Future EUC Wishlist

[mrelwood]

17 hours ago, Mono said:

That tiltback throws the rider off may be true for some wheels (maybe a typical Gotway thing?)

At least the MSX has an extremely smooth tilt-back with a ramp of 6km/h, and I can easily keep a steady speed at halfway. It works for me very well since I will never accelerate rapidly at fast speeds, so even a slight deviation prevents me from going faster.

The 16S tilt-back had a much steeper ramp, so I can see how it can get aggressive if you try to accelerate rapidly past it. But this solution has been presented quite some time ago:

17 hours ago, Mono said:

there is quite some room for improvement of current implementations of tiltback, for example based on acceleration and thrust margin (as mentioned already above) and with constraints for smooth changes, so l guess that's on our future EUC wishlist then 

Exactly and absolutely!

[zeke]

22 hours ago, Mono said:

I am sure there is quite some room for improvement of current implementations of tiltback, for example based on acceleration and thrust margin (as mentioned already above) and with constraints for smooth changes, so l guess that's on our future EUC wishlist then 

Glad to see more rallying in support of better safety from overlean. 

 

16 hours ago, xorbe said:

Bluetooth shock collar.

Haha yup. Well okay maybe not this, but yes some better means of communicating to the rider how much margin is left.

Simply prohibiting the rider from going higher speeds is ineffective, because overleans can still occur even at low speeds from heavy riders attempting aggressive acceleration. Overbuild the EUC so it can never have an overlean, no matter the rider weight? That would be cost- and performance-prohibitive. Force the rider to always ride with a certain amount of margin? Perhaps, but how much? (That's what they currently do.) 

Ultimately the best thing is just to communicate how much margin is left, and let the rider decide.

 

On 11/30/2019 at 10:03 AM, General Principle said:

Someway to help prevent cutouts.

The best way to understand this phenomenon is to consider what happens when sprinters lean too far forward while running and their legs can't keep up:

This is a rare occurrence when you're running, even competitively, because you can feel how tired you are.

Same thing on an EUC: lean too far forward and at some point, it simply can't keep up anymore and you faceplant. Difference is, you can't feel how "tired" the EUC is.

Solution? We need to know how tired the EUC is. Not just a randomly programmed beeper or tiltback warning that kicks in at an unknown point; we need feedback that tells us, in no uncertain terms, how much margin is left before we wipeout. This information is kinda important.

[mike_bike_kite]

Just thought of another one. Wheels should have an tyre pressure monitoring system showing the current pressure.

[mike_bike_kite]

Another thought but for sellers this time : Sellers could provide inexpensive rental wheels for people to learn on. These could be robust used wheels that are already padded up. Potential owners could pay £100 to use the wheel for a month. If they take to it then that money could possibly be taken off their next purchase. If they don't take to it then the customer hasn't risked too much. Either way the wheel gets sent back at the end of the month. The seller would obviously also have the opportunity to sell helmets, wrist guards, knee-pads and T-shirts each time.

[Mono]

I don't feel though that sellers of PLEVs currently need to make lots of effort to sell new products. What I have seen repeatedly is that they just start selling scooters and that keeps them pretty damn busy. I also can remember that a reputable seller did not want to encourage customers to try the product before they buy it.

[Nic]

Also, most people are buying online, so rental is not practical. However, I can see tour companies renting scooters and EUC's in tourist hotspots.

Edited December 8, 2019 by Nic

[mike_bike_kite]

Everyone can use an electric scooter but it's a lot harder to learn to ride EUCs. People like the idea of riding one but aren't sure they'll master it. Currently they have to put down $1000 to see if it suits them. That's OK if you have disposable income but it doesn't suit all. Anyway, it was just an idea ...

[Planemo]

I recently heard of people hiring EUC's (I think it was Spain) for £50 a day so I dont think £100 a month would be financially viable.

When you think of the scope for potential damage/cost when giving a newbie a £1000+ wheel, I think even £50 a day is pretty reasonable. Unless of course theres a sizable deposit to go with it.

[Mono]

17 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Everyone can use an electric scooter but it's a lot harder to learn to ride EUCs. People like the idea of riding one but aren't sure they'll master it. Currently they have to put down $1000 to see if it suits them. That's OK if you have disposable income but it doesn't suit all. Anyway, it was just an idea ...

I am total in favor, of course. And we have this post as a counter example to my other observations:

 

[Mono]

On 11/23/2019 at 3:48 AM, zeke said:

Chargers that attach to the EUC with a storage compartment for the cable

"The Max is the first scooter to feature a built in power adapter":

Edited December 9, 2019 by Mono

[Nic]

5 hours ago, Mono said:

"The Max is the first scooter to feature a built in power adapter":

It also has input for an external charger...

Edited December 10, 2019 by Nic

[Mono]

11 hours ago, Nic said:

It also has input for an external charger...

I thought so too as it looks like there is a connector for an external charger, but none of the reviewers is mentioning it, and it doesn't come with another charger and one professional reviewer even mentioned the disadvantage that one would be stuck if the internal charger is broken, because one cannot borrow and connect another charger. I am not sure what to think.

[Nic]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

I thought so too as it looks like there is a connector for an external charger, but none of the reviewers is mentioning it, and it doesn't come with another charger and one professional reviewer even mentioned the disadvantage that one would be stuck if the internal charger is broken, because one cannot borrow and connect another charger. I am not sure what to think.

Its mentioned on this page...

http://uk-en.segway.com/products/ninebot-kickscooter-max-g30

 

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

 

My take...
Cost plays a role...

Other things too

The current optics and demographics of an EUC rider very much resemble what cycling in the US did 20 years ago...45 year old suburban white males with disposable income. There are aesthetic parallels as well. Speed, competition, Lycra, extreme, Tour de France helmets, and weight wennies were the face of cycling in the US. Until we had a movement of bikes/bikers to ride for fun, commute like other countries. Then there is that cycle culture elitism that sometimes rears it’s head in our hobby (the debate here re: “acceptable” and “proper” ways to ride, and who should be banned?) That stuff sends a subtle but strong message...certainly not one of growth and inclusion. 

EUC could benefit from less “speed” & scary gear and more leisurely riders. Perhaps dressed nicely and not like we are going to war. 

Also customization crushes us (cough, cough onewheel 😉) . I stated a thread on the forums for nice looking EUC’s, in part, for this very reason. It’s okay to want something to look nice, cool, etc. also perhaps explains why I see more young, and female onewheel riders.

Just thoughts from a guy who loves EUC and wants to see it grow.

We should take a que from how cycling grew. 
 

Baskets, lighting, parking, safety, locking  More commuter specific and less Xtreme sports specific. Essentially taking a que from bike culture. Spandex to slacks. Clipless to Jordan’s or Vans. 

Edited April 6, 2020 by General Principle

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

1 hour ago, /Dev/Null said:

I was with you until I saw "scary gear".  What is scary gear?

Good question. I suppose I’m thinking about guys in full-Ish motocross gear. That doesn’t mean just the equipment itself, but the racing colors as well. 
 

im not suggesting people be less protected. Again, I come from the bike world and have watched it evolve over the years and it has seen its biggest growth when the former became less dominant. 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Deleted.

Edited March 18 by PLEASE_DELETE

[mike_bike_kite]

I think it's fully understandable to want to wear full protection when riding with faster moving traffic. It just starts to look wrong to me though when people start wearing shaded visors - here in London it tends to be teenagers on stolen scooters that ride around with shaded visors so no-one can see their face. When I see people in videos riding on footpaths while dressed up in external armour, full face helmets and mirror shades then I just wonder what sort of impression they want to give the public? Especially if they're riding at speed. 

[Esash]

On 11/16/2019 at 10:15 PM, zeke said:

Hey y'all!

I've spent a year riding EUCs and ripping through upgrades (IPS i6, InMotion V8, KS18L w/Pedal Upgrade, MSX100V 1.23kWh, and now a MSX100V 1.85kWh coming in the mail). I started off thinking "bleh, I'm not a speed demon like those crazies riding GotWays" so I started off small, but I found that I really love the speed and safety of having more power and keeping up with cars at 70km/h. The big tires also lessen my fear of potholes and other road surface aberrations. Alongside my other hobbies (skydiving and alpine climbing), EUC riding is up there on my favorites list. The EUC is also a convenient tool for short errands, last-mile transport, and walking the dog. I truly believe it's the future of urban transport.

So having dropped another $2k on this hobby, I'm idly pondering the future directions that EUCs will take and how they can get better. Could we get together a wish list of near-term and long-term improvements that we'd like to see on the EUCs of the future?

Here's my list.

Short-term:

1. Kuji Pads standard.
   Besides enabling tricks like jumping up curbs, Kuji Pads are a safety feature, helping reduce foot slip when traveling over irregular terrain.
    
2. Long footpedals standard.
   To extract the most performance (and safety) out of your EUC, the pedals need to be as long as your foot. This allows your center of gravity to shift as far forward or backward as possible, allowing the greatest control input for rapid acceleration and deceleration. It also allows you to climb and descend steeper hills. With the upgraded pedals on the KS18L, I've climbed the steepest hills in San Francisco with no complaint. The same cannot be said for the standard short pedals on the MSX.
    
3. Footpedal grind guards. 
   Pedal scrape is no joke, especially if your pedal hits a bump in the road. Danger arises from the potential for the pedal to get "stuck," causing a sudden torque and launching you off the EUC. If the pedals had low-friction grind guards on their leading edge (made of acetal or UHMWPE, for example), this would lessen the odds of getting stuck. Of course, they would be consumables.
    
4. Dihedral footpedals standard.
   The angled dihedral footpedals of the MSX seem weird at first, but they really secure your foot against the EUC—a huge benefit for reducing foot slip when hitting unexpected bumps, or when riding one-footed. Especially if you must make frequent stops, such as when walking the dog, this latter point is important for lessening foot fatigue. They also lessen the odds of pedal scrape on sharp turns.

Long-term:

1. Higher speed. 
   Keeping up with cars is lots of fun, but also important for safety (drivers DGAF). I'd like to see future EUCs with a top speed of 80 or 90km/h.
    
2. Bigger battery.
   Since drag force rises quadratically with speed, you need a bigger battery to go long distances if you're going fast. I'd like future EUCs with 3kWh or more.
    
3. Shock absorbers.
   My knees are fine, but using them to dampen the resonant tank formed by the tire's spring force and the EUC's mass can be a challenge—as a human, my response time isn't fast enough to dampen it well; I need to anticipate and prepare for the shock. Especially on poorly maintained roads, it's difficult to keep up with the repetitive and unpredictable force impulses when traveling at speed, causing anxiety about foot slip when traveling on unknown paths at night. It would be preferred if shock absorbers (important: with dampeners) were integrated into the EUC structure, especially if the battery was kept unsprung. I imagine this would result in a supremely buttery ride.
    
4. Belt-drive.
   This one's debatable, because it introduces another point of failure into the drivetrain, but...
   
   The power you can get out of a motor is proportional to the product of its size (namely, its volume) and how fast you spin it. With direct drive, where the motor is integrated into the wheel structure, you aren't spinning the motor very fast so its power density is remarkably low. As a result, for a given power level the motor must be really big—and neodymium and copper ain't cheap. If you added gearing or a belt drive, then the motor could spin faster than the wheel and be much smaller—like a hobby motor. This would substantially reduce the cost and weight of EUCs. Additionally, the sprung mass could be reduced and it would be easier to carry around.
   
   I take pause because it adds another point of failure if the belt breaks. While a drivetrain failure on a motorcycle might cause a fall, a drivetrain failure on an EUC will cause a fall. Maybe some belt-drive experts can chime in.
    
5. Foot attachment.
   Having dihedral pedals and Kuji pads helps to reduce foot slip, but nothing can beat a true attachment. It needn't take much force, since it would only need to prevent your feet from slipping off while catching air, so "clip-in" pedals like bicycles or skis would be unnecessary. Preferably something that can be detached easily when you need to step or jump off.
   
   My thought at the moment is to place a magnet on the pedal or the side of the EUC, and to have a small steel plate that pins to the bottom or side your shoe that is attracted by the magnet.
    
6. Articulating seats.
   Control of acceleration on the EUC arises from your ability to translate your center of gravity longitudinally, fore or aft of the tire's point of contact. Your ankles' articulation permits this motion. Fine control of steering is done by twisting your hips (and by extension the EUC) axially against your torso's rotational inertia, and course control by lateral translation of your center of gravity to the left or right of the tire's point of contact. The former is permitted by twisting articulation in your trunk, and the latter by articulation in your ankles and hips.
   
   On a seat that is rigidly mounted to the EUC, your ability to perform these translations and rotations is greatly diminished. In this case, you are reliant on the compliance in your butt tissue, which even for those blessed with child-bearing hips is not much. As a result, your control inputs on a seat are severely limited. This endangers you since you cannot steer or decelerate as quickly as may be needed in the event of an emergency.
   
   Articulating seats that permit a few centimeters of longitudinal and lateral translation, and several degrees of axial rotation, should greatly improve this situation.
    
7. Maintenance schedules.
   As EUCs become faster and more powerful, and as more people ride them, it becomes more critical to keep them well-maintained. Manufacturer-recommended maintenance and inspection intervals may be wise.

What's your wishlist?

Cheers!

Looks like the Begode Hero checks off almost all those boxes, except range.

(I'm searching threads for "dihedral" and found this old one)