]

My way of charging my 

Veteran Sherman v.2 (new rim and higher hangers, 4 leads to each charge port)

Background: I dont ride every day and certainly seldom to sub 30% charge.

Chargers:

- Original (some say its preferred. on the capacitor issue in different thread, i dont have it, i have the big capacitors) but I only tried it a few times.

- Jia Rui JR-B900-100. Can charge 80/90/100% at 2/6/8 Amps. Fully connected lead from charger (all 4 pins) to a 1-2 splitter (4 to 2 pins) to distribute heat on two ports. 

Charger behaviour:

They both starts "flashing" on the ready led at end of charge, but JIA rui shows amps going down. Trickle? doesnt seem like as then voltage/amps should fluctuate on display and they do not :-S

Also when sherman have had "enough" the charging circuit is totally cut as you can see Jia rui display start dropping from 100.8V down toward 0V (very long time to 0V as capacitors are quite beefy, so normally a few volts when I disconnect)

In between rides:

When not riding i try keep charge between 50-80% (if sub 50 I charge to 80% on Jia Rui normally at 2A).

Before riding: I charge 100% until Sherman itself cuts the charge (Sherman different like that) so balanced. When possible i charge at 2A over night or before going out (or from morning). From 80 to 100 the last 20% doesn't differ a lot in charge time as its mostly constant voltage meaning amps go down even if set to 8A.

After riding:

Never charge immediately. Allow batt pack to "cool off" and get indoor humidity (live in apartment so must charge inside im afraid) for a few hours.

Displayef values:

Difference on Sherman reported and JIA rui display is -0.5V on Sherman adjustment / adjusted in Sherman display to get them equal. I GUESS this doesn't affect charging, JUST displayed value (could be dangerous/ over charge, if not)

 

So far 2 years in it still charges 100.6-100.8V on both displays (adjusted on Sherman) but haven't ridden that much, 970 Km). I also have tiltback set to 58.2 Km/h last step before no limit so no extreme loads on battery in that way, but do ride offroad so peaks are there uphill and in and after bumps.

Note: Everyone probably knows this. Long press till long beep on lower left display button on Sherman changes to voltage display (and can cycle other values with upper left button).

I do this by default even when going out riding to have actual voltage and for sure when making charge tests. EUC world i have checked as well, but cant remember if it matches that voltage or not. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by Boogieman

[Fahrtwind]

I had the problem with my V8F, charging stopped at 81,4V - leaving the wheel connected to the charger for hours after the light turned green didn´t help. I measured the voltage of the charger: 81,4V. I opened up the charger and found a setpoint potetionmeter (covered with white goo) and adjusted the voltage back to 84v. Now everything seems to be fine again. Why does the output voltage changing over time? Anyone found the same behavior with an inmotion charger?

Edited June 23, 2022 by Fahrtwind

[RagingGrandpa]

9 hours ago, Fahrtwind said:

V8F, charging stopped at 81,4V
I measured the voltage of the charger: 81,4V.
I opened up the charger and found a setpoint potetionmeter (covered with white goo) and adjusted the voltage back to 84v.
Now everything seems to be fine again.

Bravo!

Electronic components age and change characteristics... cheap components change more quickly... defective components even more quickly... oh well, just continue to monitor it occasionally. 

[rumpel]

My KS - 16s 67,2 V charged to 66,5. I checked charger and that was it's Voltage -  66,5. Now my next wheel KS - 18 XL charges to 83,4 V instead 84. Charger when checked with multimeter shows 83,4. The other charger a fast one shows exactly the same value 83.4... Multimeter cold be faulty.... 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, rumpel said:

Multimeter cold be faulty.... 

Probably just not accurate enough. It’s common to have a +-1% accuracy on multimeters cheaper than $100.

[BarrettJ]

My Mten3 420Wh/67v only charges to 70% now.   Based on the following:

Quote

• Battery only charges to some 7x to 8x%. Here most likely one cell group is completely dead and will show ~0V if one opens the pack. It can not be charged anymore and has an increased change for fire hazards. Do not use this pack anymore - replace it!

I'm assuming the battery is bad (from watching a teardown video it looks like the battery is just one unit and not separate packs) - is that accurate and is it even possible to get a replacement or should I just consider the wheel a lost cause/too big of a fire risk?

[RagingGrandpa]

16 hours ago, BarrettJ said:

Mten3 420Wh/67v only charges to 70% now

1. Don't ride it.
2. Don't recharge it. 
3. If you notice the voltage is decaying during storage (e.g.: losing 1V per day), store the EUC outdoors in a fire-resistant location. 
4. Remove the battery pack from the EUC and open its plastic cover to expose the PCB and cells inside.
5. Inspect the pack for physical damage, broken tabs, and corrosion.
6. Measure individual cell voltages with a multimeter.  

• Most likely outcome: If any cell is <1.5V, the pack cannot be used. Replacing individual cells in the pack is difficult to achieve reliably. In most situations, it makes more sense to dispose of the pack. Many Home Depot and Batteries Plus stores recycle LIB's for free; call ahead to confirm. 
• Lucky but rare outcome: If all cells are >1.5V, you could attempt to manually balance the pack, by recharging the low cells individually, to get them to match the voltage of the other cells. If you do this, the pack should accept a full charge again... just monitor it closely for recurrence of the imbalance problem. 

[Milordas]

i do not see any point to disconnect one battery pack, as every battery pack have its own bms, just leave batteries on charger for long time and if battery packs is both healthy, then it should charge to 100%, but even if not chage its not big deal. Few % give you nothing

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Milordas said:

i do not see any point to disconnect one battery pack, as every battery pack have its own bms, just leave batteries on charger for long time and if battery packs is both healthy, then it should charge to 100%, but even if not chage its not big deal. Few % give you nothing

That is a bad piece of advice. The BMS doesn’t protect you from charging zero or negative voltage cells, nor cells that have been below 2.5V at some point. All of these increase the fire risk of the battery pack, some of them tremendously.

 If the wheel didn’t charge above 70%, it sold not be charged or ridden. Sure, you just might be fine if you’re in luck. But the risk is way too large to try. We don’t need any more entries in the fire statistics.

[Punxatawneyjoe]

9 hours ago, Milordas said:

do not see any point to disconnect one battery pack,

because it's at high risk to catch fire. a few percent isn't a problem but the way i understand it is that that type of discrepancy causes a huge risk of the pack catching fire with use or charging.

[Milordas]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That is a bad piece of advice. The BMS doesn’t protect you from charging zero or negative voltage cells, nor cells that have been below 2.5V at some point. All of these increase the fire risk of the battery pack, some of them tremendously.

 If the wheel didn’t charge above 70%, it sold not be charged or ridden. Sure, you just might be fine if you’re in luck. But the risk is way too large to try. We don’t need any more entries in the fire statistics.

If cell s below 2.5v then they definetly need to replaced. As they newer will be charge. Leaving batteries on charger isnt bad, as bms protects to charge them over 4.2v. Risk on fire from charging on big amperage, with stock charger didnt had problems ever

[mrelwood]

14 minutes ago, Milordas said:

If cell s below 2.5v then they definetly need to replaced. As they newer will be charge.

They will still charge up just fine. The chemistry has just changed enough for it to become potentially unstable while charging.

14 minutes ago, Milordas said:

Leaving batteries on charger isnt bad, as bms protects to charge them over 4.2v.

That’s the thing, bad cells don’t need to be overcharged for them to burst into flames. Besides, BMS overvoltage protections have failed before on healthy cells as well.

14 minutes ago, Milordas said:

Risk on fire from charging on big amperage, with stock charger didnt had problems ever

Read the fire thread. Most EUC and PLEV fires in general happened when charging with the stock charger.

Edited September 9, 2023 by mrelwood

[RagingGrandpa]

I discovered when troubleshooting a SherMax: 

Veteran Leaperkim controllers do not permit recharging to 100% when only one battery pack is connected. 

Even if the one pack is perfectly healthy and in a normal operating state, the controller will only allow it to recharge to ~80% state-of-charge. 
For SherMax, this occurs just before 96V. 

It makes troubleshooting battery problems slightly more challenging, because you can't confirm normal full-charge operation on one pack at a time. 

So instead, if you want to confirm a pack is working normally (without removing its shrink-wrap cover), I recommend:
+ recharge Leaperkim packs individually without using the EUC mainboard, by carefully connecting a charger directly to the pack connector. 
Be sure to use a spare mating connector of the correct type (e.g.: XT90) to connect the charger, especially if the pack uses the green-dot XT90AS, to avoid poor connections or overheating the connector's precharge resistor. 

This is not a BMS bypass. There are still over-voltage and over-current shutoff mechanisms built into the pack itself, without relying on the controller: so if the pack has a dead cell, it will still interrupt your charging when bypassing the controller this way. 

 

"Why don't they permit full recharging of one pack only?"

I can only speculate... Perhaps they wanted it to be more obvious to the user, that something has become disconnected?

.02

[Mono]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:35 AM, Fahrtwind said:

Anyone found the same behavior with an inmotion charger?

Yes and frequently with all kind of chargers including those of InMotion.

[dwagelaar]

On 6/23/2022 at 10:35 AM, Fahrtwind said:

I had the problem with my V8F, charging stopped at 81,4V - leaving the wheel connected to the charger for hours after the light turned green didn´t help. I measured the voltage of the charger: 81,4V. I opened up the charger and found a setpoint potetionmeter (covered with white goo) and adjusted the voltage back to 84v. Now everything seems to be fine again. Why does the output voltage changing over time? Anyone found the same behavior with an inmotion charger?

@Fahrtwind My V8 has also stopped charging to 100% a while ago, and goes up to 93% only now. I've measured the charger (XVE-8400150) output voltage as 82,2V. I also opened up the charger found the white goo, but nothing that looks much like a potentiometer. Can you point out which is the potentiometer in the attached picture? Thanks in advance!

[RagingGrandpa]

40 minutes ago, dwagelaar said:

Can you point out which is the potentiometer

Under the red goo is a small slot to turn with a screwdriver... power it up, monitor the voltage, and give that a twist

[Mono]

Does anyone know what the goo is for?

[Chriull]

11 minutes ago, Mono said:

Does anyone know what the goo is for?

That prevents the screw from turning by vibrations, etc after beeing adjusted.

Sicherungslack - ?locking varnish?

Edited January 7 by Chriull