bracky72 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 He never performed even one proper test before he decided to sell these bags in bulk to the community. What more is there to say? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
360rumors Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 34 minutes ago, Tawpie said: Let's try not to get on too high a horse here. The developer IN MY OPINION, made a good faith effort to bring something to the community that he believed, and that his testing indicated would be helpful in the event of a fire. Was his testing 100%? No. Did his adverts leave room for us to imagine performance beyond the product's actual real-life capabilities? Perhaps or even yes. But I see no malice here. I haven't fire tested my storage solution at all, has anyone tested theirs? I know we aren't selling our designs and that's another step, but honestly, what do you really think will really happen? I fully expect mine to burn to the ground unless the fire department was already lounging at the beach (they do that… take the truck out for a drive and hang at the beach). Hopefully everyone understands that an energetic chemical fire is exceptionally difficult to control and won't be surprised at the result. I personally never believed Firesak or anything short of a firebrick lined blockhouse would prevent a Li Ion fire from spreading (and even then…), obviously others did. Without the sack, do we know that the 20 foot clearance to the shrubbery would have been sufficient and flying cells or the pre-ignition gas cloud wouldn't have set them on fire? (it wasn't tested without a sack… maybe the sack did help, maybe it didn't) If you really want to prevent a wheel fire from spreading, your best option is getting the wheel into a barrel of water at the first sign of trouble. Or put it in the fireplace with a 1/4" thick steel door and the damper open and hope it doesn't start a chimney fire. Fortunately it appears that the developer is doing the right thing and refunding, he didn't actually have to do that. The company could easily have been dissolved and simply disappeared. No EUC manufacturer has allowed blanket return of their product when problems are discovered, right? If your Master breaks in half with Clark fairings installed do you expect a refund? When you wonder why our wheels are made by companies that are outside the reach of our consumer protection laws, this is why. I also believe he was acting in good faith. As for putting the wheel in a barrel of water, I store my wheel in a steel trash can. If it ignites there is a hose beside it and i just fill the can with water. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) I didn't say that his intentions wasn't good or otherwise.. Anyone who tries to protect people houses from fire are good in my book. He simply more or less blindly sold them. < That annoys/bugs me the wrong way. 18 minutes ago, 360rumors said: As for putting the wheel in a barrel of water, I store my wheel in a steel trash can. If it ignites there is a hose beside it and i just fill the can with water. Good luck filling that trashcan while wheel burns. Maybe the wheel will be underwater before the second pack ignites. Worst case - the first pack has already exploded. Best case - you catch it smoking and fill the trashcan enough that wheel is under water and nothing happens. Have you tried filling it without the wheel? How long did it take? My guess well over 1 min. < Imagine what happened in video at your place, till you fill it enough. You need 2 trashcans, one already full of water. So you don't waste any second if something goes wrong. In fires every second may save or lose a life. Edited September 29, 2022 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eucner Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 25 minutes ago, bracky72 said: What more is there to say? In the EU that would have been a fraud. Actually few was sold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoGeorgeGo Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 29 minutes ago, Eucner said: In the EU that would have been a fraud. Actually few was sold. its a tough call to say it was fraud. however, i will say specifically because of the video of the bag in the car being driven around with a burning wheel inside, the marketing was extremely misleading. while i absolutely believe ginger was acting in good faith to develop and sell a product that genuinely works, the execution was just not where it needs to be. And for something as serious as fire protections, extreme measure need to be taken in testing. that gets extremely expensive quickly. you also need to be careful how you market your product, showing yourself with a fire driving in your car is very misleading and would certainly be used against him in any type of lawsuit that may arise. i had the same idea several months before ginger developed his product. however, it proved to be a "failure" in my eyes. our prototype failed out test horribley (i just used flares to simulate a battery fire). upon the very first failure i realized the concept would cost me far far faaaar more than i could realistically afford to dump into and even raise. your talking at the low end, thousands on materials, tens of thousands on materials testing, thousands on certifications, tens of thousands on a buisness insurance for fire products, thousands for a decent marketing/buisness lawyer. on the low end an idea like this will cost 50k-100k$ to properly develop. i truely wanted his product to work. thats why we brought it in the first place thinking if things got hot, the bag would protect us and the surrounding area so nothing bad would happen. i was under the impression that ginger had just found a much much better material than the welding blankets my testing was conducted with. but it turns out the material wasnt that much better, and the real failure points are the zippers and velcro. perhaps, and this is a big perhaps as i do not advise anyone that doesnt have a large financial backing to continue with this endeavour, but perhaps had the velcro and zippers hadnt failed. if there was a way to really prevent the oxygen getting in. maybe it could still work with that material. it held up somewhat decently under the circumstances but there way just way to much air fueling the flames. it needs a metal airtight seal of some sort. like a clamp on piece that cover the whole top and prevents the air exchange happening. if it can just survive the first cell exploding, the lack of oxygen might keep the fire cold enough to prevent the others from catching. just a theory though, hard to say how it would really play out 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bracky72 Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 It needs a pressure relief otherwise it’s a glorified pipebomb. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plentora Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) Could it be that Firesak (or other such closed container) actually makes things worse? It contains all the heat and burning material inside (well until it lasts) making the fire more concentrated and igniting the cells in shorter times? Edited September 29, 2022 by plentora Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eucner Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said: its a tough call to say it was fraud. It is tough, but quite accurate definition. The fire sack was not tested as required by the law before put on the market. It gave false sense of security, when lives could have been in danger and there was possibility to significant property damage. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eucner Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 minute ago, plentora said: Could it be that Firesak actually makes things worse? It contains all the heat and burning material inside (well until it lasts) making the fire more concentrated and igniting the cells in shorter times? Yes and no. It could cook batteries faster and make stronger flame thrower, but it restricts hot batteries flying around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plentora Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 Just now, Eucner said: Yes and no. It could cook batteries faster and make stronger flame thrower, but it restricts hot batteries flying around. That way there would be possiblity that atleast some material doesn't burn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 6 minutes ago, Eucner said: The fire sack was not tested as required by the law Which law? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeforester Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 35 minutes ago, Eucner said: It is tough, but quite accurate definition. The fire sack was not tested as required by the law before put on the market. It gave false sense of security, when lives could have been in danger and there was possibility to significant property damage. It might be equally accurate to describe the content piece as you do the fire sack, ie not tested by the law before put on the market. Two wrongs a right do not make, for sure, but just pointing out the faint wisp of hypocrisy here - we’re not living in a Utiopian world, but perhaps the fire sack could be offered for ‘mitigation’ rather than litigation purposes. Had any, ANY of our wheels been given the same level of testing ‘as required by the law’ (more properly by the relevant safety testing authorities within each jurisdiction) then we wouldn’t have a forum. Just sayin’. 🤔 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robse Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 2 months ago I was about to buy the Firesak. Even send a mail to find out where in Europe the item was for sale, and got an nice answer . Later, however, I came to the conclusion that the Firesak would not be of any help to me if it were placed indoors - due to the heavy development of toxic smoke. That's why I never bought one (or more) but instead built my own outdoor storage box. (which I also don't know for sure will work as I hope, but at least it will happen outdoors and we'll be safe) I don't think it was the inventor's intention to harm anyone - they themselves believed in their product. But it is also not good when others choose to believe in the product on the basis of a completely inadequate test. Now I see that the product is still for sale in Europe... hmmnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 I didn't read anywhere on the webpage that says the FireSak is fire proof. It did say it is made of fire resistant material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoGeorgeGo Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 8 minutes ago, techyiam said: I didn't read anywhere on the webpage that says the FireSak is fire proof. It did say it is made of fire resistant material. i think the biggest misleading piece of marketing is putting the bag in his car while on fire still. that really for me anyways made me think wow this product is actually like fireproof. nobody in their right mind would attempt that with a flame retardent product 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techyiam Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said: i think the biggest misleading piece of marketing is putting the bag in his car while on fire still. that really for me anyways made me think wow this product is actually like fireproof. nobody in their right mind would attempt that with a flame retardent product Perhaps they should not have shared that segment of the video. Having said that, was that segment of video staged, or was it an outcome of an unexpected set of circumstances? Edited September 29, 2022 by techyiam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 27 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said: i think the biggest misleading piece of marketing is putting the bag in his car while on fire still. that really for me anyways made me think wow this product is actually like fireproof. nobody in their right mind would attempt that with a flame retardent product He mostly did that, because he was asked (i can imagine very politely.) to move somewhere else with his "experiments". Don't really remember was it a farmer or something. I guess he was running those "tests" on a private land or something. Also the fire was already over.. I guess the leftovers of battery was still smoking. As for real firesak - you need something strong enough, that will take most of the explosion impact. And same time won't fall apart, while flames/gasses escape the enclosure. As for protection of surroundings from the hot, hot enclosure. You need to insulate it in pretty thick non flammable A1 grade material. As you mentioned best option would be letting the flames/gases vent somewhere outside. Doh you would need pretty big/strong vent, so it won't fall apart from all the hot temperature/pressure. People who live in small apartments, (like me) have the worst option for fire safe storage. Even after i built the "Hot Box" - i can only hope the thermal runaway will happen slowly, not like in your video igniting all cells the same time.. It's really sad, that we need to worry about these wonderful devices... Edited September 29, 2022 by Funky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iCafe Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 The way I see it, Firesac-made material was ok, fireproof, in one piece after all. The problem is bad construction, lot of zippers and openings, in fact it was build as a stove. A big heavy welding blanket would do a better job, to eliminate fireworks and reduce oxigene supply. We did some testing with simple fiberglass pouch, check isthereanyfood on youtube. (Please, chill, do not jump on me, have nothing you to sell, not yet ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 minute ago, iCafe said: and reduce oxigene supply. please stop saying that, lithium batteries do not need oxygen, it is a chemical fire. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GoGeorgeGo Posted September 29, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, enaon said: please stop saying that, lithium batteries do not need oxygen, it is a chemical fire. the initial explosion doesnt but the fire it leaves behind does. so like in my video, you can see after the initial explosion, the euc stays on fire for about 4 minutes probably burning plastic and the rubber etc before the second packs goes. presumptively, had the fire been under control there is a chance the temperature never gets high enough to set off the second pack. which in this case the second pack was even bigger explosion than the first. there is also a chance that the initial explosion doesnt start exterior fires as the flame contact is so quick only the most flammable objects like clothes and paper will ignite. but the prolonged fire from the wheel parts last long enough to light something like a chair or a table or something on fire. Edited September 29, 2022 by GoGeorgeGo 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) ok, but the aim it to have a few seconds to move the wheel out, I think it cannot be done, but lets debate for the debating shake. But lets not talk about solutions to contain the fire inside anything within the house for more that a few seconds, this is not really funny. Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iCafe Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 6 minutes ago, enaon said: please stop saying that, lithium batteries do not need oxygen, it is a chemical fire. Lithium fire is about 5-10min, the rest of Go George video is about open fireplace in a wild. Imagine heavy fireblanket over. Without oxigene, will be over very soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 1 minute ago, iCafe said: Lithium fire is about 5-10min, the rest of Go George video is about open fireplace in a wild. Imagine heavy fireblanket over. Without oxigene, will be over very soon. have you seen the video? Is there a point talking about containing anything after the first explosion, that needs no oxygen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) anyway, this needs proactive measures, fix your wheels, recall all packs that are known to have problems like ewheels did, and get over the firesak/firebox/firewhatever idea, no money to be made on this in Europe, friendly advice. Edited September 29, 2022 by enaon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iCafe Posted September 29, 2022 Share Posted September 29, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, enaon said: have you seen the video? Is there a point talking about containing anything after the first explosion, that needs no oxygen? Chill. UPS, DHL, FEDEX, all use battery transport bags of same material. The point is not to stop fire or save your batteries. The point is to contain explosions. To save the house (or airplane) from total disaster. Gases will find way out. Edited September 29, 2022 by iCafe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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