Inmotion v10f tiltback untill fall

[Dawid]

I've got an issue.

Sometimes, usually when I accelerate to full speed suddenly, or when I've rode down steep 2-4 m "hill", or there is some rough terrain that wheel needs to adjust it is sometimes starting to "correct" horizon / tilt back until I fall.

I have to slow down then and jump off. After reset/grip button - it's back to normal.

Is that normal behaviour?

[Chriull]

8 minutes ago, Dawid said:

After reset/grip button - it's back to normal.

So the wheel still has the pedals tilted back while standing still?

If so that's definitely not normal - that's some fault! 

[Mono]

6 minutes ago, Chriull said:

So the wheel still has the pedals tilted back while standing still?

If so that's definitely not normal - that's some fault! 

That's the normal behavior of the V8/V10 with overheating or over- or undercharging. The tiltback kicks you off and won't let you on again for some time at least. I can't say whether this is justified here.

[meepmeepmayer]

What is your weight?

[Dawid]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

What is your weight?

94kg

6 hours ago, Mono said:

That's the normal behavior of the V8/V10 with overheating or over- or undercharging. The tiltback kicks you off and won't let you on again for some time at least.

It lets me on seconds after. For me it looks like it want to stabilise me/run tilt back command but just crashes and keeps going until reset. But that's my interpretation.

Does overheating can be diagnosed? And about what temperature of what system I should look at. I can use wheellog to record I suppose.

It happened on different battery levels.

 

[Chriull]

9 hours ago, Chriull said:

If so that's definitely not normal - that's some fault! 

 

8 hours ago, Mono said:

That's the normal behavior of the V8/V10 with overheating or over- or undercharging. The tiltback kicks you off and won't let you on again for some time at least. I can't say whether this is justified here.

Interesting - learned something new. Never rode a wheel with "overheat tiltback". Just once a KS was overheating - but they start beeping continously...

The V10 does not beep like crazy when overheated, "just" tiltback?!

[Dawid]

37 minutes ago, Chriull said:

The V10 does not beep like crazy when overheated, "just" tiltback?!

I personally probably never got warning of overheating (or never noticed one - maybe because I set volume to minimum). I get a lot of "top speed beep" of course.

Wanted to replicate this today and pushed wheel quite hard, but wasn't able to achive (15 min ride, quite fast, empty streets). I received after today/yeasterday ride message after diagnose in app that "top voltage was hit" (or something like that). Maybe I'm accelerating too much after longer ride (because today - nothing)?

 

 

Ok, I think it is indeed overload / overheat then. But for me it's tilting back not foward.

 

If I will have wheelog to share with case of tilt till you fall off - I'll share it. If it will be related to 60-65C motherboard temp - we have a winner.

Edited May 4, 2019 by Dawid

[Seba]

5 minutes ago, Dawid said:

I personally probably never got warning of overheating (or never noticed one - maybe because I set volume to minimum). I get a lot of "top speed beep" of course.

Wanted to replicate this today and pushed wheel quite hard, but wasn't able to achive (15 min ride, quite fast, empty streets). I received after today/yeasterday ride message after diagnose in app that "top voltage was hit" (or something like that). Maybe I'm accelerating too much after longer ride (because today - nothing)?

Fortunately WheelLog supports V10F, so you can log your ride details, including detailed wheel parameters like speed, voltage, current, battery level, temperature etc. There are at least two WheelLog versions you can use:

1. You can any version of WheelLog to record your wheel data, then upload CSV log file to https://wheellogviewer.net/ to analyze data on charts.
2. You can use newer WheelLog (available at https://euc.world/getwheellog), in this way you can choose to record your ride with https://euc.world/ and you'll also be able to analyze your ride on charts. This version may also be used with https://wheellogviewer.net/.

As WheelLog log file is a standard CSV file, you can also import and analyze it using other tools like Microsoft Excel or LibreOffice Calc. But tools mentioned above are much simpler to use. https://wheellogviewer.net/ is made specifically for data analysis and investigation. https://euc.world/ is more universal, but also more general (at least for now).

[Chriull]

32 minutes ago, Dawid said:

If I will have wheelog to share with case of tilt till you fall off - I'll share it. If it will be related to 60-65C motherboard temp - we have a winner.

 

13 minutes ago, Seba said:

including detailed wheel parameters like speed, voltage, current, battery level, temperature

Afaik the V10F has more than one temperature sensor - one somewhere near the Mosfets (at the heatsink?). This is the one relevant for the overheat alarm. But as the value is quite high, inmotion "decided" to show the motherboard/"compartment" temperature in the app. This temperature has no direct correlation with the overheat alarm.

At least wheellog supports different temperatures. Don't know if this "relevant" temperature is logged, decoded or if it is reported by the wheel at all?

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Dawid said:

"top voltage was hit" (or something like that)

AKA overcharging, which should happen when going downhill with fully charged battery.

2 hours ago, Dawid said:

Ok, I think it is indeed overload / overheat then. But for me it's tilting back not foward.

Because you went forward and not backwards?

[meepmeepmayer]

There's usually 3 possibilities for the wheel to do a tiltback:

• Overheating. Then it also says "please get off", as seen in this video at 9:00. So if your wheel stayed silent, doesn't seem this is it. You could check the temperature with apps, though.
• You have some very low speed tiltback set, maybe accidentally. I recommend using the Inmotion app only, resetting all settings, and not connecting any other third party app (like Wheellog) while diagnosing the problem because some app might change some setting without you noticing. But from what you describe, that probably also isn't your problem. Can't hurt to check this, though.
• Overcharging. If your battery is completely full (not 90% or 99%, really absolutely 100% full), and you get regenerative charging from going downhill, the wheel has to stop you quickly to prevent the battery from overcharging. That also doesn't seem to be your problem here, as it also happened at non-full battery.

It seems to me your wheel throws you off because it sees a high voltage drop (on acceleration or rough terrain) or a high current (when going downhill) and is somehow too sensitive to that. I would guess something is wrong with the board and you need a new board. Maybe a capacitor is broken and it has to draw power directly from the batteries, that would explain the overly sensitive behavior?

Did you notice any change in pedal hardness? Is your wheel new and always behaved like this, or did this issue suddenly start one day?

Contact your seller or Inmotion support about your problem, as it seems to be a hardware issue.

-

There's a tiny chance, like any behavior when a wheel tilts the pedals, that it is only a calibration problem somehow. So you could do a nice calibration - keep the wheel upright (not tilted sideways) and still while you calibrate - and see if it changes anything.

Edited May 4, 2019 by meepmeepmayer
link fixed

[Dawid]

Because I'm noob, and cannot post more then 2-3 posts, and sent any messeges - I can't reply on time As modern human-user I beg your likes, or chinese goverment will ban me from life. (coudn't resist the satire )

Anyway. I had exact problem yeasterday. AND I've got logs. log _27 at the end - there is situation I'm talking about. And @meepmeepmayer might gave proper answer...

log _09 is rest of the ride without issues.

On 5/4/2019 at 10:16 AM, Seba said:

Fortunately WheelLog supports V10F

Thank you Seba. Awesome software. Downloaded latest version.

On 5/4/2019 at 2:07 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Overcharging. If your battery is completely full (not 90% or 99%, really absolutely 100% full), and you get regenerative charging from going downhill, the wheel has to stop you quickly to prevent the battery from overcharging. That also doesn't seem to be your problem here, as it also happened at non-full battery.

In this case I was 100% at start of the trip. From what I see in logs it jumps quite big - didn't know that it can jump from 80% to 95%. Just before tilt I was 85-90% avarage I think.

Battery dropped to 30% (!!!) on rather small but steep uphill and then rapid acceleration - hudge power and current rise. I've heard "warning" (and something later, I didn't hear what it was) and tiltback.

Most cases I recall are in simillar conditions: I accelerate, or accelerate after short but steeper uphil or downhill.

 

Below two other moments from same ride that didn't cause errors, but earlier on downhill (same spot) I've accelerated and got tiltback (not this log).

 

Question is: should I be worried? My fault or hardware issues?

 

On 5/4/2019 at 2:07 PM, meepmeepmayer said:

Did you notice any change in pedal hardness? Is your wheel new and always behaved like this, or did this issue suddenly start one day?

Is new, didn't notice any change. I'm new to this, so hard to jurge.

2019_05_04_15_27_09.csv

2019_05_04_15_15_27.csv

Edited May 5, 2019 by Dawid

[Mono]

Consider to accelerate less strongly? Apparently you are drawing >3kW from the battery at the end of the road acceleration part. That might well be on the edge of the sustainable limits of the battery, hence the voltage drop.

Edited May 5, 2019 by Mono

[Chriull]

3 hours ago, Dawid said:

AND I've got logs. log _27 at the end

i cut out the interesting part:

So you had a voltage drop to about 74V from ~82V. For around ~40A flowing thats (82-74)V/40A = 0.2 Ohm. That seems about quite normal.

At 2019-05-04,15:26:10.487 an alarm issued from the wheel is logged: Unknown Alert 3312.00 -3614.00, please contact palachzzz, hex [2302F00CE2F1FFFF]

Edit: if you try this again you could turn on all alarms, beeps, messages on and as loud as possible...

That's exatly the time your tiltback ride started...

To see a bit better what happens i prefer a current over speed diagram:

Here you see your acceleration up until the top right point (~4xA, ~32km/h) and then slowing down quite "straight". After you jumped off, the wheel span up to ~47km/h 2xA...

For your information the current over speed diagram of the second ride:

One sees here too as once the wheel spun up - this is somewhere around the limit line of the motor/EUC (but just at one battery voltage). So your accelerations up to the speed limit ~35 km/h could be already quite near to such a limit line... 

Edit: Please ignore the KS16SS C in the titel of the diagrams...

Edited May 5, 2019 by Chriull

[Nils]

On 5/4/2019 at 7:08 AM, Dawid said:

94kg

It lets me on seconds after. For me it looks like it want to stabilise me/run tilt back command but just crashes and keeps going until reset. But that's my interpretation.

Does overheating can be diagnosed? And about what temperature of what system I should look at. I can use wheellog to record I suppose.

It happened on different battery levels.

As a fellow V10F owner at the same weight it seems to me that you're describing the standard overheat behaviour with the V10F - which unfortunately is not a rare occurrence. The only thing countering this would be that you say you haven't heard the "please get off" warning which seems weird but perhaps explained by your settings, but apart from that it's all normal behaviour - for the V10F that is. I made the "Swedish Hill Test" video referenced by @meepmeepmayer earlier (link with time offset for the overload: https://youtu.be/PVJZ7oR3TfM?t=537). While I let the wheel (and really myself mostly) rest for a while in the video, it is the case that if you just turn the wheel off and on again it will let you on right away so nothing special there.

I wish I could give you any hope of rectifying this; alas it's just the case with the V10F that it's prone to overloads, and particularly for somewhat heavier riders. The current consensus at this point with fellow sufferers (as far as I'm aware) is that Inmotion just skimped on the components for the wheel, and that it's a case of over-heating (as @Chriull mentioned it seems that the temperature reported by the wheel is not from the sensor that really counts). There are a lot of wailing and details about this particular issue in the New Inmotion V10 / V10F thread (which now is at 152 pages, so I understand that no-one has the time to go through that), for instance by @maltocs and yours truly.

In short, the V10F is a lemon in this regard, that's why I now shelled out for the Gotway Nikola (which, as shown in the aforementioned video, has coped wonderfully so far).

Just today I lent my V10F to fellow rider @Icewheel for a ride while riding the Nikola myself, and he got an overload at the start of a steep incline. While I don't know his exact weight I dare say he rides lighter than me (which rides somewhere around 90 - 95 kg, depending on backpack, etc.)

[meepmeepmayer]

Nice graphs!

Hmm, not sure what is going on. I was thinking of a battery problem, but if the others here (who have actual experience with the V10F) say it might be normal behavior, maybe it's just that? Sorry, I can't really help.

Did you ever do a range test? That might indicate if there is a battery problem.

If it does this only after going up hills, it might be overheating. But if it also does tiltback when going regular rough terrain or only going down a hill, that really shouldn't cause any overheating, it must be something else.

Again, set your tiltback speed to some good number to make sure it's not an intended tiltback kicking in if you go too fast.

6 hours ago, Dawid said:

In this case I was 100% at start of the trip.

That's normal, you start at full battery to get the full range It can only be a problem if you go down a hill right away.

[ED209]

I am yet to experience an overload or a cut off on this wheel, as far as I am concerned, the V10f is more than capable, it is a good quality wheel, and not as bad as some of you are making it out to be. For the record I currently own the 100V MSX, Mten3 and have previously owned the 100V Monster as well as the KS18L. The V10f is my go to wheel, it the easiest wheel to live with out of them all, it is just simple. 

Edited May 5, 2019 by ED209

[Dawid]

1 hour ago, Nils said:

standard overheat behaviour with the V10F

I reely doubt now, that it is overheat. It's... combination. Of full battery AND rapid energy consumption. I've got hipothesis that because v10f allows full power draw in area of +85% battery in this "area" he is allowing me to "push the limit", but with kickback of being able to overload.
When I was trying to accelerate really hard one day, to replicate strong power draw - it did no failures (and I had quite a few straight lines) - but I think I was below 85% (route to work, where I usually charge).

To confirm my hypothesis I will gather more logs and post some results here later. With new wheellog and it's autolog, that should be easy.

49 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Again, set your tiltback speed to some good number to make sure it's not an intended tiltback kicking in if you go too fast.

35 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Did you ever do a range test? That might indicate if there is a battery problem.

Never to the full extent, but from what I know, it should give me about 50km. And I've already rode about 20km and battery was around the middle.
And like I said: tiltback is common to me, this is tiltback-get-off-please-NOW

Thank you @Chriull for analysys. Much helpful.

[Chriull]

32 minutes ago, Dawid said:

Thank you @Chriull for analysys. Much helpful.

Thanks. You're welcome. As written before, your V10F is throwing an alarm - if you activate all messaging events you'll most probably know why it tilts you down to standstill.

My guess till now is that the preburdening with the hill and then some serious acceleration just triggers the overheat alarm, because the inmotion measures temperature directly at the mosfets/heatsink. This is were the power is dissipated/heat is generated - so there is little time delay. All the other wheels just measuring somewhere in the conpartment have a much bigger delay until the overheat alarm is triggered - and risk by this burned mosfets... But on the other side ride on (at least until one needs a new motherboard)...

It got more and more seldom that mosfets burned, but still heat managment is the bottleneck of the wheels.

And as your logs look like, you seem to be an very active/sportive rider! 

Could be that another EUC would be a better choice for your riding style - with the new risk of burned mosfets happening ..

[Dawid]

2 minutes ago, Chriull said:

And as your logs look like, you seem to be an very active/sportive rider!  

Could be that another EUC would be a better choice for your riding style - with the new risk of burned mosfets happening ..

This is my first wheel, and I didn't expect it to be THAT MUCH FUN Rule is that if my legs don't hurt, then the ride was uneffective Even if I sometimes feel that "I need more speed" then I think what would happen if I would go faster and fell off... Actually even now top speed is very fast. To get tired I just pick bumpy forest roads where I have to manuver a lot - there I need not much speed, but agility.

But for budget I got - It's very good pick. Thought about Z10 but it's unavaliable in my country, and I don't want to ship it if something fails.

[Nils]

12 hours ago, ED209 said:

I am yet to experience an overload or a cut off on this wheel, as far as I am concerned, the V10f is more than capable, it is a good quality wheel, and not as bad as some of you are making it out to be. For the record I currently own the 100V MSX, Mten3 and have previously owned the 100V Monster as well as the KS18L. The V10f is my go to wheel, it the easiest wheel to live with out of them all, it is just simple. 

To be fair, I don't think anyone is making the V10F out to be a bad wheel in general. On the contrary, from what I've seen owners generally consider it a very nice wheel, good quality in general as you say (but the initial water proofing issue lowers the score here), very comfortable, nice app, etc. It also feels like a very safe wheel for riding - I'd be surprised to hear of a cut-off for a V10F. As far as overloads go however it's a fact that they occur. For some people, yourself included it seems, it's a non-issue since they never had it happen to them. For others it seems very common and for yet others it pops up every now and then. I'd venture to say that it's a combination of rider weight, weather conditions and riding style that determines whether one will be affected or not. Exactly how prevalent this and what ratio of riders are affected is  not possible to determine as there are not statistics for it that I'm aware of. The OP, a heavier rider who seems to enjoy a sporty/aggressive riding style would seem to be a prime candidate for hitting this limitation in the V10F.

[ED209]

@Nils, i think alot of riders choose to ride in comfort mode rather than classic, classic mode runs cooler than comfort.

People should give Inmotion more credit for the V10f. There is no perfect wheel, is there?

Let us not forget that it  is the V10F that started the trend for wide tire on the 16 inch wheels! The Nikola looks lovely, but saying that, it IS an improved version of the V10f,  Shape, power cut off function, Speakers, wide tire, rubber inserts on the footplate. Wide Foot plates, Scorpion style Handle, No originality!

That being said I, love your comparison video and have my eye on the 100V version as I am an aggressive rider.

Edited May 6, 2019 by ED209

[Nils]

15 minutes ago, ED209 said:

@Nils, i think alot of riders choose to ride in comfort mode rather than classic, classic mode runs cooler than comfort. 

People should give Inmotion more credit for the V10f. There is no perfect wheel, is there? 

Agreed, we still haven't seen a perfect wheel, and we're unlikely to do so ever I'd say

Yes, I'd guess most riders would go for the comfort mode. The classic mode seems to have been invented more as an attempt to work around the overload issues then anything else, with the only thing going for it is that it runs cooler (but not cool enough to actually prevent overloads as evidenced by peoples' experiments). Apart from that it seems worse in every regard compared to the comfort mode (see https://www.myinmotion.com/blogs/news/v10-firmware-update-2-2-7 for the comparison table).

For me personally (and for others based on comments here) the V10F could have been the winner of 2018, but for two things: the overload issue, and the lacking water proofing resulting a potential fire hazard. Of the two, the water proofing was definitely the most serious. Overall I don't necessarily agree that people doesn't give the V10F credit (they do and have) but of course the two aforementioned issues have generated a lot of associated negative comments. Inmotion's lack of feedback didn't help there (though Inmotion USA I think came through for all of their customers for the water proofing), so a lot of negative comments also pertained to that rather than the wheel itself. All in all, these are/were legitimate issues, the fire hazard in particular, so I don't necessarily the V10F has been given unfair treatment there.

15 minutes ago, ED209 said:

Let us not forget that is the V10F that started the New trend for wide tire on the 16 inch wheels! The Nikola look lovely, but saying that it is an improved version of the V10f,  Shape, power cut off function, Speakers, wide tire, rubber inserts on the footplate. Wide Foot plate. That being said I have my eye on the 100V version. 

Absolutely, and that's probably why I like the Nikola so much!

[Dawid]

4 hours ago, ED209 said:

think alot of riders choose to ride in comfort mode rather than classic, classic mode runs cooler than comfort. 

What is the change actually? I cant find any specific information about except that comfort mode allows 40km/h and classic 35km/h, and I hit top speed very quick, so I never tried the other one as "comfort mode = better mode" (whatever that means).
 

3 hours ago, Nils said:

Of the two, the water proofing was definitely the most serious.

Can you elaborate on that? My wheel during accident fell into puddle, twice... then I've washed it with hose (as I've read that is has "water protection from direct water, just don't drown it")

[Natasha Miller]

On 5/3/2019 at 3:35 PM, Mono said:

That's the normal behavior of the V8/V10 with overheating or over- or undercharging. The tiltback kicks you off and won't let you on again for some time at least. I can't say whether this is justified here.

Omg are you serious? This is almost the behavior I’ve experienced but I don’t think the inmotion rep understood my issue because he sent me a video on tilting while turning... but it doesn’t tilt while turning, only one day after about 12 miles and a lot of it was on straight long roads so I went fast- I bet it was trying to tell me it was overheating because I was running it hard. Do you know what a high temperature IS? I definitely ride this thing to it’s limits so I’d like to know what’s going to happen if and when it fails on me!  So it hasn’t done this again (yet) which is why the explanation of it doing that when overheating makes so much sense.