What to do - Battery not charging to 100%

[Aztek]

6 hours ago, Chriull said:

You know if this is 20s3p with 3.5Ah 18650 or 20s2p with 5Ah 21700?

I've seen statement it is 18650.

[Aztek]

I noticed that the power socket reports 125W power when charging the KS, while discharged to about 50% and 131W when probably fully charged (reporting 84.2V - probably overreporting).

What might be the reason? The battery circuit resistance reports 0.29 ohms all the time.

Also, I wonder, will it balance if I cut it when reporting 84V, which is the supposed max voltage? (I worry of overcharging.)

Is there a way to measure precisely the real voltage?

How can I make sure the charger does not overcharges?

 

 

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Aztek said:

I noticed that the power socket reports 125W power when charging the KS, while discharged to about 50% and 131W when probably fully charged (reporting 84.2V - probably overreporting).

What might be the reason?

I don’t know exactly how the chargers’ power consumption changes in relation to the output current and voltage. But when the battery surface voltage reaches 84V, charging is not ready, it is just entering the Constant Voltage part of charging. 

It would make sense that the charger requires a little more current from the socket to provide 84V than it does for 72V. The charging current itself could’ve been the same in both situations.

5 hours ago, Aztek said:

Also, I wonder, will it balance if I cut it when reporting 84V, which is the supposed max voltage? (I worry of overcharging.)

Max voltage doesn’t yet mean max capacity. In that sense batteries don’t work like a fuel tank does. Balancing starts when the first cell reaches 4.2V, so if your battery is out of balance, some balancing is already in process. But majority of balancing happens during the CV stage, which has just only started.

5 hours ago, Aztek said:

Is there a way to measure precisely the real voltage?

Sure, buy a calibrated volt meter and open up the wheel.

Any regular multimeter can have as much as +-1% tolerance, and so does the circuit in the wheel that measures voltage. But a precise measurement isn’t necessary. The BMS in each pack protects from overcharging, so that even if the charger would go all the way up to 85V, the BMS interrupts the charging process if any of the individual cells go above 4.25V or so.

 Measurement precision is much better at 4.2V than 84V, so there’s no reason not to trust the BMS to do its job.

5 hours ago, Aztek said:

How can I make sure the charger does not overcharges?

Measure the charger output voltage when the charger is not connected to the wheel. If it is close to 84V, I don’t see a reason to worry.

 Which charger are you using?

[Aztek]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Measure the charger output voltage when the charger is not connected to the wheel. If it is close to 84V, I don’t see a reason to worry.

It reports 84 - 84.1V. I use the original slow 84 / 1.5A charger. However it brings the EUC reading to 85V and even then continues and doesn't turn green.

Should I leave it couple of hours past 85V reporting to eventually turn green?

 

 

 

[Chriull]

31 minutes ago, Aztek said:

It reports 84 - 84.1V. I use the original slow 84 / 1.5A charger. However it brings the EUC reading to 85V and even then continues and doesn't turn green.

The 85V reported instead of 84V you measured is due to the inaccurate voltage measurement of the mainboard!

Ks18xl is "known" to report around 84.5V for full charge, maybe 16xs  us about the same?!

Just be carefull if you go downhill fully charged - with the mainboard beliebing the battery at 85V it will gice overvoltage warning and then tiltback and shut off finally if going down too long!

If this could be a problem complain/dispute with your reseller wrong mainboard measurement!

31 minutes ago, Aztek said:

Should I leave it couple of hours past 85V reporting to eventually turn green?

Exactly!

The wheel reports already full voltage/100% charge somewhere around 8x-9x% real charge - that is the end of the CC phase. After this comes the CV stage with full voltage where the remaing percentage is charged and the cells get balanced. At the end of this stage the charger turns green and should be disconnected!

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

The wheel reports already full voltage/100% charge somewhere around 8x-9x% real charge - that is the end of the CC phase. After this comes the CV stage with full voltage where the remaing percentage is charged and the cells get balanced

Well, okay... I'll do this and see what is happening.

I suppose, if I max it out in the evening, the morning it won't feel 100% so I won't risk too much if driving downhill.

Thanks for the advice!

[Tawpie]

My 16xs control board also reported 84.5v at full charge. After I installed a 16x control board, it never reports higher than 83.8v. I forget what the open circuit uncalibrated multimeter pack voltage was but 84.1v sticks in my mind. I’m confident that 84.5v is measurement error and you are in no danger of overcharging the wheel!

The 777WH 16xs battery is 20s3p 18650 cells.

When my wheel was new and still a xs it would beep 6 times an hour or two after the stock charger went green… but it hasn’t done that in quite some time.

[Aztek]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

My 16xs control board also reported 84.5v at full charge. After I installed a 16x control board, it never reports higher than 83.8v

Thanks, good to know!

[Aztek]

To finish this story:

Today I finally left the wheel to charge at will from 60% up.

It started as usual - 1.4A current, 0.31 ohms battery circuit resistance charging to the habitual for this wheel 84.5V (0.5V over the tech specs, probably wrong measurements, as the charger's output is 84).

Anyway, after it reached 84.5V the current started going down. Firstly 0.5A, after 0.4, 0.3 and finally zero.

At this moment, the charger turned green for the first time.

Pack balanced. I guess.

[WIZARD]

This is such a useful and serious subject I hate to put it here. Maybe have a laugh at me.

My brand new Telsa T3 came via being throw down the stairs.

I've been duct tape and coat hangering it to see if I can keep from returning it.

The charger dent work eighter having its box visibly Crushed.

I finally took the plunge and opened her up. Had to Drill the stupid screws out.

The assembly or shipping monkeys misaligned or bent the Green led and the window remained Black.

I scooted the led over 1/4 inch and now it reads both Green or Red!!!

I also removed 2 wires in contact with a dangerous looking coil?

Now my wheel charges fine.

Still too hot to pick up and I won't charge inside 😬.

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, WIZARD said:

Still too hot to pick up and I won't charge inside

uhm, it's not supposed to be that hot, warm yes, but never ever too hot to pick up... you DO need to file a claim with your reseller so they can file a claim against the shipper. You need a new charger. Even if it's outside you don't want it to fail and blow up your T3.

[WIZARD]

Hummmmm....

My whole euc came in a beat up box. The new charger box was even crushed INSIDE.

I'm concerned about all the return and claim process. Then the additional ordering, processing, Back Ordering, etc.

Lastly, I am ill. It is still summer. My last summer to ride. 

I have inspected and duct taped it together enough to ride my beautiful trails and parks and lakes for one more month or two.

Thats why I have not returned it.

[Tawpie]

Sorry to hear all that. I hope you get better and can get more than a little riding in before the snow flys (but don't let snow stop you, it's a BLAST riding in the snow).

This is just what I'd be doing: I'd be in writing to EUCO sending them pictures and demanding a new wheel and charger... to be sent at their expense. AND they need to provide you with a new box in which to return the original shipment completely at their expense. I'd make it very clear to them that you will not return the original wheel until you've received a new one that you're satisfied with. And I would hold out the option of contesting the charge on my card (you have pictures). If they don't want the original product back, they should pay for responsible disposal (although, having a machine to part out wouldn't be the worst thing in the world—I would work with them on that!).

Even if the charger wasn't bashed up in transit, being too hot to pick up is a warranty issue.

EUCO has to deal with UPS, the shipping contract was between those two. EUCO is responsible for getting you merchandise in undamaged and fully operational condition.

It's a hassle of the first order, but a byproduct of the on-line economy.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Tawpie

[WIZARD]

I completely agree with all of your well thought out comment. I know you would just like to help.

I guess I am not really saying how ill I am. 

I dont have the energy to go through everything needed.

I recommend Euco and I've said that in writing. They are GOOD PEOPLE. Its China and FedEx.

I just want to make people aware. To ask questions. All salesmen are NOT honest. China has no conscience. FedEx is a bunch of monkeys.

I love my euc. You should too. There just isn't anything like it.

I'm no wuss. I've put in 3000 miles at 68 years old. Snow, ice and even worst of all Mud. I've got 3 busted ribs, a wrenched back and a Cancer diagnosis outta the whole thing.

I wouldn't change a thing. I've ridden twice already today. I'll be out tonight.

[Spaghetteh]

I've been charging my brand new 18XL for the first time and while the charge level says 100% and the charger LED has been green for about an hour, the reported voltage through EUCW and the KS app is 83.7V; which differs from my 18L and 16X which both charge to about 84.3V. I'm currently trying a different charger but it doesn't seem to be making a difference. Should I be concerned?

[.....]

4 minutes ago, Spaghetteh said:

I've been charging my brand new 18XL for the first time and while the charge level says 100% and the charger LED has been green for about an hour, the reported voltage through EUCW and the KS app is 83.7V; which differs from my 18L and 16X which both charge to about 84.3V. I'm currently trying a different charger but it doesn't seem to be making a difference. Should I be concerned?

Nope. Voltage reporting is notoriously inaccurate. If a charger charges one of your wheels to 84v but another shows a little more or less, just assume the wheel is reporting wrong. It took me a year to finally get over worrying, as I'm ocd. I'd only be concerned if its more than 1.5v off. Charge it ride it, enjoy it!

[Spaghetteh]

Just now, ShanesPlanet said:

It took me a year to finally get over worrying, as I'm ocd.

Lol this is good for me to hear as I tend to be as well. Thanks

[Arrt]

I am pretty over my head with much of the technical electrical stuff. And I'm sorry if my question has been answered a thousand times. I have had my very used 18xl for a few months mostly doing off road stuff never any long trips. Last night I did a 10 mile trip starting at 60% and ended at 20% going about 20-25mph the whole time. Never really tested the range as it would be many days between charges. This seemed like extra bad mileage. I'm charging it up now and it is charging way too fast. I guess my question is, the app(euc world) is still saying it's going up to 100%. Also on the battery page of euc world I have never gotten any information besides the voltage in the top left corner. and on the main of the app the current while the charger says is 4amps the app fluctuates between .2 and .3 amps.

I have no idea what I am doing or what I should do.

any tips on the appropriate thread or any advice would be appreciated.

[.....]

25 minutes ago, Arrt said:

I am pretty over my head with much of the technical electrical stuff. And I'm sorry if my question has been answered a thousand times. I have had my very used 18xl for a few months mostly doing off road stuff never any long trips. Last night I did a 10 mile trip starting at 60% and ended at 20% going about 20-25mph the whole time. Never really tested the range as it would be many days between charges. This seemed like extra bad mileage. I'm charging it up now and it is charging way too fast. I guess my question is, the app(euc world) is still saying it's going up to 100%. Also on the battery page of euc world I have never gotten any information besides the voltage in the top left corner. and on the main of the app the current while the charger says is 4amps the app fluctuates between .2 and .3 amps.

I have no idea what I am doing or what I should do.

any tips on the appropriate thread or any advice would be appreciated.

That IS pretty bad mileage. A 4amp charger will taper down to a lot less .2/.3 amp as it nears end voltage. The reporting of the wheel to the app is not always VERY accurate, but it should be in the ballpark. I would suggest watching it charge and noting the end voltage when the wheel disconnects on full charge. If you are getting it to near top voltage but are getting horrible mileage, it could be a couple things. It could be that one of your battery packs is simply not connected. This would explain why the wheel shows proper voltage, but charges too fast and you have bad range.  You could be looking at old and weak cells. Even if a cell charges to full, if it is weak, it is merely not storing the amperage it used to. Voltage and amperage are related but different. Sometimes cells fail and cant reach specified voltage. Other times they simple weaken and will get to the voltage but not accept/store much amperage. Kind of like having a teeny tiny 12v lawnmower battery vs a HUGE 12v tractor battery. Both are 12volts, but are VERY different in capacity.

My suggest would be to open the wheel to simply check connections. If its used and offroad, you may want to do this now and then as maintenance. YOu know, check cables and screws and all that jazz. Pay close attention to the charging cycle and end voltage. We arent looking for exact, but a general idea. If it does eventually show correct voltage, maybe go for another range ride. You should be seeing 30-50 miles pretty easily on the 18XL, before facing throttling or being below 20%, and thats if you ride 25mph averages. If you have a charger with readout (my ewheels does), I can actually see the AMPERAGE that has been sent for a charge period. If a wheel doesnt take the amperage you are expecting, its again... weak packs or a disconnected pack. Also note, % of charge is kind of a guessing game. Voltage is a good number, but % is a formula of voltage. The problem arises in the fact there is NO EXACT VALUE that we can rely on, that means actual %. We can get close, but % depends on what you declare minimum voltage to actually be. Eucw lets you do custom voltages, and this can change what % is being reported. I doubt your % values are the problem, as you do mention poor range. I had my custom eucw voltages whoafully off once and it was telling me I had used 10% of my battery after 40 miles. haha, yeah right.

Keep us posted and be very careful. If you are facing weak packs, you have lost a LOT of headroom and the wheel can easily be overpowered. Eventually weak packs can become BAD packs. Bad packs can become a hazard. Don't panic, it aint like its a bomb, and for now, we really cant jump to any conclusions.

Edited September 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Chriull]

42 minutes ago, Arrt said:

This seemed like extra bad mileage. I'm charging it up now and it is charging way too fast. I guess my question is, the app(euc world) is still saying it's going up to 100%.

Seems like only one battery of both packs is working. Either one has internally cut off - don't know if this is possible? - or connections are off.

42 minutes ago, Arrt said:

and on the main of the app the current while the charger says is 4amps the app fluctuates between .2 and .3 amps.

This is not charging current but "used" current. Only newer ks show charging current. Ks18xl were just "in the middle". Some Ks18xl show charging current, some don't. Depends on motherboard and firmware version.

42 minutes ago, Arrt said:

I have no idea what I am doing or what I should do.

As @ShanesPlanet wrote open the wheel.and check connections. If they are ok get the bad battery and replace it.

 

[Arrt]

Thanks, I have opened the wheel a few times since I got it for tire stuff and could have messed something up one of those times. I will try that. Just road around after charging it to full, I did a mile and a half and eucworld is still reading 100% and was at 83v. 
Hopefully its just a loose battery cable on one side. 

Thanks for yalls help so far!

[mrelwood]

I would advise to exercise extreme caution if you’re going to open up the wheel. The most important thing is to understand that if one of the battery packs is disconnected or has a bad connection, you can’t reconnect it without measuring the pack voltages first! If the other pack got disconnected at a different voltage level than currently in the remaining pack, reconnecting it could melt the connector, burn your fingers, damage the battery pack, or even cause a violent fire burning down your house.

I would first carefully check the voltage from the app at the start of a charge, when the charger turns green, before unplugging the charger, as well as after unplugging the charger. That would already give us quite a bit of information, and help advise the best next steps of investigation.

[.....]

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 The most important thing is to understand that if one of the battery packs is disconnected or has a bad connection, you can’t reconnect it without measuring the pack voltages first! If the other pack got disconnected at a different voltage level than currently in the remaining pack, reconnecting it could melt the connector, burn your fingers, damage the battery pack, or even cause a violent fire burning down your house.

Worth repeating. also, dont use threadlocker near plastic unless specifically designed for it...

I would imagine you could connect and charge packs one at a time until full. If they are are working properly, the charger should bring them each to a close enough voltage upon full, to get you going. Voltmeter would be best, but if one pack is hooked up, you could use the app reporting to get a near guesstimate.

Edited September 18, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

52 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

If they are are working properly, the charger should bring them each to a close enough voltage

Yes, if. This too should definitely be confirmed before connecting then both. The app reported voltage is indeed close enough, you’d be using the same measurement device after all.

For example: Charge one pack, let sit for 10+ mins, check the voltage, and disconnect the pack. Repeat for the other pack, and if at about +/- 0.2V, then you can safely connect both packs.

We are probably getting ahead of the situation, but this is simply too important not to say before they might already be opening up the wheel to reconnect cables.

Edited September 18, 2021 by mrelwood

[Arrt]

Thanks, I had thought about that and was hoping that the bms would take care of that for me, but I will proceed with caution.