Fire Resistant EUC Charging Bag

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, enaon said:

But lets not talk about solutions to contain the fire inside anything within the house for more that a few seconds, this is not really funny.

But, but that was my plan.. Letting wheel burn itself out.

 

Mostly if noone is home and fire starts...

[enaon]

2 minutes ago, Funky said:

But, but that was my plan..

I am not sure you are not trolling me.
look at what Seba did, you need a solution to suppress the fire, not let it start, if it starts, you need a back up plan, like a second house. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon

[Funky]

Just now, enaon said:

I am not sure you are not trolling me.
look at what Seba did, you need a solution to suppress the fire, not let it start, if it starts, you need a back up plan, like a second house. 

I am not.. I swear.  But now it sounds like i am.  

Yeah i saw that build. It looked sweet as hell. Sadly i won't be running water lines..

[enaon]

4 minutes ago, Funky said:

Sadly i won't be running water lines..

ok running water pipes is maybe difficult, use your time to find another solution to take temperature down when smoke/temperature rise is detected.

 

you have to kill it while it is young 

Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon

[RagingGrandpa]

2 minutes ago, enaon said:

anyway, this needs proactive measures, fix your wheels, recall all packs that are known to have problems like ewheels did, and get over the firesak/firebox/firewhatever idea

Aww, the message here shouldn't be "there's nothing you can do."

Any amount of preparedness puts you at an advantage! 
I want to encourage owners to read about the hazard and learn to answer:

"What are the warning signs?"  (failure to fully charge; hot spots when the EUC is off or recharging; water immersion)
"What does a battery fire look and sound like?"  (lots of examples available)
"Can I put it out?"  (almost certainly not, so don't hang around trying) 
"How does it hurt people?"  (smoke is acidic and burns your eyes and lungs) 
"Where should I put my wheel?"  (somewhere that doesn't block your exit and won't suffocate you in your sleep) 
"If it starts smoking, what do I do?"  (move it outdoors- preparing things like gloves, tools, and an exit path for this can make a big difference)

The forum has lots of background information on all these. 
 

There's no such thing as a perfect wheel; and there's no such thing as a non-hazardous Li-Cobalt cell. 
Even owners of the best-reputation cells benefit from education here.

[enaon]

1 minute ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Aww, the message here shouldn't be "there's nothing you can do."

this is not my message, the message is fix the problem before it becomes one, you cannot fight it. 

[RagingGrandpa]

5 minutes ago, enaon said:

you cannot fight it

You can!

(Hopefully, it smokes, and you throw it outside. As has occurred in multiple instances of EUC fires.)

This fire bag thread is teaching us how difficult it is to make an indoor fire be safe if left unattended... but often, it's attended! Prepare! Act!  
 

Edited September 29, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Funky]

2 minutes ago, enaon said:

ok running water pipes is maybe difficult, use your time to find another solution to take temperature down when smoke/temperature rise is detected.

Yeah i also had idea of a trap door on string. If wheel starts burning it drops down into water tank. But sadly i didn't feel comfortable leaving my 2000$ thingy on a thin wire and letting it fall in by mistake. (Also lifting it desk high after each ride..) Really anything to do with water in general.. Only thing i can do is build some kind enclosure, where i could leave it unattended, without any risk of burning down my apartment.

Regular fire could be contained.. But sadly the explosion/flamethrower/fireball is the most problematic to mitigate.  

[enaon]

yes ok, of course you can fight a problem that is not a problem yet, I was talking about the idea of having a wheel burning inside the home with in a bag or whatever, and expecting to have a home afterwards. 

[supercurio]

16 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

You can!
(Hopefully, it smokes, and you throw it outside. As has occurred in multiple instances of EUC fires.)
This fire bag thread is teaching us how difficult it is to make an indoor fire be safe if left unattended... but often, it's attended! Prepare! Act!  

I must admit that this is the part that makes me uneasy, for several reasons:

1. Some think that it's fine to buy wheels from manufacturer with poor track record and known defects in their current, latest best BMS, because they have a bag that will handle the fire in case it happens. Instead of not buying or getting something else better designed.
2. If a fire happens: instead of running as far away as possible from it immediately, the instruction is to instead grab a bag that might be about to explode any second. An immense risk augmentation.
3. In the case of the Firesak, there was no solution for airflow. It means that humidity brought with the wheel would have almost no chance to escape during hours of charging and later, potentially corroding bearings and battery cells unless their packs are 100% air-tight. An increase of risk of fire instead instead all rainy or snowy days.

I'm really split here. All these factors making things worse instead of better make me think that a fireproof bag can be as harmful as it could be helpful if not worse - all things considered.

There's a saying for that in french: "une fausse bonne idée"

Edited September 29, 2022 by supercurio

[Freeforester]

In weakness, there is strength!

1) Maybe upend the fire sack, placing a small piece of plywood on the erstwhile top inside, to support the weight of one’s suspect incendiary wheel plus any stand;

2) suspend the bag from above with a piece of plastic rope tied to the sack handles, a wall fixing and pulley may assist;

3) place a water filled container of suitable dimensions underneath the firesack-enclosed and suspended suspect incendiary wheel;

4)initiate mission control countdown, secure in the knowledge that upon ignition, 

a) the zippers and velcro will fail, and/or

b)our ‘failsafe’ plastic rope will melt and fail, either way

c)dunking the combusting content into aforementioned water container.

Kindly arrange for my prize fire sack to be sent to this MSP owner-in-need, lol!

Edited September 29, 2022 by Freeforester

[enaon]

I will explain why I am participating in this thread

first, it was Ginger having a burning battery inside his car inside a bag, that made me feel like I wanted to place real a burning battery inside this bag, so that he stops bullshitting on YT. 

then it was his second video, where he said that this bag, with a burning wheel inside, will protect the house it no one is there to take it out, no problems. You can guess what this made feel like wanting to do. 

the reason, besides Ginger having no idea of what he is talking about qualifications wise, is that I have experience with houses and fires, I have set mine on one, fire Department hosing through the windows and all. The walls could not be touched for over an hour after the fire went down, I had to reinforce the concrete plates to keep structural integrity of the building, it really is no joke, and no place for someone that has no idea of what he is talking about to be playing with. 

We do not want a fire to start, we must find way to suppress it, it cannot be contained, this must be the focus I think.

[Funky]

Also if it starts smoking - you may be lucky and have enough time to get the thing out of your house. Or it could explode right the moment you lift it. Also by grabbing the wheel and running true house.. It suddenly explode right in middle on room near forniture. Escalating the fire.. And as bonus you get body burns.

 

I mainly need/want an enclosure that could contain all that hell, if something goes wrong, when wheel is unattended. And also i don't need to do many step to store in/out of so said enclosure. My best bet was metal box, that is well ventilated, same time vents are directed to nothing that could catch on fire easily. Whole enclosure padded with A1 fire resistant materials. (And that box may work only if all cells in pack don't ignite at same time. And if fire start fast as possible - less flammable gasses let in my room.) < I know it still isn't fireproof setup. But at least something better than leaving wheel on simple stand right next to my bed..

[Funky]

15 minutes ago, enaon said:

We do not want a fire to start, we must find way to suppress it, it cannot be contained, this must be the focus I think.

No shit Sherlock Holmes, noone wants the fire to start.  Sadly we can't really suppress it. (Without dunking it under water. Cooling the thermal runaway.) We can only try containing it as much as we can at least..

 

Oh i got an idea. Liquid Nitrogen. It will put out fire and same time stop thermal runaway.  (Sadly you can't buy in you trusty Home Depot..)

Edited September 29, 2022 by Funky

[enaon]

8 minutes ago, Funky said:

Oh i got and idea. Liquid Nitrogen. It will put out fire and same time stop thermal runaway.  

nice, this a viable solution I think for a small closed area like a box.

hmm, maybe not much from what I read below 

Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon

[Tawpie]

1 minute ago, Funky said:

Liquid Nitrogen. It will put out fire and same time stop thermal runaway

and the unburst cells will freeze and short out and head to runaway... the LN2 meantime has drifted away.

[Funky]

 

6 minutes ago, enaon said:

nice, this a viable solution I think for a small closed area like a box.

Doh the initial flame/blow could blow up the "closed" box. The box would need some kind smoke, battery "smell" sensor for releasing nitro in the box, before fire starts. Or something like that.. I'm no tech savvy...

Edited September 29, 2022 by Funky

[enaon]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Which law?

I think it this one in EU (not law as such), where myewheels that sells them is located, and needs a CE mark. 

UNE EN 1869:2021

but it is funny talking about law and regulations when we are riding euc's, even some of our chargers are not CE marked, so it really does not matter as long as it works, but it can't work with lithium batteries. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon

[Freeforester]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

Some think that it's fine to buy wheels from manufacturer with poor track record and known defects in their current, latest best BMS, because they have a bag that will handle the fire in case it happens.

How many manufacturers use Lithium ion batteries?     I’m guessing virtually all do, but this may be incorrect. LiFePo packs have been offered, but generally speaking, declined.    Are we to consider lithium batteries as being inherently safe, or unsafe - indeed, is it ‘the fate of the glass to break’?

The scenarios where wheels made by manufacturers with ‘good track record’ and little to no ‘known defects’ have ignited nonetheless are many, and most user-caused instances of bumps, knocks, crashes, dunks, soaks, etc are just that, ie outwith the control of the same ‘good’ manufacturers alluded to.  Whilst it is perhaps positive to castigate or even boycott makers of outright dangerous products, it does little to address the plight of owners of makers of ‘good’ and ‘less good’ wheels alike who have been unfortunate enough to have suffered a fire which has probably had its root cause in circumstances outwith the control of the manufacturer. This can include eg defective chargers as well as  ‘inadvisable’ riding techniques (user-induced, component-damaging, manufacturer-precautionary-advice-ignoring, etc), which, when considered dispassionately may lead one to conclude that the cause: effect principle may apply in some cases, ie we must consider ‘user error’ as well as poor design.
This being said, I salute all who endeavour to bring greater safety to our chosen hobby/sport/pastime/daily commute, etc, which until battery technology becomes somewhat more safe than is the case today, we are wise to give some thought upon; with such an amount of potent, potentially explosive energy between our feet however, we are indeed ‘playing with fire’, something we may do well to remind ourselves periodically, and reflect upon our attitude toward same; it is all well and good to point at the ‘errant’ makers, but we also should consider our own part in the play, big or small.
 

As for the ‘speed of action/s taken to mitigate or reduce smoke and fire damage, I think it would do little harm and possibly much good to ‘war-game’ the what-if, worst case scenario/s, and do what one can to at least have some semblance of a fire-drill in mind and one which will preferably have been practised; a pair of stout non-flammable gloves nearby, along with a wire lead or chain of suitable length attached to a ‘dolly’ (weight-bearing trolley) upon which the EUC may be stored on its stand may facilitate its ejection from the home at a slightly lesser risk than laying one’s hands on the smoking or burning article.     Wheels can yet be useful!

Edited September 29, 2022 by Freeforester

[enaon]

12 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

and most user-caused instances of bumps, knocks, crashes, dunks

all but soaking are not user error I think, an euc that cannot be dropped has design errors, needs better protection. 
our problem is ourselves, we want safe eucs, but we also want a a huge battery with the thinnest sidewalls, if they put smaller battery and use the space for protecting the cells, we will not buy it. 

so we are buying fire bags, safety first. 

Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon

[Eucner]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Which law?

It is the law for CE mark. For example https://min.news/en/home/4e80fe97b2279f78fbaaf293489db49d.html .

[enaon]

just to clarify, the mandatory conformity marking needed in EU for such products, is not the same as the china export mark, china just happened to like the font I guess. But I for one could not care less about markings, but I do care about false advertising on safety issues. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by enaon

[360rumors]

7 hours ago, Funky said:

I didn't say that his intentions wasn't good or otherwise.. Anyone who tries to protect people houses from fire are good in my book. He simply more or less blindly sold them. < That annoys/bugs me the wrong way.

Good luck filling that trashcan while wheel burns. Maybe the wheel will be underwater before the second pack ignites.  Worst case - the first pack has already exploded. Best case - you catch it smoking and fill the trashcan enough that wheel is under water and nothing happens.

Have you tried filling it without the wheel? How long did it take? My guess well over 1 min. < Imagine what happened in video at your place, till you fill it enough. You need 2 trashcans, one already full of water. So you don't waste any second if something goes wrong. In fires every second may save or lose a life.

It will submerge it in water faster than if it were not in a can, right?  The issue is not whether it's full proof, but whether it's better than the alternative (i.e., no can). 

[Eucner]

42 minutes ago, enaon said:

but it is funny talking about law and regulations when we are riding euc's

.I know we have a lot of work to do with EUC manufacturers.

[Tawpie]

5 hours ago, enaon said:

safety first

sticker on my S18 says "Safety Last"