Future EUC Wishlist

[Aneta]

10 hours ago, Nic said:

This doesn't work in space. It depends on gravitational field, which varies with altitude.

It works in the whole Universe. Suppose, there are no losses to friction. You take 100kg on Earth, push it to the Moon, Jupiter, go to stars and galaxies, and finally return to a point 1m higher than where you took off. The whole mechanical work done in all these light years of space travel will be precisely 980J, or 0.27Wh, or only 2% of a single Sanyo GA 18650 cell.

Isn't Physics... kewl?

Edited November 20, 2019 by Aneta

[Nic]

1 hour ago, Aneta said:

It works in the whole Universe. Suppose, there are no losses to friction. You take 100kg on Earth, push it to the Moon, Jupiter, go to stars and galaxies, and finally return to a point 1m higher than where you took off. The whole mechanical work done in all these light years of space travel will be precisely 980J, or 0.27Wh, or only 2% of a single Sanyo GA 18650 cell.

Isn't Physics... kewl?

Physics is kewl, but also very difficult to get your head around ... at least for me.

How much energy does it take to get to the Moon? How much energy does it take to get back?

In this case there is no energy recovery to get a free return trip because there is no gravity to act as an energy store.

At least that is what I am thinking, but I admit that it is not at all clear. You need thrust to get you there and then to slow down when you arrive. I'm not sure how this relates to work done but it is energy. Is thrust considered as losses? Then you have the Moon's gravity to deal with and the potential energy you have on its surface. 

But I do agree that potential energy gained will be 980J for 1m altitude gained on the round trip.

[Aneta]

23 minutes ago, Nic said:

Is thrust considered as losses? Then you have the Moon's gravity to deal with and the potential energy you have on its surface. 

Yes, rocket thrust is mostly losses, it's a one-way energy release - it's impossible to put the gases back into the rocket, once they escape the burn chamber, to "regen" the energy. My example meant 100% lossless and 100% regenerative source of energy, e.g. a magic spring that is compressed and stores enough potential energy to push you to the Moon. Once you reach the Moon, the spring will pull you back to Earth and will compress back to its initial condition, with 100% return of its energy - if you return to the same height. If you return to 1m higher, the spring will have exactly 980J less PE. This is because gravitational field is a conservative field.

Physics is not only kewl, but mind-boggling, too!

Edited November 20, 2019 by Aneta

[zeke]

Summary of the wish list so far.

A. General

1. Faster EUCs
2. Bigger batteries
3. Lower weight
4. Better mobile app
5. Access to firmware for validation and customization
6. Tough rubberized shells, or removable bumpers

B. Comfort & Control

1. Kuji Pads standard
2. Low-friction shin pads for accelerating/decelerating
3. Standardized footpedal attachments so we can pick our own footpedals. Namely,
   1. Footpedals with grind guards
   2. Long footpedals
   3. Dihedral footpedals
4. Shock absorbers (maybe)
5. Magnetic foot attachments

C. Convenience

1. Small EUCs with modular battery packs for air travel
2. Easier tire changes
3. Chargers that attach to the EUC with a storage compartment for the cable
4. Chargers that can also work in reverse as an inverter, to charge laptops or for other backup power purposes

D. Safety & Reliability

1. Better feedback to rider about, at any instant, how much thrust margin is available to avoid over-lean
2. Better inspection and manufacturing control for first batch issues
3. Better waterproofing
4. Better, brighter front/rear lights
5. Testing standards for acceleration/braking/waterproofing/range
6. Inspection and maintenance schedules

E. Security

1. Physical kill switch key (USB dongle?) so that EUC can be locked
2. Motion/Tamper Alarm... With bluetooth to alert phone?
3. Lockable point for a physical lock to stationary objects
4. Components with unique identifiers to track down stolen EUCs

Is this wish list complete, or is there anything else you'd like to see in future EUCs?

[Aneta]

1 hour ago, zeke said:

Summary of the wish list so far.

A. General

1. Faster EUCs
2. Bigger batteries
3. Lower weight
4. Better mobile app
5. Access to firmware for validation and customization
6. Tough rubberized shells, or removable bumpers

B. Comfort & Control

1. Kuji Pads standard
2. Low-friction shin pads for accelerating/decelerating
3. Standardized footpedal attachments so we can pick our own footpedals. Namely,
   1. Footpedals with grind guards
   2. Long footpedals
   3. Dihedral footpedals
4. Shock absorbers (maybe)
5. Magnetic foot attachments

C. Convenience

1. Small EUCs with modular battery packs for air travel
2. Easier tire changes
3. Chargers that attach to the EUC with a storage compartment for the cable
4. Chargers that can also work in reverse as an inverter, to charge laptops or for other backup power purposes

D. Safety & Reliability

1. Better feedback to rider about, at any instant, how much thrust margin is available to avoid over-lean
2. Better inspection and manufacturing control for first batch issues
3. Better waterproofing
4. Better, brighter front/rear lights
5. Testing standards for acceleration/braking/waterproofing/range
6. Inspection and maintenance schedules

E. Security

1. Physical kill switch key (USB dongle?) so that EUC can be locked
2. Motion/Tamper Alarm... With bluetooth to alert phone?
3. Lockable point for a physical lock to stationary objects
4. Components with unique identifiers to track down stolen EUCs

Is this wish list complete, or is there anything else you'd like to see in future EUCs?

Great work compiling this list!

A few things missing I find totally unbelievable in that not only we don't have them standard in EUCs, but nobody even thinks about having them:

- duplicating ALL wiring and connectors that our life literally depends on: phase wires and their MT60 connectors, Hall wires and their connectors (more on that below), battery wires and connectors (antispark XT90S must be standard). No need to duplicate non-essential wiring like speakers, lights, and charging wires/connectors - our life does not depend on these.

- have controller enclosed in a hard enclosure like ebike and escooter controllers are, FOR CHRIST'S SAKE (this one is truly mind boggling!). A metal shaving or a fallen screw can short the exposed circuit board!

- make axles at the very least 20mm, the more the better, not these thin axles designed to fit standard 14x10mm bicycle dropouts. This is not only for strength, but to be able to pass at least 12AWG or thicker phase wires, on both sides (since phase and Hall wires will be duplicated) - not single puny 14-16AWG (!!!) that most EUCs have today.

- have battery packs have a standard DB25 25-pin connector (aka RS232 serial port) for access to each parallel group voltage and manual balancing, for up to 24s (100V) batteries. Doesn't need to be exposed to outside/waterproofed, have it under the cover. This is for infrequent in-depth battery inspection and balance correction.

- attach Hall sensors to stator in some more reliable way than just glue

- for wheels that support seats, they MUST have some kind of rigid metal structure that transmits all of rider's weight onto the pedal hangers, not to a flimsy plastic shell that barely withstands EUC's fall on itself!

 

More about duplicating life-critical wires and connectors: wires and especially connectors do fail. Your life depends on a tiny 28AWG wire tail that is crimped in Hall connector, for example. It only takes one such crimp or contact to fail, and send you possibly to a serious injury. When I needed to change tire on my GT16, I found out that Hall connector was so small and flimsy, that they just put a big gob of hot glue all over it - when I carefully removed the glue, the wires just fell out, because they were held in crimps by only 1mm tail of the wire! Can you believe that? Your life and wellbeing of your family depends on this 1mm tail! I cut this joke off and installed a good, sturdy and waterproof 5-pin connector with thread that can be tightened.

So, duplicating wires and connectors will greatly decrease the chance of lost electric contact (if one fails, the other is still good) while riding, and regular checking of them will reveal any issues.

XT60 or XT90 (battery), MT60 (phase), Hall, etc. - all connectors can fail, but if they're duplicated, simultaneous failure is extremely unlikely.

I highly recommend everyone to open up their EUCs and take a close look at connectors, esp. Hall. You might be up for some instant gray hairs!

Edited November 23, 2019 by Aneta

[Mono]

6 hours ago, Aneta said:

make axles at the very least 20mm, the more the better

the more the better can't possibly be true, as it is not true for the solution to almost any engineering problem. Axles haven't even been a problem in most EUC models AFAIK and I believe I have lately seen more broken pedals than broken axles.

 

[null]

The decorative lighting that could have a positioning light setting: in Europe white in front / red behind.

Could add to the base beams at night or serve at day when countries require “always on”.

Edited December 9, 2019 by null

[mike_bike_kite]

10 hours ago, zeke said:

Summary of the wish list so far.

Just remember that not all the points are of equal importance.

* Faster EUCs - The current Nikola can hit 40mph and I suspect you'd have to have a death wish to do even that. 

* Bigger batteries - Some EUC already have 2Kwh batteries. Do we really need more? Do people want the weight and cost of larger batteries? Do they never meet stairs?

* Customising firmware - EUC firmware takes time and experience to write and then needs a bunch of testing before releasing. I suspect a manufacturer would have to be insane to let owners write their own.

* USB kill switches - might be OK until you have a fall and break the damn thing. 

* Components with unique identifiers - this wasn't a big thing and is no where near as important as say better waterproofing.

 

Edited November 23, 2019 by mike_bike_kite

[Mono]

17 hours ago, zeke said:

Is this wish list complete, or is there anything else you'd like to see in future EUCs?

LOL, some which spring in mind immediately, in random order

• A contactless rider detection which stops the wheel when the rider ran or fell off (was apparently implemented in the Uniwheel).
• Exchangeable batteries (less than 10 seconds) not only on "small" plane-compliant EUCs, but for riders who need a large range only once in a while and otherwise prefer to carry less weight and volume.
• A non-physical lock via the app (some had it in the past, I don't know for most current wheels, so maybe I am just not up-to-date). It should be designed in a smart way that, for example, locking oneself out unintentionally (say if the phone runs out of battery while the wheel is locked) can be circumvented.
• Thinner shape, at least compared to what is standard on the bigger wheels nowadays.
• Smaller form factor without changing any other specifications.
• Actually comfortable padding.
• No maintenance schedule, because maintenance is made unnecessary by design.

After all, a long wish list is only the first baby step and a rather futile exercise without setting priorities and analyzing feasibility and costs and potential disadvantages coming with each feature.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Mono

[atdlzpae]

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

* Bigger batteries - Some EUC already have 2Kwh batteries. Do we really need more? Do people want the weight and cost of larger batteries? Do they never meet stairs?

Yes, there are people like that.

17 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

* Customising firmware - EUC firmware takes time and experience to write and then needs a bunch of testing before releasing. I suspect a manufacturer would have to be insane to let owners write their own.

Why? Just say "Flashing your own firmware voids warranty" and you're golden.
Are car manufacturers insane to let you repair or tune your own car? Or maybe you're saying that I don't have time or experience to modify an EUC firmware?

[marc]

Increasing speed to 100km/h with 24" highway capable EUC's with 120V or 150V but limiting automatically the speed to +-30km/h if the ultimate chest and shoulder protection is not on the rider: check by bluetooth connection to the chest and shoulder protection. By this way countries will stop forbidding EUC's.

[Mono]

 Increasing the maximal speed to 240km/h, after all that's the agreed upon standard for high end cars on German roads IIRC. That way, EUCs will become legal like cars already are. But wait, cars need (i) type approval, (ii) regular authorized inspections, (iii) insurance, and (iv) a drivers licence to be operated legally. I guess the authorities will be more gentle on EUCs: because they have only one wheel, only one out of the four will be needed 

25 minutes ago, marc said:

Increasing speed to 100km/h with 24" highway capable EUC's with 120V or 150V but limiting automatically the speed to +-30km/h if the ultimate chest and shoulder protection is not on the rider: check by bluetooth connection to the chest and shoulder protection. By this way countries will stop forbidding EUC's.

LOL, understand though that the main objective of the law is not rider protection but protecting everyone else besides the one who is operating the vehicle, AKA innocent bystanders.

[mike_bike_kite]

2 hours ago, atdlzpae said:

Or maybe you're saying that I don't have time or experience to modify an EUC firmware?

I haven't a clue whether you have that sort of experience but I have been writing software for about 30 years (everything from program trading systems, to games software and even chess engines) but it's different when it's your skin on the line. The closest I got to an EUC was building a toy segway years ago, it used a picaxe microcontroller, accelerometer and motor drivers - I remember it clearing my workbench as it shot off the desk. It wasn't a success

What exactly would you write into the firmware that isn't currently there? Do you have the experience to modify EUC firmware? I'm actually curious as to what language the firmware is written in?

[atdlzpae]

@mike_bike_kite 90% chance it's written in C, 10% chance it's written in C++. Maybe with a touch of assembler.
For example I'd love for the wheel to not beep when started up. Maybe a special "Handle mode" on MSX which tilts the wheel to make handle in the center of mass.
Add some security to Bluetooth. Add a configurable pedal tilt.
Disable beeping on KingSongs when you hit the tiltbacks - I disconnected speakers from KS16S  because I was annoyed at it's beeping.
KingSong requires you to connect to the internet to set tiltbacks. If one server in China ever dies, no KingSong user will be able to change tiltbacks.

None of those changes change much in a way the wheel rides. Changes to the riding algorithm would require much more testing.
 

38 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The closest I got to an EUC was building a toy segway years ago, it used a picaxe microcontroller, accelerometer and motor drivers - I remember it clearing my workbench as it shot off the desk. It wasn't a success

That's a difference between building from scratch and modifying a working version.
If taking a source code in C and modifying it is X, then modifying a binary (for example a dump from an unsecured microcontroller) is 10X and writing it from scratch (with through testing) is 100X.
That's why I'd love for firmwares to be open-source. It would save a lot of time.

[mike_bike_kite]

My guess is it wouldn't be C or assembler simply because I don't think you need that sort of performance. Microcontrollers are a bit like a simple computer on a chip and are designed to easily communicate with switches, accelerometers (gyros), bluetooth chips and motor controllers. They are also particularly rugged. I only have experience with Picaxe microcontrollers but Arduino is a newer, and more popular, microcontroller.  If you're interested in seeing how easy it is to read an accelerometer then this video is enlightening. All the bits are quite cheap to buy and easy to start playing with.

Anyway, back to future wishes.

[mrelwood]

More options for the user to choose from in the app, such as start-up tone etc would be very nice. Even some riding related parameters related to the riding mode or the wheel behaviour would be really cool. But open source firmware? No way. No manufacturer would ever even release their code.

[mike_bike_kite]

Tuning the sound made by the wheel so it's not only silent to people but also silent to dogs.

[Daley1]

Doe,s anyone have contact with the manufacturers?It would be nice to know what they are working on or developing.How do they go about surveying customers to see what we want ?,or do they just cater to there home market?How do they go about R and D?I havent seen any camofluaged EUC,s cruising around being road tested like they do for cars! 

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

Safety and customization is going to move the hobby forward.

Someway to help prevent cutouts.

And either OEM or aftermarket customization (Both function as week as fashion).

[Mono]

48 minutes ago, General Principle said:

Someway to help prevent cutouts.

Do you understand where these "cutouts" come from? The solution is relatively simple: reduce the maximal speed by 10-or-so km/h and don't let the customer turn off tiltback. It's pretty much also the only solution, namely to allow less speed for any given motor, meaning less speed for the buck. I feel the main hindrance is the market which is only moderately interested in the solution.

Edited November 30, 2019 by Mono

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Do you understand where these "cutouts" come from? The solution is relatively simple: reduce the maximal speed by 10-or-so km/h and don't let the customer turn off tiltback. It's pretty much also the only solution, namely to allow less speed for any given motor, meaning less speed for the buck. I feel the main hindrance is the market which is only moderately interested in the solution.

Right. Was going to mention the human/rider variable...hard to control for...

[Shad0z]

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Do you understand where these "cutouts" come from? The solution is relatively simple: reduce the maximal speed by 10-or-so km/h and don't let the customer turn off tiltback. It's pretty much also the only solution, namely to allow less speed for any given motor, meaning less speed for the buck. I feel the main hindrance is the market which is only moderately interested in the solution.

You can't just limit the speed. Then it wouldn't balance if you kept leaning forwards and you would just fall forwards because it didn't accelerate to catch you. Only option is hard tiltback before the max. But tiltback so hard that it actually stops the user from going faster is just as dangerous as a cutout in some ways. It will almost throw you off. The simple solution is to ride slower. And add warnings and adequate tiltback to alert the user, if the user then keeps going then it's their fault. These things are not toys made to catch you when you decide to fuck with them. Just like how a car will still hit a tree if you run into it. And euc will cut out if you keep pushing it. It's that simple. 

[Mono]

41 minutes ago, Shad0z said:

But tiltback so hard that it actually stops the user from going faster is just as dangerous as a cutout in some ways. It will almost throw you off.

That tiltback throws the rider off may be true for some wheels (maybe a typical Gotway thing?), but it is neither my experience nor do I see that this must be so necessarily. Whether one feels thrown off seems to a large extend determined by how fast the neutral angle is changing which is related to what users accept as maximal tiltback-free speed. I am sure there is quite some room for improvement of current implementations of tiltback, for example based on acceleration and thrust margin (as mentioned already above) and with constraints for smooth changes, so l guess that's on our future EUC wishlist then 

[Daley1]

the old airwheel i used to ride would have the tiltback "slowly cut in" as u approached maximal speed.Only problem would be that u were continually riding with ur feet tipped backwards on this slow euc.Bonus was that it didnt care the SxxT out of u when it happened !

[xorbe]

6 hours ago, Shad0z said:

But tiltback so hard that it actually stops the user from going faster is just as dangerous as a cutout in some ways. It will almost throw you off. The simple solution is to ride slower. And add warnings and adequate tiltback to alert the user, if the user then keeps going then it's their fault.

Bluetooth shock collar.