Fire Resistant EUC Charging Bag

[Funky]

16 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

 

I own a metal box (and enjoyed seeing your project too)...
But the rate of energy release here makes me have doubts about a cabinet being effective at preventing other things in the room from being ignited. Those burning bits flew long distances.

 

I specially placed the box so nothing is at the other side. At least nothing like clothes, etc. That would catch fire very easy. So flames/sparks can travel there.

I even placed it like that - in mind that flames would come out of those holes.

[GoGeorgeGo]

20 minutes ago, enaon said:

your wheel made two explosions 4 minutes apart, of almost equal size, say 1500wh each. Sure it can handle 2000wh wheel, as long as the cells show good sportsmanship and explode one at a time.

i am very interested in seeing gingers 900wh pack test recreated now. but id like to see it with the pack still inside the wheel not removed. i think its important to see how the cells react susoended in the middle of the bag allowing air to circulate around them and with the extra fuel of the plastic and rubber. i winder if it can even handle a single pack going up never mind a full 1800wh blast. 

the two explosions in my video where only about 1500wh each so even half that size of a blast is still enourmous.

someone do this or donate me a junker wheel to test it with :p

Edited September 26, 2022 by GoGeorgeGo

[Robse]

It's simple;  In order to store ANY lithium powered PEV inside a house / apartment in a (fire)safe way,  this item must be stored in a

1: Sealed and closed "Container" able to withstand the heat of a welding flame as well as the pressure of a big firecracker (or more...)

2: Be connected to the outdoors via a fireproof channel, also called a "chimney" - because the greatest danger of death is not the fire but the smoke, and it does not disappear by magic just because you use a firesak or homemade container made of metal @Funky or plasterboard and wood (me @Robse)

In other words: Use a blast proof wood burning stove for storage.

or:

Store your wheel outside.

 

[Funky]

6 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i am very interested in seeing gingers 900wh pack test recreated now. but id like to see it with the pack still inside the wheel not removed. i think its important to see how the cells react susoended in the middle of the bag allowing air to circulate around them and with the extra fuel of the plastic and rubber. i winder if it can even handle a single pack going up never mind a full 1800wh blast. 

the two explosions in my video where only about 1500wh each so even half that size of a blast is still enourmous.

someone do this or donate me a junker wheel to test it with :p

I would love to see that! The seller of the bag ginger should do the test.. How many have he sold. I bet he could afford a junker 1800Wh wheel for a actual test! Otherwise that bag are completely useless without any real world tests.

Placing a small pack and batteries going off 1 by 1 isn't a "real" test.

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Archee Jan Bloch said:

I knew there is a big risk and I did open it and it was wet but cells were in pouch, siliconed so water seemed not to get to the actual cells>>
If you know how the loomo is setup iti's 24S7 p split at  12s and 12s 4p on one side then 20S3p on the other and wire runs to the other side where there is additional 4S3P

Were they LG M50T 21700 cells? Just curious. 

[Funky]

5 minutes ago, Robse said:

It's simple;  In order to store ANY lithium powered PEV inside a house / apartment in a (fire)safe way,  this item must be stored in a

1: Sealed and closed "Container" able to withstand the heat of a welding flame as well as the pressure of a big firecracker (or more...)

2: Be connected to the outdoors via a fireproof channel, also called a "chimney" - because the greatest danger of death is not the fire but the smoke, and it does not disappear by magic just because you use a firesak or homemade container made of metal @Funky or plasterboard and wood (me @Robse)

In other words: Use a blast proof wood burning stove for storage.

or:

Store your wheel outside.

 

I personally don't care about the toxic smoke. Because i will be running away from that room.  Or when no one is home.. Also you forgot RockWool..  

I just needed something that contains open flames and flying batteries.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Funky

[enaon]

55 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I see the fiberglass bag did stay intact for the biggest part of the fire

this is true, the material is nice, the idea of a bag is not. This material should be standard wrapping on the packs, or aftermarket wrapping if one is really worried.

[RagingGrandpa]

I was impressed that an entire group of (more than 5) cells burst nearly simultaneously.

In my earlier test I attempted (severe but relatively brief) overcharging, and short-circuiting, and was unable to get a violent chain reaction. @Mike Sacristan also tried really hard to get cells to burst, including by putting them directly in a fire, and struggled to get a chain reaction started.

Perhaps there is something special about this kind of charging-and-heating-for-hours type of situation that brings a large group of cells to the brink of disaster all at the same time... but I think it will be difficult for others (you, me, @Ginger On Wheels, anyone) to reproduce this energetic of a fire. And we'll need to, to study alternative designs.
 

18 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Were they LG M50T 21700 cells?

Some of the early custom 100V big-battery Monsters used the "Tesla Model 3" 21700 Panasonic's, which were prolific for a while as "salvage" parts (from new EV packs that were rejected for various reasons and then disassembled). Those were particularly sketchy, as they lacked the same cell-top safety features that most other cylinder cells get.

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by RagingGrandpa

[Robse]

16 minutes ago, Funky said:

I personally don't care about the toxic smoke. Because i will be running away from that room.  Or when no one is home.. Also you forgot RockWool..  

I just needed something that contains open flames and flying batteries.

I know - you may have a chance - if you hear that smoke alarm.  But these fires happens so fast, it took me 10 seconds to get to the scene of crime (this one below)

and 10 seconds is from this, to this

 

 

Edited September 26, 2022 by Robse

[Eucner]

2 hours ago, Archee Jan Bloch said:

he wrote me he didn't...not sure why

In the EU everything sold as protective equipment need to be tested by a certified lab. Now I appreciate it even more.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, Robse said:

I know - you may have a chance - if you hear that smoke alarm.  But these fires happens so fast, it took me 10 seconds to get to the scene of crime (this one below)

and 10 seconds is from this, to this

 

 

Yeah i think i will hear the "popcorn" of a wheel going off right next to my bed.  Or that fire alarm going off right on-top of my head. (I live in very small bedroom.) Whatcha going to do?? I don't have "perfect" space to leave my wheel somewhere.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

Metal zippers might help. For a while. Then they'll probably melt too. Our hot boxes and firesacks can buy us a few seconds of time, time that must be used to get people away.

 

Some rough energy numbers:

1 kWh battery has holds 3.6 MJ of energy https://www.calculateme.com/energy/kilowatt-hours/to-joules/#:~:text=A kilowatt hour is a unit of energy,Therefore%2C a kilowatt hour is 3.6 million joules.
1 kg of TNT holds about 4.2 MJ of energy "which is enough to raise the temperature of a liter of water by about 1,100 degrees Celsius — or equivalently, to shoot that same liter of water about 470 kilometers straight into the air." https://first-law-comic.com/how-many-joules-are-in-a-tnt-blast/

So if I let all the energy out of my little S18 battery all at the same time, it's kind of like a kg of TNT (almost 4 sticks of dynamite) going off.

Battery fires generally don't let all the energy out at once, but all the energy does come out over time.

GET EVERYONE OUT OF THE BUILDING

 

Edited September 27, 2022 by Tawpie

[Robse]

14 minutes ago, Funky said:

Whatcha going to do?? I don't have "perfect" space to leave my wheel somewhere.

it wasn't to pick on anyone  I'm well aware that it's actually a big problem, and it can't be right that owning a EUC ends up being something that's only for people who have 
their own house and garden and the opportunity to store the wheel outside.... but what the f to do?   Owning an EUC reminds me of the time (many years ago) I won a transistor
pocket radio at a fairground.  It was made in china at its worst. But it could receive a signal, distorted, and it was great until the little 9 volt battery managed to kill a transistor because
the volume was turned all the way up...and then it was trash.

[Funky]

22 minutes ago, Robse said:

it wasn't to pick on anyone  I'm well aware that it's actually a big problem, and it can't be right that owning a EUC ends up being something that's only for people who have 
their own house and garden and the opportunity to store the wheel outside.... but what the f to do?   Owning an EUC reminds me of the time (many years ago) I won a transistor
pocket radio at a fairground.  It was made in china at its worst. But it could receive a signal, distorted, and it was great until the little 9 volt battery managed to kill a transistor because
the volume was turned all the way up...and then it was trash.

Moral of story: Euc is like Radio made in China - trash.. Gotcha 

[Begodecrashtestdummy]

If you have endless amounts of money ..you could put one of these specialty lithium device and battery storage containers behind your house. https://www.uschemicalstorage.com/chemical-storage-applications/lithium-battery/

Edited September 27, 2022 by Dosingpsychedelics

[WILSONEUC]

7 hours ago, Robse said:

It's simple;  In order to store ANY lithium powered PEV inside a house / apartment in a (fire)safe way,  this item must be stored in a

1: Sealed and closed "Container" able to withstand the heat of a welding flame as well as the pressure of a big firecracker (or more...)

2: Be connected to the outdoors via a fireproof channel, also called a "chimney" - because the greatest danger of death is not the fire but the smoke, and it does not disappear by magic just because you use a firesak or homemade container made of metal @Funky or plasterboard and wood (me @Robse)

In other words: Use a blast proof wood burning stove for storage.

or:

Store your wheel outside.

 

Store your wheel outside? Ok so personally my options are...a garage that is not temp controlled, a shed next to it that is not temp controlled, trunk of my car, and a storage shed attached to my apartment. With it being cold soon in Maine, it gets ~0-15 degrees F on average dead of winter.  In summer, ~70-100 degrees usually very humid on summer days here. The only place i can store is inside home where its dry, and ~50-70 degrees F year round.  


The question is, storing outside...can batteries handle the cold?  These fire proof ideas, like cabinets, are good for a lot of people who have full control, and full responsibility  of their living space and have some room to have fire cabinets, and other means of storage. Im glad George covered those who dwell in apartments, and the FireSak was one of those options for fire mitigation, which obviously failed.  In this case, as a renter with not much personal space of my own I would have to play it out day by day if super worried about a fire everyday, ask my neighbor to utilize his shed or garage that I do not own risking his property , or store all wheels in my jeep which also fluctuates with temperature hour by hour basis.  The only solution for peace of mind, is renting a storage unit, and still if something goes in flames there i would be solely responsible I assume .

Ahh...the joys of the hobby, the could be's and the what if's.

Thoughts of those people who store outside, with not many options,  in locations with all 4 seasons (hot and cold)?

Edited September 27, 2022 by CyberV0LT

[Tawpie]

49 minutes ago, CyberV0LT said:

Thoughts of those people who store outside, with not many options,  in locations with all 4 seasons (hot and cold)?

I moved my wheels outdoors, we get warm not hot, and cool not cold. When it's forecast to drop below 30F I bring the wheels indoors. The outdoor storage bin has a couple of low wattage heaters in it for modest humidity control (keep the interior of the box above dew point) and that has worked very well. I also have a remote temperature and humidity monitor with alarms to my phone so if things get too hot or cold I can bring them in.

Definitely not ideal, but they're dry and not in the house. If a wheel catches fire, there's a smoke alarm in there and we shouldn't have an issue evacuating the house (it doesn't block any exits). I should probably upgrade the smoke alarm to one that runs off the wall power so it's linked to the ones in the house but…

[Robse]

8 hours ago, Tawpie said:

1 kWh battery has holds 3.6 MJ of energy https://www.calculateme.com/energy/kilowatt-hours/to-joules/#:~:text=A kilowatt hour is a unit of energy,Therefore%2C a kilowatt hour is 3.6 million joules.

1 kg of TNT holds about 4.2 MJ of energy "which is enough to raise the temperature of a liter of water by about 1,100 degrees Celsius — or equivalently, to shoot that same liter of water about 470 kilometers straight into the air." https://first-law-comic.com/how-many-joules-are-in-a-tnt-blast/

So if I let all the energy out of my little S18 battery all at the same time, it's kind of like a kg of TNT (almost 4 sticks of dynamite) going off.

Battery fires generally don't let all the energy out at once, but all the energy does come out over time.

GET EVERYONE OUT OF THE BUILDING

 

As far as i know does the (electrical/chemical) energy stored in the battery not have any effect on how fierce a fire / explosion is. (lithium batteries).  Its not the electrical energy stored that "comes out" in a fire.  Its the "not wanted" chemical reaction between lithium, Oxygen and Water.  The only issue is, that if you have a pack with defect cells, these cells may overheat and/or went when they are charged.  Furthermore, you have to take time in account:  I takes about 4200 joules to heat 1 liter of water from 20° til 21° C.   Eq it takes about    0,3 MJ to heat 1 liter of water to boiling point.  Re the above:  A 1 KWH battery can heat up 10 liters of water from 20° to 100° C  The main difference to TNT is, that the TNT would perform this heating in 0,0000001 second.  Even if your battery explode, this explosion does not reach the reaction of TNT by a fraction. 

[Eucner]

9 hours ago, Tawpie said:

1 kg of TNT holds about 4.2 MJ of energy "which is enough ... to shoot that same liter of water about 470 kilometers straight into the air." https://first-law-comic.com/how-many-joules-are-in-a-tnt-blast/

Very impressive way to demonstrate the battery power content. Unfortunately it neglects air drag and uses too low gravity value. Don't try to test it, you wouldn't get the advertised height.

[360rumors]

9 hours ago, Robse said:

As far as i know does the (electrical/chemical) energy stored in the battery not have any effect on how fierce a fire / explosion is. (lithium batteries).  Its not the electrical energy stored that "comes out" in a fire.  Its the "not wanted" chemical reaction between lithium, Oxygen and Water.  The only issue is, that if you have a pack with defect cells, these cells may overheat and/or went when they are charged.  Furthermore, you have to take time in account:  I takes about 4200 joules to heat 1 liter of water from 20° til 21° C.   Eq it takes about    0,3 MJ to heat 1 liter of water to boiling point.  Re the above:  A 1 KWH battery can heat up 10 liters of water from 20° to 100° C  The main difference to TNT is, that the TNT would perform this heating in 0,0000001 second.  Even if your battery explode, this explosion does not reach the reaction of TNT by a fraction. 

I’m not a scientist but I know a depleted lithium battery will be unlikely to produce a large fire. Conversely an overcharged lithium battery can become very explosive. So I believe that the charge level does have a correlation with the fire risk. 

[Tawpie]

There are a gazillion ways to debate this... the point is that a battery contains an awful lot of energy.

If you convert the energy stored in the chemicals in the battery in an uncontrolled manner, it usually ends up as heat, so have realistic expectations if you experience a battery fire. You can certainly get lucky and get the thing out of your house. Many have done so, mostly with smaller wheels. But I don't think it's prudent to expect a fabric sack or thin walled metal enclosure to do much more than buy you a handful of seconds—maybe you'll have minutes. The best you can expect (in my opinion) is that the enclosure will slow down the spread of the fire, but I don't think you should expect it to stop the fire from spreading at all… there's too much energy in play. It's in the same league as expecting a batch1 wheel to leave every single pre-order owner breathlessly happy.

This does not mean you shouldn't consider a Firesak or hot box or keeping your wheel in the fireplace because those extra seconds or minutes might be the difference between property loss and loss of life + property. Just don't expect too much, and get everyone TF out of the building as priority one.

[RagingGrandpa]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/5474560135975238/?comment_id=5474985359266049&reply_comment_id=5475567515874500 

Quote

With the amount of returns we are processing, FireSak is done. There will be no gen 3. I was just trying to do something good for the community, I made ZERO profit from this (I had it all invested in gen 3), and now after the returns there is negative $. I guess you'll have to hope someone else is willing to step up. Fireproof lockers and safes are an option, but those would be $1500 + duties, tax and shipping.

Tough to see a developer get beat up to the point of despair... hope he doesn't quit.

[Funky]

36 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/ElectricUnicycle/posts/5474560135975238/?comment_id=5474985359266049&reply_comment_id=5475567515874500 

Tough to see a developer get beat up to the point of despair... hope he doesn't quit.

Honestly he offered no "real" tests. And blindly sold those big/medium bags - the same specs as the small ones, for bigger wheels. And then (pikachu surprise face) when someone truly does a real world test and firesak fails. You don't need to be a genius to understand that 2x/3x bigger batteries will burn so much more violently.. The bag may work only for smaller wheels, less than 1200Wh. And still that's big "may".

In my mind he provided false/blind security for people who thought that their houses are now protected from fire. Imagine if something went wrong and the same thing as in video happens in someone's home!

I for sure would be very angry, if i had bought firesak - now finding out it don't do jack shit. The bag failed with 1500Wh pack.. And mainly because all cells ignited the same time. As the bag got torn apart because of explosion. But still he marketed those bags as "safe". Simply false marketing - without any tests. The bag may (again big "may") have survived and worked as intended, if cells have ignited 1by1 or so..

He has zero pity from my. For false marketing and selling false/blind security. Because people life's where at stake. And fire isn't a joke thing.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Funky

[Tawpie]

Let's try not to get on too high a horse here. The developer IN MY OPINION, made a good faith effort to bring something to the community that he believed, and that his testing indicated would be helpful in the event of a fire. Was his testing 100%? No. Did his adverts leave room for us to imagine performance beyond the product's actual real-life capabilities? Perhaps or even yes. But I see no malice here.

I haven't fire tested my storage solution at all, has anyone tested theirs? I know we aren't selling our designs and that's another step, but honestly, what do you really think will really happen? I fully expect mine to burn to the ground unless the fire department was already lounging at the beach (they do that… take the truck out for a drive and hang at the beach). Hopefully everyone understands that an energetic chemical fire is exceptionally difficult to control and won't be surprised at the result.

I personally never believed Firesak or anything short of a firebrick lined blockhouse would prevent a Li Ion fire from spreading (and even then…), obviously others did. Without the sack, do we know that the 20 foot clearance to the shrubbery would have been sufficient and flying cells or the pre-ignition gas cloud wouldn't have set them on fire? (it wasn't tested without a sack… maybe the sack did help, maybe it didn't)

If you really want to prevent a wheel fire from spreading, your best option is getting the wheel into a barrel of water at the first sign of trouble. Or put it in the fireplace with a 1/4" thick steel door and the damper open and hope it doesn't start a chimney fire.

Fortunately it appears that the developer is doing the right thing and refunding, he didn't actually have to do that. The company could easily have been dissolved and simply disappeared. No EUC manufacturer has allowed blanket return of their product when problems are discovered, right? If your Master breaks in half with Clark fairings installed do you expect a refund?

When you wonder why our wheels are made by companies that are outside the reach of our consumer protection laws, this is why.

Edited September 29, 2022 by Tawpie

[enaon]

I feel bad about asking this because I know some are friends with Ginger. 

There is a video of him placing the bag, with a burning battery inside, inside his car. 

to the best of your knowledge, how many degrees in celcius was the bottom of this bag, when touching the back seat?