electric unicycle suitable to take on a plane

[AtlasP]

[Split from this mten3 discussion]

On 12/15/2019 at 8:04 AM, Jason McNeil said:

We're not likely to see an modular battery MTen3 in the foreseeable future—KS, GW, IM don't believe there's a large enough market for the development cost of this type of machine. 

This is the single-most-damning indictment of KS/GW/IM's business-decision-making--certainly the most infuriating--I've seen yet. Maybe I'm just warped as a million-mile+ frequent-flier, but air-travel-ability is a *huge* feature.

• I've heard a *lot* of esk8 and OneWheel Pint owners say they chose those options over other PEV categories specifically because of air-travel-ability.
• This would also open up a market for battery upgrades where they could sell higher-quality wheels with lower-capacity 'starter' batteries for people as a better first wheel, and then turn around and sell those people a simple drop-in battery upgrade (either a replacement or additional packs if modular) when they inevitably decide they need more range 3 months later.
• Long-term it would also open up the market for battery rental--another solution to the air-travel problem--so you could fly with a device sans battery and then rent a battery at your destination. While EUCs by themselves might be too niche for this, imagine if multiple types of scooters/esk8/EUCs/etc standardized to some common format to be able to do this.

Ultimately I would say a modular battery solution would be far more useful than voltages-over-100 or any of the other moar-bigger-number-type feature suggestions/requests everyone discusses.

Edited December 17, 2019 by AtlasP

[Cory Brown]

2 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

This is the single-most-damning indictment of KS/GW/IM's business-decision-making--certainly the most infuriating--I've seen yet. Maybe I'm just warped as a million-mile+ frequent-flier, but air-travel-ability is a *huge* feature.

• I've heard a *lot* of esk8 and OneWheel Pint owners say they chose those over other PEVs *because* of air-travel-ability.
• This would also open up a market for battery upgrades where they could sell higher-quality wheels with lower-capacity 'starter' batteries for people as a better first wheel, and then turn around and sell those people a battery upgrade (either a replacement or additional packs if modular) when they inevitably decide they need more range 3 months later.
• Long-term it would also open up the market for battery rental--another solution to the air-travel problem--so you could fly with a device sans battery and then rent a battery at your destination. While EUCs by themselves might be too niche for this, imagine if multiple types of scooters/esk8/EUCs/etc standardized to some common format to be able to do this.

Ultimately I would say a modular battery solution would be far more useful than higher voltage or any of the other moar-bigger-number-type feature suggestions/requests everyone discusses.

Truth. I'm so sad I can't take my MCM5 with me when I go visit my family during the holidays.

[meepmeepmayer]

How often does the average person fly? How often does the average non-US person fly? Because the US is an outlier in air travel (lack of rail, other infrastructure may be less dense, subsidized small airports and routes, etc.).

I'm not surprised the (Chinese!) manufacturers do not currently see a market. I believe they are right (at this time). Removable batteries mean a slow, low-power wheel, these don't seem to be the ones that sell. Wheels that sell are either cheap (which such a specialist model might not be) or the powerhorses (which such a model can hardly be). Wasn't even the mten3 (or MCM5?) a non-success outside of the US? There was some info of that kind.

I wish the Uniwheel was still (or ever?) available. It has plane-suitable, removable battery packs. Then we'd know how much it sells. (edit: The website is still up - maybe just nobody bought one?)

Right now, I guess you have to ship the wheel to your destination.

I wonder how much developing such a wheel would cost a manufacturer.

Edited December 16, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Aneta]

3450mAh Sanyo GA 8s1p juuust flies under 100Wh "radar" (3.45*3.6*8 = 99.4Wh), so 4 such blocks would make a 16s2p (67V) 400Wh battery. Or 6 blocks for 24s2p (100V) 600Wh. It would be priceless for air travel! (although I believe @Marty Backe said before that TSA can stop you even if you follow the battery rules, and even if all you have is just an empty wheel! Marty, can you provide a specific example?)

[Marty Backe]

19 minutes ago, Aneta said:

3450mAh Sanyo GA 8s1p juuust flies under 100Wh "radar" (3.45*3.6*8 = 99.4Wh), so 4 such blocks would make a 16s2p (67V) 400Wh battery. Or 6 blocks for 24s2p (100V) 600Wh. It would be priceless for air travel! (although I believe @Marty Backe said before that TSA can stop you even if you follow the battery rules, and even if all you have is just an empty wheel! Marty, can you provide a specific example?)

This happened to @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer", who I ride with a lot. He had an empty wheel but the airline would still not accept it. I believe the wheel is still someplace in China 

There's too much discretion available to the airline employees. I think the only guaranteed means to transporting a wheel is via a shipper.

[Aneta]

20 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

This happened to @Jrkline "Wheel Whisperer", who I ride with a lot. He had an empty wheel but the airline would still not accept it. I believe the wheel is still someplace in China 

There's too much discretion available to the airline employees. I think the only guaranteed means to transporting a wheel is via a shipper.

He was flying from China with it? Well, China is China... but any such cases when flying within US or US->Europe and back? FAA rule is clearly spelled out - unlimited number of <100Wh packs, or max two of 160Wh packs. Print it out. TSA will not obey the FAA rule?!

[meepmeepmayer]

The airlines can transport or not transport whatever good they want. The rules simply say what they definitely cannot transport.

[AtlasP]

 

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

How often does the average person fly? How often does the average non-US person fly? Because the US is an outlier in air travel (lack of rail, other infrastructure may be less dense, subsidized small airports and routes, etc.).

I'm not surprised the (Chinese!) manufacturers do not currently see a market. I believe they are right (at this time). Removable batteries mean a slow, low-power wheel, these don't seem to be the ones that sell. Wheels that sell are either cheap (which such a specialist model might not be) or the powerhorses (which such a model can hardly be). Wasn't even the mten3 (or MCM5?) a non-success outside of the US? There was some info of that kind.

So many challengable premises here:

• I think the "Europeans take trains while Americans take planes" thing is somewhat outdated/overblown by 2019. Yes, trains in Europe are better than America and therefore see more use within a certain limited distance. But ultimately the aggressive budget airlines in Europe over the past decade+ have made air travel there far more common than a few decades prior, as flying is now often the same price or cheaper than a train while simultaneously being faster. I work conventions in Europe at least 5-10 times a year, and pretty much all my European colleagues and our clients only use trains if within a country/within a few hours train ride but otherwise then use flights the vast majority of the time. (We share rides to/from the airport, never the train station unless they live in that country/only a few hours away.)
• Why do removable batteries mean slow or low-power? There's no reason you couldn't build any of the current EUCs on the market with removable battery packs that contain the exact same number and configuration of li-on cells as now and therefore have the exact same performance characteristics.

Edited December 17, 2019 by AtlasP

[AtlasP]

 

1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

There's too much discretion available to the airline employees.

 

Quote

The airlines can transport or not transport whatever good they want. The rules simply say what they definitely cannot transport.

I agree with Marty. The issue isn't what the airline chooses they will or won't transport, but rather the variation/discretion of each individual airline employee about how they interpret and enforce airline rules. It makes it impossible to predict. You can read an airline's terms & conditions in text and/or call and get a direct answer to a question over the phone, and then some airline employee turns around and says the rule is different or enforces it differently when you get to the airport/plane.

I don't care what the rule is so much as I care about predictability and repeat-ability such that I can count on how the airline/airline employees will act when I attempt to make a particular trip with a particular item.

Edited December 16, 2019 by AtlasP

[Aneta]

How about building a pack from cells using a kit like Vruzend? Then you just need to transport a bunch of loose 18650's, and assemble the battery at your destination. Or spring-loaded battery holders. There are many examples on Endless Sphere of packs built without welding/soldering. To compensate for the possibility of open circuit due to high g-forces on a bump, having at least 3 parallels would be wise. (also, if cells lie in holders horizontally, it would greatly reduce chance of cells bouncing in the holders)

[AtlasP]

19 hours ago, Aneta said:

How about building a pack from cells using a kit like Vruzend? Then you just need to transport a bunch of loose 18650's, and assemble the battery at your destination. Or spring-loaded battery holders. There are many examples on Endless Sphere of packs built without welding/soldering. To compensate for the possibility of open circuit due to high g-forces on a bump, having at least 3 parallels would be wise. (also, if cells lie in holders horizontally, it would greatly reduce chance of cells bouncing in the holders)

What's the nicest/least-personal way to say that (old-school spring-loaded cartridges for individual 18650's) sounds like a terrible idea? :-)

I say just use individual 16s1p or 20s1p or 24s1p packs that connect with cable connectors not dissimilar from those already used to connect existing battery packs (with the little clicky-bit that prevents the connector from opening on its own/without prying the clicky-bit out).

Edited December 17, 2019 by AtlasP

[Unventor]

Well sorry I tend to be lazy at times. So I didn't read all posted here only saw the thread title.

The sad news is it is very difficult to get an EUC on a plane as practical all commercial airlines have signed a ban on pev (euc/hover boards and such) no matter battery size. This is to avoid discussion at check in. So any normal passenger plane is very unlikely to have an EUC onboard. Even with battery pack uninstalled. You can Google the signed document on this. Last version I saw was from late 2017 with 179 countries signed on.

[Aneta]

25 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

What's the nicest/least-personal way to say that sounds like a terrible idea? :-)

I say just use individual 16s1p or 20s1p or 24s1p packs that connect with cable connectors not dissimilar from those already used to connect existing battery packs (with the little clicky-bit that prevents the connector from opening on its own/without prying the clicky-bit out).

16, 20, 24s1p will not fit under 100Wh rule unless the cells used are low capacity (1700mAh for 16s, and correspondingly lower for 20s and 24s). Low capacity cells are not used in EUCs because their Wh/kg ratio sucks.

Two 160Wh packs is not a great option, either.

Grin Tech already has modular 100Wh packs, but they are bloody expensive ($140 for 10s1p with 2700mAh cells).

https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/batteries/36v-ligo-battery.html

[meepmeepmayer]

24 minutes ago, Unventor said:

The sad news is it is very difficult to get an EUC on a plane as practical all commercial airlines have signed a ban on pev (euc/hover boards and such) no matter battery size. This is to avoid discussion at check in. So any normal passenger plane is very unlikely to have an EUC onboard. Even with battery pack uninstalled. You can Google the signed document on this. Last version I saw was from late 2017 with 179 countries signed on.

Oh well... I guess that also means other battery types don't help?

54 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

I think the "Europeans take trains while Americans take planes" thing is somewhat outdated/overblown by 2019. Yes, trains in Europe are better than America and therefore see more use within a certain limited distance. But ultimately the aggressive budget airlines in Europe over the past decade+ have made air travel there far more common than a few decades prior, as flying is now often the same price or cheaper than a train while simultaneously being faster. I work conventions in Europe at least 5-10 times a year, and pretty much all my European colleagues and our clients only use trains if within a country/within a few hours train ride but otherwise then use flights the vast majority of the time. (We share rides to/from the airport, never the train station unless they live in that country/only a few hours away.)

You're completely right. But most people will fly a plane once a year or so. I was also simply thinking how often I fly a plane. Not often.

I'm not against such a wheel. If I had too much money, I'd build one just because I can, profitable or not. I'm just saying it sadly is no surprise that there is no such wheel Even if it is viable (it may very well be! I think it could be, especially if it is also a cheap beginner intro wheel), the money can be invested in more viable endeavors by the manufacturers. At least that's what they think.

54 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Why do removable batteries mean slow or low-power? This makes zero sense to me. There's no reason you couldn't build any of the current EUCs on the market with removable battery packs that contain the exact same number and configuration of li-on cells as now and therefore have the exact same performance characteristics.

You can't even have a single 16p pack under the magical 100Wh (ot whatever that number is) limit. So how many individual pieces of packs are realistically doable? You want to pockmark an empty shell with 24 plug-in 5cell (even 10 3500mAh cells is above 100Wh) pack-parts to transport a standard 1600Wh wheel?

So in theory, it's possible. In practice, it's dumb with the current limitations. A shitty battery size with 2 removable packs is the best realistic option. That means low speed, low safety, low range.

-

Also, removable packs mean the manufacturers need to add a mechanism that balances different voltages between the packs (or parts of packs). Extra effort they haven't done yet.

-

Just saying how I think it is. Not happy about this either

Edited December 17, 2019 by meepmeepmayer

[Aneta]

19 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Well sorry I tend to be lazy at times. So I didn't read all posted here only saw the thread title.

The sad news is it is very difficult to get an EUC on a plane as practical all commercial airlines have signed a ban on pev (euc/hover boards and such) no matter battery size. This is to avoid discussion at check in. So any normal passenger plane is very unlikely to have an EUC onboard. Even with battery pack uninstalled. You can Google the signed document on this. Last version I saw was from late 2017 with 179 countries signed on.

Interesting. Is Speedboard guy lying with this photo? 

 

[jonm42]

Why would someone bother lying if it can be so easily refuted? That really doesn't make sense to me.This is the founder and inventor. I tend to believe him.

[AtlasP]

I didn't realize the math on that, thanks for the clarification.

Aside from making the battery packs small enough to fly with, even just making the packs easily removable would make it much easier to remove and ship the battery separate from the entire wheel (which is much cheaper than shipping an entire wheel both by volume and weight). Alternatively, making wheels overall easier to open/access components would help both manufacturing costs as well as making them more serviceable to end users and of course helping with these more fringe cases of separating batteries for shipping.

[Aneta]

2 hours ago, jonm42 said:

Why would someone bother lying if it can be so easily refuted? That really doesn't make sense to me.This is the founder and inventor. I tend to believe him.

Exactly. That's why I was surprised to hear about "ban" mentioned above. Maybe, assembled hoverboards (that got bad reputation of frequently catching fire) got banned, but generally speaking, standalone battery packs under 100Wh should be ok? Grin Tech wouldn't be producing those 36V packs if they were certainly banned.

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, Aneta said:

Interesting. Is Speedboard guy lying with this photo? 

 

It is not a matter of lying. So might slip through or are better prepared and have pre-arranged a solution with a specific airline. This have been debated before on this forum. Since you are new here and the forum post are many I understand you might not have seen the previous references. 

Have a look at this: https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/small-lithium-battery-powered-vehicles.pdf

It is old and I have seen a 2017 version with even more airline signed one this. The 2017  version was a more or less class ban on hover boards like items, also hitting EUC. But if you want to bring it on a plane you better check with the airline and get it in written statement. Remember you might want to bring it back with you too so check the other way. 

Long story very short version: EUC on a plane is mission impossible. Some might succeed, most will not.

I wish I could take it with me for a reasonable price. Another way is to preship it away, but well I guess this pose a risk of damage and loss too. 

[Marty Backe]

9 hours ago, Aneta said:

He was flying from China with it? Well, China is China... but any such cases when flying within US or US->Europe and back? FAA rule is clearly spelled out - unlimited number of <100Wh packs, or max two of 160Wh packs. Print it out. TSA will not obey the FAA rule?!

I believe it was an American airline. As @meepmeepmayer said, the airline personal are the ones that can deny you. And arguing with them is like arguing with the police - it won't go your way.

[Unventor]

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I believe it was an American airline. As @meepmeepmayer said, the airline personal are the ones that can deny you. And arguing with them is like arguing with the police - it won't go your way.

Well I were looking into maybe joining in on next years LA EUC games, but it is simply impossible to go there form Sweden with a reasonable price and have my one of my EUCs with me. Then adding the bulkiness of my grear ....and helmet without it it betting bumped. It is sad in a way as it would have been perfect to bring you EUC as you travel around in many occasions. 

It is not like I can take the train to the US from my place. Then there is another option, taking a boat, but that is a long time travel so...maybe one day when I am retired (looks to be in 25 years or so...). 

[Aneta]

21 minutes ago, Unventor said:

It is not a matter of lying. So might slip through or are better prepared and have pre-arranged a solution with a specific airline. This have been debated before on this forum. Since you are new here and the forum post are many I understand you might not have seen the previous references. 

Have a look at this: https://www.iata.org/whatwedo/cargo/dgr/Documents/small-lithium-battery-powered-vehicles.pdf

It is old and I have seen a 2017 version with even more airline signed one this. The 2017  version was a more or less class ban on hover boards like items, also hitting EUC. But if you want to bring it on a plane you better check with the airline and get it in written statement. Remember you might want to bring it back with you too so check the other way. 

Long story very short version: EUC on a plane is mission impossible. Some might succeed, most will not.

I wish I could take it with me for a reasonable price. Another way is to preship it away, but well I guess this pose a risk of damage and loss too. 

This document only talks about transporting PEVs as a whole, in assembled form. Not as "carcass" in checked baggage, battery separately in carryon.

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Aneta said:

This document only talks about transporting PEVs as a whole, in assembled form. Not as "carcass" in checked baggage, battery separately in carryon.

Take it anyway you like....you are not getting the point here. 

[Marty Backe]

7 hours ago, Unventor said:

Well I were looking into maybe joining in on next years LA EUC games, but it is simply impossible to go there form Sweden with a reasonable price and have my one of my EUCs with me. Then adding the bulkiness of my grear ....and helmet without it it betting bumped. It is sad in a way as it would have been perfect to bring you EUC as you travel around in many occasions. 

It is not like I can take the train to the US from my place. Then there is another option, taking a boat, but that is a long time travel so...maybe one day when I am retired (looks to be in 25 years or so...). 

Where there's a will there's a way. If I was intent on traveling to another distant country with a wheel, I would arrange to buy one and have it waiting for me in that country. Upon my return I would sell it. Using your network of global friends, it would be relatively easy to find people willing to help in the purchase and selling of said wheel. You would just need to play the part of the Banker 

[Hsiang]

And I was just thinking of coming here this morning to post a thread asking why we can't have modular batteries?! Removable battery isn't just great for traveling, it also provide way more flexibility for day to day usage, allow you the option to carry spares, upgrading your wheel without buying more batteries which is one of the more expensive components.

The gogoro battery exchange program in Taiwan is brilliant, you never have to worry about range on their scooter since it takes you less than 30 seconds to swap out a pair of fully charged batteries at the local gas station. 

The only reason I can think of for the lack of interest is the lack of foresight on the part of the manufacturer, none of them are thinking of the future, it just feel to me like they want to capitalize on the EUC "fad" for as long as they can while minimizing their own investment.