How does KS-16X acceleration rank relative to other EUCs?

[postbio]

Living in NYC, I don't really have a reason to hit +35mph (nor do I want to), but I like quick accelerations. 

I own a King Song 16X, but I'm thinking of getting the RS Torque.

How does the acceleration of the KS-16x compare to that RS HT and other EUCs?  

[Darrell Wesh]

7 hours ago, postbio said:

Living in NYC, I don't really have a reason to hit +35mph (nor do I want to), but I like quick accelerations. 

I own a King Song 16X, but I'm thinking of getting the RS Torque.

How does the acceleration of the KS-16x compare to that RS HT and other EUCs?  

I can tell you without even riding an RS that it’s going to be much faster on a flat road because it’s a 16 inch wheel vs an 18”. Uphill/hill climbing might change those dynamics though.  

Edited November 2, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[RetroThruster]

I'm not great at extracting all the torque out of a wheel (never even tried power pads) but I had the MSP-T and 16x, I bought the MSP-T in hopes of getting easier power than the 16x had to offer but it wasn't the case, it was really really close with moderate levels of rider input, in the end, I liked the way the 16x turned better and it seemed more comfortable, I didn't need the extra MPH the MSP had to offer, still miss my 16x to be honest.  Maybe think about the MCM5, it has easy acceleration that is just plain ole' fun to me, I doubt it will climb as steep as the 16x or MSP/RS but it sure is deceivingly torquey with that 14" wheel.

Edited November 2, 2020 by RetroThruster

[postbio]

12 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

I can tell you without even riding an RS that it’s going to be much faster on a flat road because it’s a 16 inch wheel vs an 18”. Uphill/hill climbing might change those dynamics though.  

I would agree if they have the same power output, coils, and software, but compared to the 16X, the RS torque may:

• have output greater power (RS with 2600 W vs. 16X with 2200 W, with potentially greater spikes and ceiling)
• has more coils (I'm assuming RS has far more, since it's advertised as the high torque version) 
• software may throw more current into coils (an important piece is current)

Curious too about acceleration from zero, mid-range acceleration, and high end acceleration. 

[postbio]

2 hours ago, RetroThruster said:

I'm not great at extracting all the torque out of a wheel (never even tried power pads) but I had the MSP-T and 16x, I bought the MSP-T in hopes of getting easier power than the 16x had to offer but it wasn't the case, it was really really close with moderate levels of rider input, in the end, I liked the way the 16x turned better and it seemed more comfortable, I didn't need the extra MPH the MSP had to offer, still miss my 16x to be honest.  Maybe think about the MCM5, it has easy acceleration that is just plain ole' fun to me, I doubt it will climb as steep as the 16x or MSP/RS but it sure is deceivingly torquey with that 14" wheel.

Thanks for your feedback -- very useful.

At the very least it means know that there's no clear difference at low end speeds and acceleration from zero, with added bonus of maneuverability.

You've convinced me to keep my 16X and wait for the newer models next year to see. Thank you. 

[mrelwood]

There’s indeed a crucial distinction between “the fastest acceleration” and “most effortless acceleration”, and they come from completely different specs. “Good acceleration” leaves too much room for interpretation.

 The smaller the outer tire diameter, the more effortless the acceleration is. Large pedals and firmware affect this a lot as well.

 The more power the motor can output, the faster it can be accelerated without an overlean. Motor power and the capabilities of the battery affect this the most, right after the rider’s own behavior.

[Rafal]

Up to 20mph 16x can keep up pace with MSP. For any speed above you need to be very gentle with 16x to not overpower it. If you slow, gentle rider 16x is for you. But if you taking about performance than Gotway or Veteran is a way to go.

[comp_2]

12 hours ago, RetroThruster said:

I'm not great at extracting all the torque out of a wheel (never even tried power pads) but I had the MSP-T and 16x, I bought the MSP-T in hopes of getting easier power than the 16x had to offer but it wasn't the case, it was really really close with moderate levels of rider input, in the end, I liked the way the 16x turned better and it seemed more comfortable, I didn't need the extra MPH the MSP had to offer, still miss my 16x to be honest.  Maybe think about the MCM5, it has easy acceleration that is just plain ole' fun to me, I doubt it will climb as steep as the 16x or MSP/RS but it sure is deceivingly torquey with that 14" wheel.

Is the MCM5 a pretty stable wheel?

[comp_2]

I learned to ride on a Kingsong 16S and recently received the RS19 high speed.  It's definitely not as "zippy" as I expected it to be.  And it's heavy.  But it is stable and I never feel like I'm going to overpower it.  At the end, the 16S was always telling me to "please decelerate".  Another thing I noticed about the RS19 is that the braking isn't as good (or at least doesn't feel as good) as the 16S.  Maybe after a few more years of technological advancement, there will be a smaller, lighter wheel with the power and range of a today's large wheels.  Let's hope at least some manufacturers appreciate the value of a lighter, more nimble wheel.

[mrelwood]

20 hours ago, comp_2 said:

It's definitely not as "zippy" as I expected it to be.

I felt exactly the same way when receiving the MSX after the 16S. The MSX required much more physical movement from me, so the riding event was quite different. Despite eventually loving the new riding style even more, I think this unavoidable feature was probably the main reason for the success of the 16”x3” EUCs.

 But I agree, small and powerful 16”x2.5” EUCs would definitely still have a place in the markets. Sized and weighed between the 16S and the V10F. For example Tesla 16x2.5”. Fitted with even a small amount of suspension travel would make even me wanting to upgrade my spare wheel!

[bracky72]

On 11/3/2020 at 7:16 AM, comp_2 said:

Is the MCM5 a pretty stable wheel?

It’s nimble but stable.  It is very responsive. I enjoy riding it off-road because it takes so little effort to power over obstacles and up hills.

[Mike Sacristan]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:55 AM, postbio said:

Living in NYC, I don't really have a reason to hit +35mph (nor do I want to), but I like quick accelerations. 

I own a King Song 16X, but I'm thinking of getting the RS Torque.

How does the acceleration of the KS-16x compare to that RS HT and other EUCs?  

The 16X is very unique with it's tyre diameter and motor power. It gives it a rather effortless feeling especially compared to Gotway 18" wheels.
Kingsong tuning is different and an 18XL will also feel effortless compared to an MSP HT or RS. 

However... Gotway wheels do have the potential for faster and harder accelerations simply because they are more powerful.
Physics will be the limiting factor so power pads, karambits, etc are pretty much a requirement.

I would be hard pressed to choose a torque model if I already owned a 16X. I would rather go for the speed model.
The riding style and amount of leaning on a Gotway compared to a Kingsong is rather insane though haha.

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, Mike Sacristan said:

I would be hard pressed to choose a torque model if I already owned a 16X. I would rather go for the speed model.

Surprising. After all aren’t the torque GotWays still relatively easily doing 60km/h, while I’ve gathered that the 16X starts to be a bit on a thin ice after 40km/h (GPS, not app)? That’s a huge difference.

Edited November 4, 2020 by mrelwood

[meepmeepmayer]

How is the Nikola vs. the 16X? Does one of the two feel more torque-y? I shortly tried a 16X and it felt very top-heavy and delayed and you needed to move to brake (mind you I'm coming from an ACM which is super reactive and probably closer to the MCM5 than any other wheel).

This topic convinced me I want a 14x3 or 15x3 wheel (probably 15.5x3 or 16.5x3 in reality) with a huge battery. All these lots-of-lean-needed wheels aren't for me. Effortless crazy torque please.

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Surprising. After all aren’t the torque GotWays still relatively easily doing 60km/h, while I’ve gathered that the 16X starts to be a bit on a thin ice after 40km/h (GPS, not app)? That’s a huge difference.

I always rode my 16X at 50kmh and also the speed on mine was correct (matched with a Tesla, Nikola, MSX).
The MSP HT 5 beeps are at 58 kmh although one day I did some calculations and testing and got it up to 64 kmh a couple of times.
The MSP HT gets up to the 5 beeps quite easily... same curse as the 16X.
The MSP HS on the other hand just seems to go on and on and on and somewhere around 65 kmh I run out of balls. And still not a beep to  be heard.

[Mike Sacristan]

7 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How is the Nikola vs. the 16X? Does one of the two feel more torque-y? I shortly tried a 16X and it felt very top-heavy and delayed and you needed to move to brake (mind you I'm coming from an ACM which is super reactive and probably closer to the MCM5 than any other wheel).

This topic convinced me I want a 14x3 or 15x3 wheel (probably 15.5x3 or 16.5x3 in reality) with a huge battery. All these lots-of-lean-needed wheels aren't for me. Effortless crazy torque please.

The 16X feels zippier but the Nikola feels more robust and solid.
The 16X and Nikola go up similar inclines although the Nikola might grunt and pedal dip on the softer modes but the 16X might just sound it's amp alarm.
Or blow a fuse.
Coming from an ACM I understand you 100%! The ACM is such a lovely zippy wheel that behaves just like an EUC.
The bigger wheels turn into something else and more and more like a one-wheeled motorcycle. Gotway in particular.
The Nikola require quite a bit more body movement to get going compared to a 16X but it also feels very safe at 50kmh and above.
The Nikola Plus at 20% battery is still safer than a 16X at full battery.  

The best I could do was a 2664Wh Nikola. 29.5kg of fatass wheel. Crazy range and speed. Some nice pads. And now my MSX feels nimble in comparison haha.
And everything else like a sketchy toy/death trap.

[meepmeepmayer]

Thank you Mike!

So I thought tire diameter beats everything else, but I guess weight distribution also matters a lot if you say the MSX feels nimbler than your (lovely, lovely, lovely 2700Wh) Nik.

That makes me think the V11 might be the torque king among the 18 inchers? The battery weight seems as close to the axle (center of rotation) as it can be on the V11.

[My main concern isn't accelerating or mountain climbing, I just dislike if you need to put in a lot of effort to brake (think step downhill, but also in general).]

27 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The ACM is such a lovely zippy wheel that behaves just like an EUC.

Missing word there?

[Mike Sacristan]

15 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Thank you Mike!

So I thought tire diameter beats everything else, but I guess weight distribution also matters a lot if you say the MSX feels nimbler than your (lovely, lovely, lovely 2700Wh) Nik.

That makes me think the V11 might be the torque king among the 18 inchers? The battery weight seems as close to the axle (center of rotation) as it can be on the V11.

[My main concern isn't accelerating or mountain climbing, I just dislike if you need to put in a lot of effort to brake (think step downhill, but also in general).]

My pleasure! Weight matters a bit. The Nikola does climbs easier than the MSX and the MSP. But the MSX being lighter is easier to do direction changes with.

16 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

  46 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

The ACM is such a lovely zippy wheel that behaves just like an EUC.

15 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Missing word there?

One could think so haha. Originally EUCs felt like riding a nimble mind reading wheel.
Then they turned into one wheeled motorcycles.

So.. the ACM behaves like the traditional EUCs we were once used to. The newer, bigger, heavier wheels less so. But we adapt!

 

[RetroThruster]

On 11/3/2020 at 7:16 AM, comp_2 said:

Is the MCM5 a pretty stable wheel?

For me it is, I accelerate briskly often up to 24mph and it's stable as can be.  At our local river walk here, I spent a few miles at high speeds (20-24mph) on mostly level ground  and it was solid, I felt like I could go faster but I didn't want to push it too much, only wobbles I got was under hard braking but that's my being lazy, never any concern of crashing or losing control.

[Darrell Wesh]

A bald stock CST Nikola tire feels exactly like a Z10 but on steroids. It’s so great, I’m sad to see this one is down to the cords and I have to put on a new piece of crap tire. New tires are not as fun as worn on the street for carving. 

[Mike Sacristan]

9 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

A bald stock CST Nikola tire feels exactly like a Z10 but on steroids. It’s so great, I’m sad to see this one is down to the cords and I have to put on a new piece of crap tire. New tires are not as fun as worn on the street for carving. 

Yay! Finally someone who knows. I have 6500km on my Nikola tyre. Yesterday I examined it and I saw 2 faint lines in the rubber which is the first indication of the cords being visible. As you say it is very fun for street carving and I found the grip to great on both wet and dry asphalt. I have people almost yelling at me that the tire is going to EXPLODE hahaha. Slicks rule!

I am considering putting on my 50km old CX-321 tyre on it. That is the one that was used on the first batch 16X. King of gyro and tramlining.

[meepmeepmayer]

Maybe somewhere there are "racing" tires with little or no rubber profile?

[comp_2]

On 11/4/2020 at 3:12 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

The bigger wheels turn into something else and more and more like a one-wheeled motorcycle. Gotway in particular.

Gotway = 1 wheeled motorcycle?  Yes!  And a pretty big and heavy motorcycle at that.

[Scottie]

On 11/4/2020 at 9:02 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

The 16X is very unique with it's tyre diameter and motor power. It gives it a rather effortless feeling especially compared to Gotway 18" wheels.
Kingsong tuning is different and an 18XL will also feel effortless compared to an MSP HT or RS.

Agree.

[RetroThruster]

All this talk about the 16x is really making me consider swapping my RS-T deposit to a 16x, I just felt comfortable on the 16x, maybe because it was the wheel that I learned on...