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Yikes, that 45 degree lean cut-off is unfriendly!


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I’m glad I saw this before I tried my MSP on the local BMX track!

I’m too stupid to understand how the wheel knows it’s at a 45 degree angle with the forces involved going around a banked bend, but I’m in no hurry to experience it myself.

I guess there’s no mitigation for this? Just don’t do banked turns I guess...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Aleksandr Dolgov said:

btw, checked my ks18l - behaved the same

all wheels made after the msuper v3s+/original acm/mcm4 cant remember which one lol but all wheels do it now its so your wheel doesnt take off when you drop it its a safety feature..... though its supposed to happen AFTER your pedals hit the ground so its impossible to happen while riding..... this just seems like a horrible oversight on the msp since it has the highly angled pedals, should have been made 60 degrees+

edit: luckily for those of us in north america ewheels provides the mss/msp with grinded nikola pedals at a lesser angle so it should be near impossible to cutout... i think he must have also been on an angled surface too because this is not something you hear about happening often at all, try it on your wheel it should only cut off after the angle in which the pedal hits

Edited by Rywokast
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47 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

all wheels made after the msuper v3s+/original acm/mcm4 cant remember which one lol but all wheels do it now its so your wheel doesnt take off when you drop it its a safety feature..... though its supposed to happen AFTER your pedals hit the ground so its impossible to happen while riding..... this just seems like a horrible oversight on the msp since it has the highly angled pedals, should have been made 60 degrees+

edit: luckily for those of us in north america ewheels provides the mss/msp with grinded nikola pedals at a lesser angle so it should be near impossible to cutout... i think he must have also been on an angled surface too because this is not something you hear about happening often at all, try it on your wheel it should only cut off after the angle in which the pedal hits

Absolutely wouldn’t happen on a flat surface, I tested it and the pedals hit the ground very firmly before cutoff. But on a banked turn it would be really easy to hit 45 degrees. 

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19 minutes ago, Marc Roberts said:

Absolutely wouldn’t happen on a flat surface, I tested it and the pedals hit the ground very firmly before cutoff. But on a banked turn it would be really easy to hit 45 degrees. 

yes, this is a problem... why does the cut off have to come at ~45 degrees?? it should be made much steeper at an angle that would be near impossible to ever achieve while riding like 80 degrees... its instantaneous so its not like even at 80 degrees there would be a risk of your wheel doing the gotway dance... 

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2 hours ago, Rywokast said:

safety feature....

pretty much useless i d say

when i make a sudden stop on a steep descent, and msp falls on a side while i am catching it,  the wheel keeps spinning until it hits speed limit cutfoff (looks like the controller thinks it is still oriented vertically enough lol)

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19 minutes ago, Aleksandr Dolgov said:

pretty much useless i d say

when i make a sudden stop on a steep descent, and msp falls on a side while i am catching it,  the wheel keeps spinning until it hits speed limit cutfoff (looks like the controller thinks it is still oriented vertically enough lol)

well the way they have implemented it is half assed... it should be a steeper angle and be conditional in that it must detect no load before shutting off... however many peoples ankles and shell integrity have been saved because of this feature lol, for the majority of users its never any issue.. but still, a feature should not ever be an issue for any user!

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Looks odd. Does notnlook like 45° from the video. Anf the fall is very "short" so it doesnt seem to go that fast and without high speed its kinda hard to reach 45° (unless forced slow speed grind). Could it be that the pedal snagged  somethinf or there was a soft gravel pit?

Still the instaneousness sure looks like a cutout...but for sure a "faulty one".

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5 hours ago, Boogieman said:

Looks odd. Does notnlook like 45° from the video. Anf the fall is very "short" so it doesnt seem to go that fast and without high speed its kinda hard to reach 45° (unless forced slow speed grind). Could it be that the pedal snagged  somethinf or there was a soft gravel pit?

Still the instaneousness sure looks like a cutout...but for sure a "faulty one".

I managed to get a freeze frame and it looks bang on 45 from that, then it just falls forward. He has a video of the exact same thing on MSX where he complains quite a lot about it 

 

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10 hours ago, Rywokast said:

Most modern wheels have a lean cut out and I totally agree that they have them. I'm simply saying that there's no way for the wheel to know that it's leaning if it's going around a "wall of death" - if you had your eyes shut then there's no way you'd be able to tell that you were leaning over either.  Motorcycles have automatic fuel cut offs to stop the bikes feeding fuel to the engine after an accident - it doesn't stop them doing the wall of death. 

Chooch is obviously a brilliant rider but you can fall for all sorts of reasons other than a cut out while riding fast off road. It could equally of been the wheel digging into softer earth and turning slightly or maybe he just wasn't going fast enough to complete the turn. Chooch was riding at a similar angle earlier in the video and had no problems then. It also seems odd that a rider of Chooch's skill would even attempt the banked turn if he thought the wheel might cut out due to the lean.

There is a concrete bmx track near me and it has a wall of death but sadly my skill levels are pretty poor so I'm not sure what it would prove if I tried it. In that other thread I gave a very simple experiment that you can try at home with your phone and it shows that gravity does not point down in a turn (for you or for modern electronics). Similarly there's no way the wheel would know it was leaning over while doing the wall of death.

 

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13 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Most modern wheels have a lean cut out and I totally agree that they have them. I'm simply saying that there's no way for the wheel to know that it's leaning if it's going around a "wall of death" - if you had your eyes shut then there's no way you'd be able to tell that you were leaning over either.  Motorcycles have automatic fuel cut offs to stop the bikes feeding fuel to the engine after an accident - it doesn't stop them doing the wall of death. 

Chooch is obviously a brilliant rider but you can fall for all sorts of reasons other than a cut out while riding fast off road. It could equally of been the wheel digging into softer earth and turning slightly or maybe he just wasn't going fast enough to complete the turn. Chooch was riding at a similar angle earlier in the video and had no problems then. It also seems odd that a rider of Chooch's skill would even attempt the banked turn if he thought the wheel might cut out due to the lean.

There is a concrete bmx track near me and it has a wall of death but sadly my skill levels are pretty poor so I'm not sure what it would prove if I tried it. In that other thread I gave a very simple experiment that you can try at home with your phone and it shows that gravity does not point down in a turn (for you or for modern electronics). Similarly there's no way the wheel would know it was leaning over while doing the wall of death.

oh they know 

 

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1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Most modern wheels have a lean cut out and I totally agree that they have them. I'm simply saying that there's no way for the wheel to know that it's leaning if it's going around a "wall of death" - if you had your eyes shut then there's no way you'd be able to tell that you were leaning over either.  Motorcycles have automatic fuel cut offs to stop the bikes feeding fuel to the engine after an accident - it doesn't stop them doing the wall of death. 

Chooch is obviously a brilliant rider but you can fall for all sorts of reasons other than a cut out while riding fast off road. It could equally of been the wheel digging into softer earth and turning slightly or maybe he just wasn't going fast enough to complete the turn. Chooch was riding at a similar angle earlier in the video and had no problems then. It also seems odd that a rider of Chooch's skill would even attempt the banked turn if he thought the wheel might cut out due to the lean.

There is a concrete bmx track near me and it has a wall of death but sadly my skill levels are pretty poor so I'm not sure what it would prove if I tried it. In that other thread I gave a very simple experiment that you can try at home with your phone and it shows that gravity does not point down in a turn (for you or for modern electronics). Similarly there's no way the wheel would know it was leaning over while doing the wall of death.

 

I agree with your theory, hence my comment in the original post, but clearly somehow they do know and this does happen, to Chooch, on a number of occasions as recorded on his channel 🤷

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38 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps they detect the lean using feng shui because I can't see how science or electronics are going to help ;)

i dont know either lol but i have seen it happen numerous times on different wheels so they clearly somehow know regardless of speed... if anyone would know it it would be chooch haha, im sure hes ridden thousands of km on terrain like this

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Man, you look smooth as melted butter riding that wheel at speed, and on such an awesome course. And here I am still just barely wobbling through the curves on my local schoolyard. I am so envious right now ...

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On 6/9/2020 at 10:52 PM, Rywokast said:

edit: luckily for those of us in north america ewheels provides the mss/msp with grinded nikola pedals at a lesser angle so it should be near impossible to cutout... i think he must have also been on an angled surface too because this is not something you hear about happening often at all, try it on your wheel it should only cut off after the angle in which the pedal hits

I would never prefer "flat pedals" for safety. Problem with straight (low ground clearance) pedals is that they snag EVERYTHING when pushing the wheel.

I have had my share of falls and i would say 80% are due to my Tesla pedals snagging either:

- Roots & stones & holes in terrain... This throws you right off (i need hip protectors LOL, my last hip cake didnt go away until i got the next)

- Uneven pavement (aka holes) or lines of "decorative" stone when paved road. More often than not this doesnt throw you off though, it just flicks the wheel and makes Your heart raise...causing you to go either wobbly or into an extra sharp turn shortly until you wiggle your way back to control. Normally happens around 35-40km/h in sharp turns when pushing it to corner (not 45° on flat obviously..Tesla does cut when it falls so i think it has the 45° "safety feature" too.).

Best mod i ever made was to shim my pedals up to MSX style angle.. maybe a tiny bit more (about to make a more permanent mod as my old one fell off, glued aluminum wedges with metal loctite to pedal fastening. Lasted a few days). Suddenly i could push it without any metal scraping sound. It even required some effort to slow speed grind :-)

You dont only gain ground clearance with angle but also feel a lot more in Control, probably since youre ankles constantly pushed against the frame (kuji pads in my case) without thinking of it or the foot angle...no clue... But I'm never going flat again

 

hmb4PMx.jpg

Edited by Boogieman
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If that's the angle on the picture of how you ride, I wonder how long an ankle should last?:confused1:

Either:

- are you bullshitting us? 

- You're not going more than 5 km at a time? 

- your ankles are already defective? 

- you are just stupid? ;)

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2 hours ago, Boogieman said:

hmb4PMx.jpg

holy shit... looks comfortable lol.. i would personally prefer to have the use of my feet in ten years but whatever floats your boat xD

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As I understand it, the cutoff angle is a tradeoff between an accidental cutout and an out-of-control wheel that has excessive death-roll when you fall off. I seem to remember that @EUC Extreme , one of the forum old-timers, had a special Gotway wheel that had a 75 degree cutoff.  I think this is one of the videos of that.

 

 

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I learned that in the painful way. There is a big difference between the 55° and the 45° cutoff angle of my v10f and my monster. You can see the enlightenment moment in this video (not for YouTube please)

https://t.me/ElectrociclosArgon/80

Also there are several videos trying wall of dead and comparing the cutoff angle of my wheels. Come and subscribe to my Telegram channel

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On 6/11/2020 at 11:24 PM, buell47 said:

If that's the angle on the picture of how you ride, I wonder how long an ankle should last?:confused1:

Either:

- are you bullshitting us? 

- You're not going more than 5 km at a time? 

- your ankles are already defective? 

- you are just stupid? ;)

Neither of above. Allways hit the 80% beep and in curves i push it till wobble sets in(depends on tightness of curve but around 35-40km/h) Wobble with angled pedals was alllost gone compared to flat so i could push it harder.

I thought exactly what You say before i tested it (except the patronising part) but when i stepped up and rolled away, the only thing that was painful was that my extremely wide feet had problem to fit thw width of the pedal (pinkie hanging outside pedal) but the control was second to none compare to flat pedals that tesla runs standard.

So no, no bullshit. I am making a more permanent mod. This was aluminium shims glued with loctite and only lasted a few days. But i would never want flat pedals ever again.

 

Only defective things in my feet area is a broken big toe (or rather its only 2 small cracks that are still healing...but no major discomfort as long as I don't kick a chair) and a few other toes that i sprained / got small cracks in that should be fine now. And some other broken bones inside the foot that healed up years ago. Biggest issue is the extreme width of my feet compared to my 46 shoe size. Its wide as a size 50 HAHAHA

Besides the angle was taken unloaded. It will for sure drop a little when i step up.

The intention is to make the angle adjustable with different amount of inset lf the shims (that probably will be wedge shaped like my trial pieces...not sure,they are so thin (2mm, trying to fit 3mm) they will probably be hammered to the correct wedge shape in a matter of hours anyway :-) )

Edited by Boogieman
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