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photorph

Just unboxed my Gotway MSX 100v, quick initial PRE-RIDE impressions in comments (compared to my inmotion v8)

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Congrats on the new wheel, this is top of the line in performance and speed. I guess you can say that the attention from gotway went mostly into the new and superb PCB.
I personally really like the trolley handle, you get used to it and playing with the balance, its really easy to move the wheel around, it will also wear itself more loose over time, so dont think much about it. :) 

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Nicely bought. MSX might feel cheap but they can take a beating... I'm at 5,000 miles and still going strong despite a rough life full of falls and abuse. None of my three MSV3's made it past 4,000 miles, and were very rickety at that point. You want that trolley handle stiff so it doesn't come out during a crash. It will be the first thing to take damage. 

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21 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

The V8 has metal side shells? Every wheel on the planet is made from plastic.

Don't confuse "soft" with fragile. A softer plastic is less likely to crack than a hard plastic. My MSX has taken some hard hits and it's doing just fine.

"It's not much bigger than the v8"? Now I know that you're just trolling us :roflmao:  Good one. You had me going there for a bit :)

All the negativity aside, I hope you come around to enjoying the MSX. But I warn you, if you post, "The MSX isn't that much more powerful than the V8", we ain't going to believe you ;)

I hope it takes hits fine!  It isn’t physically (dimensions wise) THAT much bigger than v8, just wider.  

Yes I am enjoying it!  Took my first ride and hit 28 mph.  So smooth.

I still have no clue what the beeps are, first alarm beep, second alarm beep, and third beep??  What does each one signify?  

And does everyone just turn these beeps off?  At high speeds of above 20 mph with full face helmet you can barely hear them anyway.   What setting do people put in the gotway app?  The instructions from gotway are non existent.  

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25 minutes ago, photorph said:

I hope it takes hits fine!  It isn’t physically (dimensions wise) THAT much bigger than v8, just wider.  

Yes I am enjoying it!  Took my first ride and hit 28 mph.  So smooth.

I still have no clue what the beeps are, first alarm beep, second alarm beep, and third beep??  What does each one signify?  

And does everyone just turn these beeps off?  At high speeds of above 20 mph with full face helmet you can barely hear them anyway.   What setting do people put in the gotway app?  The instructions from gotway are non existent.  

Maybe there's an optical illusion in play here. The only tire bigger than the MSX is the Monster. Or maybe you just don't have experience with enough other wheels to realize how big the MSX is.

But I'm glad that you are enjoying it :thumbup:

Do a search on the Forum for "gotway beeps" and you should get your questions answered.

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23 hours ago, photorph said:

I hope it takes hits fine!  It isn’t physically (dimensions wise) THAT much bigger than v8, just wider.  

Just from looking at the picture the V8 is the size of MSX tire 🤣

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35 minutes ago, zeke said:

Did your MSX arrive with a really low speed limit?

I have a KS18L, so naturally I ordered an MSX 100V to go faster (and keep pace with traffic on local low-speed 56km/h roads). The KS18L's top speed (tilt-back speed) is a bit shy at 50km/h, making me feel unsafe sharing the road with cars.

image.png.624c9734b32d7d0a2987fba961ce820e.png

I got my MSX from Jason yesterday too, and it arrived programmed with a tilt-back speed of 18km/h. I downloaded DarknessBot (iPhone), but it wasn't able to change the speed. Then I downloaded the Kebye GotWay app, which allowed me to program the tilt-back speed up to 48km/h (the highest speed option). Then the alarms got in the way (they activated at like 30km/h), so I had to select "Turn off the Secand class alarm" to make it tolerable to ride ... Finally, since the whole point of this thing is to cruise at 56km/h, the only tilt-back option that would suffice was "Close tilt back." (They have options from 3km/h up to 48km/h in 3km/h increments, but nothing over 48km/h??)

image.png.0848fe1f49d0a720d06550f8ae12ca27.png

I gotta say, this thing is smooth like butter. Rides great. I love the angled peddles too: it can make really sharp turns, I have less fear of pedal-scrape, and I'm finally sure-footed while one-foot riding. The shin pads hurt because they are concave and the top comes to an edge, making a nasty pressure point on my shin (I used a razor to cut the edge off; compare with the KS18L, which has convex shin pads that are super comfortable), but otherwise I like the mechanical design. Trolley handle placement is weird, but it seems a decent trade-off so a seat can fit.

 

I like the KS18L's tilt-back: it kicks in quickly so you know it's on, and when you back off it goes away quickly. Because if this, it's really easy to cruise at 50km/h and feel confident you won't over-reach and take a spill; I've been riding the tilt-back for months with no problems. The MSX? Its tilt-back sucks!! It kicks in very gradually and it goes away very gradually, so you're stuck with your feet at an absurd angle for a long time before you notice it activated. More importantly, there's no way to program the tilt-back to trigger at a reasonable (higher than 48km/h) speed, so you'll turn it off anyway!? Meanwhile, the level-3 audible alarm happens at an unreasonably high speed (apparently 69km/h; haven't tried it yet—I've only taken it to 65km/h). Even then, an audible alarm doesn't seem like enough: I could barely hear the lower-speed alarms on account of wind noise.

Is my assessment here right? Basically, if you want to unlock any of the extra performance that the MSX offers over the KS18L, you have to accept the risk of crashing from not knowing how close you are to cutout? Without a good tilt-back or alarm that engages at a reasonable speed, how do you gauge whether you're going too fast?

 

 

P.S. My Inmotion V8 has taken a beating too, a fact that its brittle plastic shell clearly reflects.

Most people (I think) dislike the aggressive nature of the KingSong tilt-back. That's the last thing that you want to feel at 50km/h.

With Gotway, the accepted protocol is to slow down when you hear the 3rd alarm (which you cannot turn off). If you honor that alarm and slow down when you hear it, you'll be OK.

If you haven't heard the 3rd alarm yet, than you aren't going fast enough :D

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58 minutes ago, zeke said:

The shin pads hurt because they are concave and the top comes to an edge, making a nasty pressure point on my shin (I used a razor to cut the edge off;

I finally did that too a month ago. It indeed helps.

 

58 minutes ago, zeke said:

The MSX? Its tilt-back sucks!! It kicks in very gradually and it goes away very gradually

I prefer the MSX tilt-back for my riding style. When it gets increasingly difficult to go faster, be it wind or tilt-back, I won’t push further.

 

58 minutes ago, zeke said:

there's no way to program the tilt-back to trigger at a reasonable (higher than 48km/h) speed

This is a notable issue in my mind as well. I think the 48km/h has been the highest tilt-back for a long time now, so it seems like they just haven’t updated it to the modern faster wheels.

 

58 minutes ago, zeke said:

Even then, an audible alarm doesn't seem like enough: I could barely hear the lower-speed alarms on account of wind noise.

I agree.

 

58 minutes ago, zeke said:

Is my assessment here right?

Basically, if you want to unlock any of the extra performance that the MSX offers over the KS18L, you have to accept the risk of crashing from not knowing how close you are to cutout?

Yes, your assesment is correct. Although, to be precise, it’s an over-lean (lack of torque near the wheel’s top speed) that would make you crash, not a cut-out.

58 minutes ago, zeke said:

Without a good tilt-back or alarm that engages at a reasonable speed, how do you gauge whether you're going too fast?

If you want to go past 50km/h, a vibrating smartwatch or a Pebble connected to a smartphone might be the best solution. Luckily the 48km/h tilt-back suits me very well.

 

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5 hours ago, zeke said:

Did your MSX arrive with a really low speed limit?

I have a KS18L, so naturally I ordered an MSX 100V to go faster (and keep pace with traffic on local low-speed 56km/h roads). The KS18L's top speed (tilt-back speed) is a bit shy at 50km/h, making me feel unsafe sharing the road with cars.

image.png.624c9734b32d7d0a2987fba961ce820e.png

I got my MSX from Jason yesterday too, and it arrived programmed with a tilt-back speed of 18km/h. I downloaded DarknessBot (iPhone), but it wasn't able to change the speed. Then I downloaded the Kebye GotWay app, which allowed me to program the tilt-back speed up to 48km/h (the highest speed option). Then the alarms got in the way (they activated at like 30km/h), so I had to select "Turn off the Secand class alarm" to make it tolerable to ride ... Finally, since the whole point of this thing is to cruise at 56km/h, the only tilt-back option that would suffice was "Close tilt back." (They have options from 3km/h up to 48km/h in 3km/h increments, but nothing over 48km/h??)

image.png.0848fe1f49d0a720d06550f8ae12ca27.png

I gotta say, this thing is smooth like butter. Rides great. I love the angled peddles too: it can make really sharp turns, I have less fear of pedal-scrape, and I'm finally sure-footed while one-foot riding. The shin pads hurt because they are concave and the top comes to an edge, making a nasty pressure point on my shin (I used a razor to cut the edge off; compare with the KS18L, which has convex shin pads that are super comfortable), but otherwise I like the mechanical design. Trolley handle placement is weird, but it seems a decent trade-off so a seat can fit.

 

I like the KS18L's tilt-back: it kicks in quickly so you know it's on, and when you back off it goes away quickly. Because if this, it's really easy to cruise at 50km/h and feel confident you won't over-reach and take a spill; I've been riding the tilt-back for months with no problems. The MSX? Its tilt-back sucks!! It kicks in very gradually and it goes away very gradually, so you're stuck with your feet at an absurd angle for a long time before you notice it activated. More importantly, there's no way to program the tilt-back to trigger at a reasonable (higher than 48km/h) speed, so you'll turn it off anyway!? Meanwhile, the level-3 audible alarm happens at an unreasonably high speed (apparently 69km/h; haven't tried it yet—I've only taken it to 65km/h). Even then, an audible alarm doesn't seem like enough: I could barely hear the lower-speed alarms on account of wind noise.

Is my assessment here right? Basically, if you want to unlock any of the extra performance that the MSX offers over the KS18L, you have to accept the risk of crashing from not knowing how close you are to cutout? Without a good tilt-back or alarm that engages at a reasonable speed, how do you gauge whether you're going too fast?

 

 

P.S. My Inmotion V8 has taken a beating too, a fact that its brittle plastic shell clearly reflects.

 

This is spot on my thoughts as well.  I turned off first and 2nd alarm, and never got to 3rd alarm because I know I will not hear it with wind noise and full face helmet so it’s kind of pointless.  I leave the tiltback on but the problem with that is it kicks in too early, if you limit yourself to kickback speed then you may as well get a ks18 xl.  

The pads do put pressure on your shin more than other pads.  Trolley handle is made for alien hands and placement is awkward.  The tilt back comes in gradually and the wheel keep lifting up slowly as you go faster, I set the tiltback to 12 km/h to play around with it and got up to 20 km/h before it was tilting up too much.  

So it seems like you are taking more risks with gotway when going fast because you have to turn all tiltback off, and audible beep won’t be heard.  If there is a way of seeing your speed in your helmet visor or sunglasses that would be ideal.  I can’t put a watch on due to wrist guards and don’t want to hold phone and stare at that.  

Overall though I’m really liking the wheel, the ride is smooth and it’s pretty stable at higher speeds.  I haven’t properly tested range because I know my body has to get adjusted to this before I can ride for long durations.  If anyone has, let me know what’s the range 100v people are getting.

another annoying thing: I just got this and there are talks of a 2000 wh 100 v version and the new Nikola plus with even a bigger battery!

 

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In Darknness bot you can set yourself a speed alarm on your phone/ watch.

Tiltback does not save you from cutout, to perform it you need extra power. 

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37 minutes ago, LucasD said:

In Darknness bot you can set yourself a speed alarm on your phone/ watch.

Tiltback does not save you from cutout, to perform it you need extra power. 

I couldn’t find where to set speed alarm on darkness for some reason.

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It is in configuration

Application-Alarms- Speed

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Posted (edited)

 

Quote

image.thumb.png.9a8989bbe7ee35ac0ad575eec627367f.png

It would be interesting to know how the alarm speeds are reduced: Are they reduced in such a manner as to keep the alarm torque margin τMA constant as the battery discharges? Or are they reduced in such a manner as to keep the alarm velocity margin (vwipeoutvalarm) constant? Or something different altogether?

Thank you, @zeke! I have lately participated (my own fault) in too many discussions where physics is considered to be like religion, so one can just decide wether to believe it or not. It is heartwarming to see that this ”religion” still has some supporters after all.

KingSong tilt-back speed is reduced linearly from max speed at 30% to 15km/h at 5% battery (varies by model). Considering that even the battery percentage 0 (and even 100) point is different on different wheels, I think this is just a crude way that tries to stay well under both margins you mentioned. Since the behavior is the same between some models with different top speeds and battery capacities, I’m pretty sure they haven’t applied any advanced calculations before arriving on the mentioned values.

The Gotway approach is still a bit unclear to me. Besides the first two fixed-(at-too-low-a-)speed beeps that everyone switches off, I know it beeps whenever the battery gets below 15% and tilts back at 0%, but I’m not sure wether the ”third beep” is played at a fixed speed, or if there is more elaborate computations behind it.

On 6/2/2019 at 12:26 PM, LucasD said:

Tiltback does not save you from cutout, to perform it you need extra power. 

As noted in the brilliant post above by @zeke, switching from acceleration to braking (without tilt-back) requires extra power as well. Even if there is not enough power for a fast tilt-back, the wheel will just use the power it has left. If it isn’t enough to push in front of the rider, the rider couldn’t have started to brake either. I don’t see how a tilt-back could cause either an overlean or a cutout on a modern wheel.

Edited by mrelwood

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

Thank you, @zeke! I have lately participated (my own fault) in too many discussions where physics is considered to be like religion, so one can just decide wether to believe it or not. It is heartwarming to see that this ”religion” still has some supporters after all.

KingSong tilt-back speed is reduced linearly from max speed at 30% to 15km/h at 5% battery (varies by model). Considering that even the battery percentage 0 (and even 100) point is different on different wheels, I think this is just a crude way that tries to stay well under both margins you mentioned. Since the behavior is the same between some models with different top speeds and battery capacities, I’m pretty sure they haven’t applied any advanced calculations before arriving on the mentioned values.

The Gotway approach is still a bit unclear to me. Besides the first two fixed-(at-too-low-a-)speed beeps that everyone switches off, I know it beeps whenever the battery gets below 15% and tilts back at 0%, but I’m not sure wether the ”third beep” is played at a fixed speed, or if there is more elaborate computations behind it.

As noted in the brilliant post above by @zeke, switching from acceleration to braking (without tilt-back) requires extra power as well. Even if there is not enough power for a fast tilt-back, the wheel will just use the power it has left. If it isn’t enough to push in front of the rider, the rider couldn’t have started to brake either. I don’t see how a tilt-back could cause either an overlean or a cutout on a modern wheel.

This is very clear and was even demonstrated not too long ago by a Gotway graph provided to us by @Jason McNeil.  The 3rd trigger point varies based on the speed and battery percent. Each wheel has a different graph.

Anyone who rides Gotway wheels can tell you that the 3rd alarm trigger varies.

Here, I think I found the relevant page: 

 

Edited by Marty Backe

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1 hour ago, Marty Backe said:

This is very clear and was even demonstrated not too long ago by a Gotway graph provided to us by @Jason McNeil.  The 3rd trigger point varies based on the speed and battery percent. Each wheel has a different graph.

Anyone who rides Gotway wheels can tell you that the 3rd alarm trigger varies.

Here, I think I found the relevant page: 

 

Thank you! I had missed that.

”Anyone who rides Gotway...” do not ride past 45km/h on 10% battery, which is why I have never reached the third alarm myself. And based on the speeds you have told yourself riding nowadays, neither do you. But now I know, thanks!

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46 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Thank you! I had missed that.

”Anyone who rides Gotway...” do not ride past 45km/h on 10% battery, which is why I have never reached the third alarm myself. And based on the speeds you have told yourself riding nowadays, neither do you. But now I know, thanks!

But I do hear the 3rd alarm when pushing up little hills and such when then battery starts getting very low. But yeah, in general I rarely hear the 3rd alarm on any of my Gotway wheels, and that's a good thing :D

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38 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

But I do hear the 3rd alarm when pushing up little hills and such when then battery starts getting very low. But yeah, in general I rarely hear the 3rd alarm on any of my Gotway wheels, and that's a good thing :D

I fear hill climbing the most because I don't know if I am pushing too hard up the paved hill roads. I generally go between 17mph and 25 mph up all kinds of hills and never hear 3rd alarm on MSX84v or Monster100v. I have heard the 3rd alarm on flat ground at 30mph after an hour of riding. I have seen videos where the rider is testing the hill climbing capability of an MSX and Monster at low speed and the hill gets so steep the wheel can't go up it (just slowly stalls), yet the alarm does not engage. Will I ever hear a warning on 100% battery going up a 25 degree hill at 30mph. I can never get up enough courage to try that.

Also I have tilt-back turned off (and confirmed its off) and when accelerating fast up steep stuff I feel the wheel adjust the pedal angle upward to maintain level. If the wheel adjusts the pedal angle upward and maintains level, how could an over-lean ever occur? Am I just too chicken to push the wheel fast up steep roads?!!!!!

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1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

hill gets so steep the wheel can't go up it (just slowly stalls), yet the alarm does not engage.

If you check the link Marty provided, it says the 84V MSX will not sound the third alarm under 45km/h. That is, under any circumstance.

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

Will I ever hear a warning on 100% battery going up a 25 degree hill at 30mph.

Nope.

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

Also I have tilt-back turned off (and confirmed its off) and when accelerating fast up steep stuff I feel the wheel adjust the pedal angle upward to maintain level.

I’m pretty sure the MSX still has a hinch of the pedal behaviour from the very first batch. It adjusted to a constant tilt-back of as horrible as 7 degrees, in relation to speed. Needless to say, it wasn’t taken well, and they had to change it immediately. But I still feel a tiny pedal lift centered at 35km/h, which eases above that. This could be the same behaviour you’re feeling.

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

If the wheel adjusts the pedal angle upward and maintains level, how could an over-lean ever occur?

As you mentioned, steep enough hill and the wheel just stalls. That stall is an overlean. The wheel just can’t provide the power required to stay upright. Same can happen on level ground, although on the MSX it would take a huge enough forward lean and acceleration that not many people in the world will ever be able to do. Luckily.

1 hour ago, Michael Tucker said:

Am I just too chicken to push the wheel fast up steep roads?!!!!!

If you are afraid to accelerate faster, don’t. The confidence in your wheel does grow with time. There’s nothing wrong with being considerate or even cautious.

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1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

pretty sure the MSX still has a hinch of the pedal behaviour from the very first batch. It adjusted to a constant tilt-back of as horrible as 7 degrees, in relation to speed. Needless to say, it wasn’t taken well, and they had to change it immediately. But I still feel a tiny pedal lift centered at 35km/h, which eases above that. This could be the same behaviour you’re feeling

Would a new motherboard sort that out?

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First of all - CONGRATULATION !!!

It's not always about the build quality I guess?

The practical riding test will be impressing you much more.

Enjoy !!!

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On 5/31/2019 at 1:37 AM, Marty Backe said:

But I warn you, if you post, "The MSX isn't that much more powerful than the V8", we ain't going to believe you ;)

I just love the way you've commented at above @Marty Backe !!!

Well said, and straight to the point :)

This must be an amazing wheel to ride !!! 

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1 hour ago, stephen said:

Would a new motherboard sort that out?

Only if Gotway has since updated the programming of the firmware. Unfortunately I haven’t heard anything that would hint that they have.

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