KS16S or KS18L?

[null]

I'm looking for a wheel to do some longer trips on mixed terrain, though mostly asphalt. 
Local shop have the KS16S at 1400 US$ , as well as the KS18L at 1850 US$, which is fair considering taxes.

I prefer the dexterity of smaller wheels and my mom (1m60) might be using it as well, so 16" is attractive, while the dirt roads invite to a 18".
Bonus quirck, local regulations limit PEVs to 20km/h, so none of that stable speed is of relevance.

I'm worried the 16S is getting a bit old tech (and the battery cheeks seem wonky), and I feel I should maybe stretch the budget to the slicker 18L.
Putting everything else aside, would the 18Ls more mature design justify the 20% price difference? Any opinions?
 

[eddiemoy]

If you are limited to 20km/h, go for the 16S.  The 18L is both bigger and heavier, really shines when going faster.  When going slower, easier on the 16”.  The 16” is permanent fixture in the trunk of my car.  I use it for last mile or when I park too far.  The 16S will also feel more powerful from a standstill.  

[Micheal Shen]

H, if not all road limit speed up to 20km/h, it would be better to choose KS-18XL 1554wh version equipped with 10inch comfortable pedals. For ladies, KS-16S is better choice, considering its net weight 17.4kg, as well as children.

Quote

 

4 hours ago, Mimolette said:

I'm looking for a wheel to do some longer trips on mixed terrain, though mostly asphalt. 
Local shop have the KS16S at 1400 US$ , as well as the KS18L at 1850 US$, which is fair considering taxes.

I prefer the dexterity of smaller wheels and my mom (1m60) might be using it as well, so 16" is attractive, while the dirt roads invite to a 18".
Bonus quirck, local regulations limit PEVs to 20km/h, so none of that stable speed is of relevance.

I'm worried the 16S is getting a bit old tech (and the battery cheeks seem wonky), and I feel I should maybe stretch the budget to the slicker 18L.
Putting everything else aside, would the 18Ls more mature design justify the 20% price difference? Any opinions?
 

 

[null]

Thanks, yes the weight matter also, its better if mom can get in into the car and me around town (when there).
Good to confirm the 18L don't have some fundamental modernity that justify the cost / weight when 18" isn't essential. I like its wheel to enclosure ratio, silence and slimness, and would like a 16L but that's not happening anytime soon.

If there was a lot of offroading 18" would sell itself, but as it is the most is some gravel road.

[mrelwood]

The available power difference between 16S and 18L is quite huge, 1200W vs 2000W. As there are sudden obstacles on paved riding as well, I certainly would consider very hard if a lighter and smaller wheel is worth the risk. The 16S will hesitate or struggle at a bad obstacle.

You didn’t mention your height or weight, and I am 92kg 193cm, so my experience won’t translate directly. But my only actual crash happened on the 16S when it sank in wet gravel despite the 2.5” tire upgrade and modest speed. That’s what told me that an 18” wheel is in place. The difference to a 2000W 18” wheel is huge, and I have since ridden over potholes, deep diagonal grooves and all kinds of surprise obstacles without a dent in my balance. Riding the MSX is so much more relaxed, in all situations and speeds (above walking speed).

While the V10 is a 16” wheel and heavier than the 16S, it has a 2.5” tire, 2000W motor, and is quite a bit more stable than 16S. Might be worth considering.

Then again, if you are a small and light person, the 16S will be to you what the MSX is to me.

[null]

I'm 75kg with gear so power isn't too much of an issue, I'm used to 500W motors Thanks for the observations, had it only been for me I might have gotten the 18L but considering my mother the more balanced and cheaper 16S might be best.

[Olav]

I agree with @eddiemoy, go for the 16S.

The upgrade from 500W to 1200W will feel like an enormous change, and, unless you were to ride offroad (other than the gravel road), it will be more than enough for your use.

Have fun! 

[eddiemoy]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The available power difference between 16S and 18L is quite huge, 1200W vs 2000W. As there are sudden obstacles on paved riding as well, I certainly would consider very hard if a lighter and smaller wheel is worth the risk. The 16S will hesitate or struggle at a bad obstacle.

You didn’t mention your height or weight, and I am 92kg 193cm, so my experience won’t translate directly. But my only actual crash happened on the 16S when it sank in wet gravel despite the 2.5” tire upgrade and modest speed. That’s what told me that an 18” wheel is in place. The difference to a 2000W 18” wheel is huge, and I have since ridden over potholes, deep diagonal grooves and all kinds of surprise obstacles without a dent in my balance. Riding the MSX is so much more relaxed, in all situations and speeds (above walking speed).

While the V10 is a 16” wheel and heavier than the 16S, it has a 2.5” tire, 2000W motor, and is quite a bit more stable than 16S. Might be worth considering.

Then again, if you are a small and light person, the 16S will be to you what the MSX is to me.

Remember he is limited to 20km/h.  1200w feels stronger on a 16" than 2000w on a 18".  You don't get little to no hesitation on the 16S from standing start.  I also feel the V10 is more like the 18" because the wheel is bigger than 16" and not sure if it is the programming or does 1" make that much of a difference?  if you measure the V10, it is closer to 17" behaves like 18".  

I prefer the KS16 over the V10 if the speed is limited.  The v10 does have a little more stability at higher speeds and a faster top speed.  But then again, he is limited to 20km/h.  

[null]

I don't know what the outer circumference is on 16" and 18", but it probably grows rapidly with the radius, reducing torque and adding capacity for speed. Speed being very limited I might as well have torque. Beside 16" is easier to lug around town when that happens.. Being easier to manoeuvre is a benefit for getting mom interested in continuing (just started learning on a NB E+, other country). I'm not so keep on the chunkiness and noise of the 16S but it seems to be the most adapted (also to restrained budget)

The V10 has a lot of positive points, but if going big and heavy I might as well go for the 18L as price is close here.

Thanks for all your indications!

[eddiemoy]

4 minutes ago, Mimolette said:

I don't know what the outer circumference is on 16" and 18", but it probably grows rapidly with the radius, reducing torque and adding capacity for speed. Speed being very limited I might as well have torque. Beside 16" is easier to lug around town when that happens.. Being easier to manoeuvre is a benefit for getting mom interested in continuing (just started learning on a NB E+, other country). I'm not so keep on the chunkiness and noise of the 16S but it seems to be the most adapted (also to restrained budget)

The V10 has a lot of positive points, but if going big and heavy I might as well go for the 18L as price is close here.

Thanks for all your indications!

you are right, it is almost like the cogs on a multispeed bike.  changing one cog is a difference of 1/2" and makes a huge difference in torque.  Don't worry, the KS16S has in my opinion the best type of trolley handle.  It is right on the center.  No need to lug, just extend and roll around like luggage.  the NB E+ add on handle sucks ass.  It is in the wrong place making trolleying a chore and close to useless.

Yes, there is little reason to go V10.  That is why I sold mine.  I like the lighter 16" for last mile and I like the 18" for long range cruising.  I have no room for the middle of the pack V10F.  But then again, that is just me.  

 

[null]

Thanks for comforting my choice of the KS16 @eddiemoy , while I have a slight regret due to the attractivity of the 18L, this was the choice of reason  So it is ordered, will be in the Kingsong club soon then. Coming from a Ninebot S2 (still a very nice fun wheel) and E+. The NB trolley handles are all wonky!

Cheers

[eddiemoy]

1 hour ago, Mimolette said:

Thanks for comforting my choice of the KS16 @eddiemoy , while I have a slight regret due to the attractivity of the 18L, this was the choice of reason  So it is ordered, will be in the Kingsong club soon then. Coming from a Ninebot S2 (still a very nice fun wheel) and E+. The NB trolley handles are all wonky!

Cheers

Congrats!  You will love it and never ride the ninebot again. Lol

[Circuitmage]

I was really happy with my 16S. Having had both I would also suggest 16S for you.

For me, I am heavier, so the extra weight of the 18L is more welcomed, but the 16S is an amazing machine. The 18L is not quite as nimble as the 18L, and the 16S is a bit more portable in case you want to stow or transport it.

 

[null]

Thanks @Circuitmage !

I learned on a 14" and going to 16" already felt less nimble, so I can imagine for an 18".
Probably great for long distance comfort though, or going faster, which I can't.

Had it only been for me, maybe 18L for the experience, but with mom, family and friends that will try and / or use it it might as well be balanced.
Anyhow there will be some city and bus, so good not to be too massive. Also, budget.

[Smoother]

On 4/10/2019 at 12:36 AM, eddiemoy said:

1200w feels stronger on a 16" than 2000w on a 18"

I can't conform this, but most of the multi wheel owners (Eddie included) feel smaller wheels use their power better (mTen3, MCM5, etc).  As Eddie says an 18" (using a 16" motor) is effectively always in second gear, even at a stop so, I question whether the extra 800W is all available to the rider (at low speeds, or over an obstacle), or somewhat soaked up by being in second gear. Of course the larger diameter mitigates bumps some what, by being able to climb over them more easily. 

And I never had any power issues with my KS14c with only 800W TOTAL, only with the small battery.

I know @Mimolette has already ordered his 16S but I have some thoughts because I am facing a similar decision at the moment.

I have a 16s with large pedals and a 2.5" mod.  A practically brand new 18L is for sale within driving distance of me for a great price so I'm considering a swap.  I have other matters that I should be spending my (limited) money on but I tell myself if I sell the 16S and some other stuff I don't really use, it would not be that much of a financial burden.  But then I got to thinking what are the advantages (to me, at my weight 78kg, and my needs) of an 18L.  Basically, none really.  I don't like to ride faster than 20mph because I don't want to crash faster than 20 mph, I don't want to have to lift 50lbs into/out of the trunk four times for each ride I take, I don't wan't to be less maneuverable, and I don't want to delve into the ongoing 18L/XL problems with trolleying and shaking etc (even thought the wheel in question may not have a problem).

So other than the allure of shiny new things, I need a 18L like I need another hole in my head (but i really want it anyway) self control might have to step its game up here, big time.

 

[mrelwood]

@Smoother, don’t try to fool yourself into thinking that your 16S would be even on the same planet with an 18L! Like comparing a dragonfly to a dragon. Or catfish to a cat. Or... smthng.

Yes, an 18” wheel feels like on the second gear. But don’t think for a moment that your Pinto on first gear has anything up against a Vette on second. Every single horse-watt is right there, it’s more as if the gas pedal had a longer throw; for the same acceleration you just have to push it more. But when you do... 2000 watts man.

If you need practical reasons for an upgrade, the additional stability and bigger wheel allows you to listen to your Sinatra a lot louder and text for a lot longer without looking. 

[Rywokast]

if youre only gonna go 20 km/h then the 18 seems like a waste.. its bigger, heavier, more expensive, way less nimble etc.. yea sure it has a bigger tire which is smoother to ride on but at that speed literally any wheel would be perfectly good.. also on the 16s it may look a bit weird but its really a compact wheel, the side bumps are present in any wheel with this battery capacity or more, just usually the bumps are inside and the entire wheel is thicker instead.. dont let them turn you off the 16s is the most comfortable wheel i have ever ridden and the bumps are in the perfect spot for excellent grip and stability for straights at speed and turning on a dime, but at the same time the majority of the unit is very small and thin so you dont have an awkward manspreading stance lo.. it is my go to for my daily driver and at present i would take it over anything, bonus its still light enough to throw around and easily carry up multiple flights of stairs etc.. the 18 can start to get annoying if you have to carry it any distance

[Smoother]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

listen to your Sinatra a lot louder

  Cheeky bugger! I actually have some but I usually skip it when it comes up on random play.  My iTunes computer is 125 miles away so I don't get to remove tunes very often.  I hear you about the speed and power but I must resist, for now.  I'll probably pick up something in a year.  Besides, the guy with a 9,200km+ 16S in his signature, is not making a very good case for 18"

19 minutes ago, Rywokast said:

if youre only gonna go 20 km/h then the 18 seems like a waste

20 MPH not kph. This whole metric/imperial thing sure messes up some conversations.

[mrelwood]

23 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Besides, the guy with a 9,200km+ 16S in his signature, is not making a very good case for 18"

But... but... I snapped a bolt at 8000!

(Actually, that was rather sharp of you!)

21 minutes ago, Smoother said:

20 MPH not kph.

You are riding your Pinto at top speed, just about to boil the cooler I’m sure!

 

Well, you know I was exaggerating a bunch. Nevertheless, if you indeed intend to hold off for now, don’t give the 18L a try if an opportunity presents itself. Notice how my counter got stuck at the 9200 last July? Just sayin... 

[Rywokast]

32 minutes ago, Smoother said:

  Cheeky bugger! I actually have some but I usually skip it when it comes up on random play.  My iTunes computer is 125 miles away so I don't get to remove tunes very often.  I hear you about the speed and power but I must resist, for now.  I'll probably pick up something in a year.  Besides, the guy with a 9,200km+ 16S in his signature, is not making a very good case for 18"

20 MPH not kph. This whole metric/imperial thing sure messes up some conversations.

huh? "...local regulations limit PEVs to 20km/h, so none of that stable speed is of relevance."

op said kilometers.. but even if it were miles my statement would stand in that thats not nearly fast enough to warrant an 18" wheel imo.. im very comfortable cruising at 40 kph/25 mph on a 16" wheel

[Smoother]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But... but... I snapped a bolt at 8000!

(Actually, that was rather sharp of you!)

Not really, I read, and commented on your snapped bolt thread

You are riding your Pinto at top speed, just about to boil the cooler I’m sure!

MAX 20mph.  I have 3 beeps set a bit before that and never hear them (no, not because of the headphones)

Well, you know I was exaggerating a bunch. Nevertheless, if you indeed intend to hold off for now, don’t give the 18L a try if an opportunity presents itself.

It sounds like a drug; the first taste is free then once you're hooked, "pay up sucker"

Notice how my counter got stuck at the 9200 last July? Just sayin... 

Now that would take an eagle eye for sure. So can I assume the MSX number keeps climbing?

 

[Smoother]

10 hours ago, Rywokast said:

huh? "...local regulations limit PEVs to 20km/h, so none of that stable speed is of relevance."

op said kilometers.. but even if it were miles my statement would stand in that thats not nearly fast enough to warrant an 18" wheel imo.. im very comfortable cruising at 40 kph/25 mph on a 16" wheel

Sorry, my bad.  I thought you were referring to a recent post of mine.  Yes, if the OP was abiding by the local 20kph law, the 18" would make no sense.

[null]

Yes @Smoother you're lucky that you can ride at decent speed, I'm the one limited to kids tricycle pace. It's been interesting to see the different viewpoints, From @mrelwood going for the larger wheel any day (I get the idea of stability and range, why I considered) while I'd be glad with a 14" if the ground was smooth enough (which it rarely is to go any far sadly) 

If anything I'd consider a 18" or 16"with large tire for Paris, while it is a city, the ground is a mix of chunky pavement, random height curb edges, cracks, bumps and seams. I realised this after doing 45km all around (with charge points) and had sore knees for days.

Thanks @Rywokast for conforting my choice, while not the slickest look it is decent and I'll just view it as a tool. One can be good friends with tool objects that just do their job. Looking forward to testing power superior to 500w :) 

[Smoother]

10 minutes ago, Mimolette said:

Yes @Smoother you're lucky that you can ride at decent speed, I'm the one limited to kids tricycle pace. It's been interesting to see the different viewpoints, From @mrelwood going for the larger wheel any day (I get the idea of stability and range, why I considered) while I'd be glad with a 14" if the ground was smooth enough (which it rarely is to go any far sadly) 

If anything I'd consider a 18" or 16"with large tire for Paris, while it is a city, the ground is a mix of chunky pavement, random height curb edges, cracks, bumps and seams. I realised this after doing 45km all around (with charge points) and had sore knees for days.

Thanks @Rywokast for conforting my choice, while not the slickest look it is decent and I'll just view it as a tool. One can be good friends with tool objects that just do their job. Looking forward to testing power superior to 500w

Well technically I can't ride at ANY speed because EUCs are illegal here, so I'm breaking the law just crawling along.

"Paris, while it is a city, the ground is a mix of chunky pavement, random height curb edges, cracks, bumps and seams" This is actually a very good point for a bigger wheel, regardless of max legal speed. England has very rough infrastructure too.  Yet another reason to consider an18" DAMN!

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Smoother said:

Yet another reason to consider an18" DAMN!

I remember when my brother was tossing between another 14” or a 16”, and one aspect I had was that the numerous 4” wide water channels on the pavement where he lived would be less of a burden. A week ago I realized that I’d been riding across the channels (on a 18”) for a minute without thinking about them the slightest.

A powerful 18” wheel goes past a certain threshold that makes many common uneven riding environments a breeze to ride. I think only the latest 16X and Nikola might partially share the ease of an 18”.

Not that it’d be for everyone, except absolutely worth trying.