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The Pedestrian Debatte  

58 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you call out to pedestrians that you intend to pass? Select all that apply to your philosophy. For the purposes of this poll let's assume that you're on a typical sidewalk and you approach a pedestrian walking on the right, providing just about 1.5x the margin to pass safely. The driving purpose of this poll is to get opinions whether the act of warning pedestrians can actually increase the risk to both parties. This is a multiple choice poll to enable a greater explanation of your position. Thank you for participating.

    • Almost always. It's just good practice.
    • Almost never. It's more dangerous than passing quickly.
    • I call out more often than not, evaluated on a case by case basis.
    • I pass quietly more often than not, evaluated on a case by case basis.
    • Opt1: I always try to pass pedestrians at the speed of a casual jogger.
    • Opt1: I typically approach pedestrians quietly and quickly zip past them.
    • Opt1: The speed at which I pass pedestrians depends entirely on the situation.
    • Opt2: I cruise around. I don't do anything extreme on my wheel.
    • Opt2: I am into this as a sport. I carve, shred, go fast, and push the envelope.
    • Opt2: I'm somewhere in between a cruiser and a shredder.
    • Opt3: I have less than 3000 Km under my belt.
    • Opt3: I have more than 3000 Km under my belt.


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11 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

You have to imagine that they only hear “left” because they’re spaced out and thinking about something else. Only after you’ve just gotten out “on your” do they hear you and give you their attention and can only process that you said “left” so of course they’re going to go to their left because that’s what was just said. 

Yeah but I'm not the only person on the planet using the ubiquitous "on your left" or "right" And i'm likely not the first person to try and pass them that day, week, month or lifetime while they are selfishly hogging the path.  No, these people are just stupid and incapable of learning. :D It's infecting the planet.  I once called pedestrians, "the Walking Dead" ; slow, dim witted, unpredictable, etc and I stand by that.

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On 2/24/2019 at 10:09 AM, Rywokast said:

i dont ever call out, i just leave as much space between as possible and will just not pass if there isnt at least 1.5x enough space in case they suddenly shift.. people are often on their phone or distracted and not walking perfectly straight... i pass them at a speed only slightly faster than they are walking and nobody has ever complained

+1 that's exactly how I do it, maximum differential passing speed is about about 4000 x distance / h.

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52 minutes ago, Mono said:

+1 that's exactly how I do it, maximum differential passing speed is about about 4000 x distance / h.

But what if they are taking up the whole path and there are no options to get around.  Will you wait indefinitely until they "decide" to make some room, if they ever do? 4000 x zero is still zero

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9 minutes ago, Darrell Wesh said:

😄😄😄 I find myself just creeping behind them very slowly until I’m close enough that they see me in their peripheral vision and finally move over. All without ever asking them to

That's also a good distance to slap them on the back of the head, should you deem it necessary :efee612b4b:

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26 minutes ago, travsformation said:

That's also a good distance to slap them on the back of the head, should you deem it necessary :efee612b4b:

 

47221366852_85eb6f1583_b.jpg

 

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Posted (edited)

I find coughing helps.  It lets them know someone is there without getting close enough to smell them, and without actually "telling" them to move.. I have a bit of a cough naturally, so I discovered this by accident. Not that coughing to get attention is something I invented, you understand; just put it to another practical use.

32 minutes ago, travsformation said:

That's also a good distance to slap them on the back of the head, should you deem it necessary :efee612b4b:

Good.  I see your anger management classes are starting to bear fruit. :facepalm:

Edited by Smoother
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26 minutes ago, Smoother said:

Good.  I see your anger management classes are starting to bear fruit. :facepalm:

Exactly. Admitting it is the first step towards salvation 🤣

But it's a long, progressive process... You don't want me to have to go through nasty withdrawal symptoms, do you? It has to be gradual, and a mere slap on the head is considerable progress compared to the KS app's "beating mode" 😂

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10 hours ago, travsformation said:

On bike lanes, on the the other hand, I'm a total asshole (you're not alone, 

2pqul4o.jpg

"What a wonderful little pathway just for us, dear!"

2ps23y8.jpg

 

Pedestrians walk along bike lanes, cross them without looking, jump out in front of you with no warning...

I argue the case against dedicated bicycle lanes, because bicyclists travel too fast on dedicated bicycle lanes that aren't actually dedicated bicycle lanes.

Let me explain; a dedicated bicycle lane is a lane that only bicyclists use, and that it's extremely hard for pedestrians and drivers to get into it. On the above examples your bicycle lanes aren't actually bicycle lanes because because at any time both drivers and pedestrians can enter quite suddenly.

Despite the bicycle signage, in reality the above are unprotected sidewalks that pedestrians and drivers can freely enter!

In this context the second picture (the one with the blocked bicycle path) now makes perfect sense, because those metal barriers are there to stop drivers from intruding into the protected sidewalk. Due to the number of Muslim terrorist attacks involving cars, most major European cities (and NYC) now have great expanses of protected sidewalks. Presumably pedestrians on zebra stripes are open season.

Because you can ride a bicycle as slow as you want, or as fast as you want, I would argue for no signage, no dedicated lanes, and no expectations of which side of the sidewalk/shared space pedestrians and bicyclists should use, because you want people (bicyclists especially) to be uncertain and hence slow down.

We want to use "shopping carts in a grocery store" model; no one gets injured or has road rage in a grocery store despite there being absolutely no signs anywhere telling people how to behave.

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3 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I argue the case against dedicated bicycle lanes, because bicyclists travel too fast on dedicated bicycle lanes that aren't actually dedicated bicycle lanes.

Let me explain; a dedicated bicycle lane is a lane that only bicyclists use, and that it's extremely hard for pedestrians and drivers to get into it. On the above examples your bicycle lanes aren't actually bicycle lanes because because at any time both drivers and pedestrians can enter quite suddenly.

Despite the bicycle signage, in reality the above are unprotected sidewalks that pedestrians and drivers can freely enter!

In this context the second picture (the one with the blocked bicycle path) now makes perfect sense, because those metal barriers are there to stop drivers from intruding into the protected sidewalk. Due to the number of Muslim terrorist attacks involving cars, most major European cities (and NYC) now have great expanses of protected sidewalks. Presumably pedestrians on zebra stripes are open season.

Because you can ride a bicycle as slow as you want, or as fast as you want, I would argue for no signage, no dedicated lanes, and no expectations of which side of the sidewalk/shared space pedestrians and bicyclists should use, because you want people (bicyclists especially) to be uncertain and hence slow down.

We want to use "shopping carts in a grocery store" model; no one gets injured or has road rage in a grocery store despite there being absolutely no signs anywhere telling people how to behave.

🤔 so you want to make it harder for bicyclists because cars and pedestrians illegally enter the bike lanes and cause bicyclists to hit them? 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

I argue the case against dedicated bicycle lanes, because bicyclists travel too fast on dedicated bicycle lanes that aren't actually dedicated bicycle lanes.

Despite the bicycle signage, in reality the above are unprotected sidewalks that pedestrians and drivers can freely enter!

Hmmm....I see where you're going, but not too sure I follow the logic. In Spain, the sidewalk is 100% off-limits for bicycles and PEVs. So...as @Darrell Wesh pointed out, just because predestrians and drivers fail to respect traffic rules, we should have no choice but to ride on the road?

Doing that in Spain can be a dangerous endeavour...

(Please don't single out the ONE instance where a car invades a bike lane; all other near-misses are on the road...)

Based on Spanish laws, bike lanes are THE ONLY place where EUCs are allowed to ride, so we don't really hvae much of a choice, and shouldn't have to pay the price for negligent drivers and pedestrians, and terribly planned and implementated bike lanes...(but we do all the same...)

11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

In this context the second picture (the one with the blocked bicycle path) now makes perfect sense, because those metal barriers are there to stop drivers from intruding into the protected sidewalk. Due to the number of Muslim terrorist attacks involving cars, most major European cities (and NYC) now have great expanses of protected sidewalks. Presumably pedestrians on zebra stripes are open season.

Sorry to disagree, but it makes no sense whatsoever and has nothing to do with ISIS;  terrorists aren't a requirement for pedestrians to get mowed down on sidewalks here...it happens fairly often...

But back to the image, leaving a 1m gap in the barrier for bikes to get through wouldn't compromise pedestrian safety. it's just negligent planning (aka Spanish planning). To further prove my point, here's how they fixed the issue:

2ecouf8.jpg

With a freaking arrow...

By law, bicycles don't have to dismount on dedicated bicycle crossings, but ALWAYS on pedestrian crossings. If you look at the image closely, you'll see that the bike lane, to begin with, leads nowhere. Even without the fence, we aren't allowed on sidewalks, so straight isn't an option. This is a one-way street (in the direction of the arrow), so the only option is left, onto the road (where there's no longer a bike lane). The main issue being, bicycles have to yield for pedestrians, and they included no yield sign (bicycles are expected to know the law, even if there are no proper signs, but drivers and pedestrians don't, and can ignore clearly marked bicycle lanes that are painted Red?) .

Also, it would have made much more sense for the bike lane to be on the left and the pedestrian crossing on the right, so bicycles didn't have to yield for pedestrians in the first place. If you're familiar with this particular intersection, you know what to do (even if it makes no sense), but for someone encountering it for the first time, it's incoherent and confusing, and will probably lead to a great deal of completely preventable accidents...

As I said...decent planning would go a long way. But instead, city officials do an incompetent (and dangerous) job, and then place the burden of responsibility on users. Typical...

11 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Because you can ride a bicycle as slow as you want, or as fast as you want, I would argue for no signage, no dedicated lanes, and no expectations of which side of the sidewalk/shared space pedestrians and bicyclists should use, because you want people (bicyclists especially) to be uncertain and hence slow down.

1) That sounds like a case for anarchy :efee612b4b: Perhaps we should just remove lanes, traffic lights and traffic signs altogether so that people slow down out of uncertainty :P

2) In other countries that might work. In Spain, people don't slow down if uncertain. In fact, they don't slow down at all, and when uncertain, they just "claim the right of way" and go for it. Implementing your suggestion would quite possibly lead to a state of national emergency requiring mandatory curphews and martial law :efee612b4b:

Edited by travsformation
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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, tenofnine said:

But I guess what it confusing to read on here is people getting mad about something like Pedestrians being in bike lanes. So it's totally cool for you to take your motorized PEV that has 8-10x top speed of a walking person onto sidewalks but the opposite is infuriating to you?

"Enfuriating" is a bit of an overstatement :efee612b4b:

I can't ride on the sidewalk. I'm aware of it, and avoid doing so. When I do ('cause I have no other choice), I'm extra cautious and don't go much faster than a pedestrian.

Pedestrians on bike lanes is a whole different story. Pedestrians aren't allowed to walk on bike lanes as if it were the sidewalk. The fact that they do so isn''t because they have no alternative (they have nice, wide sidewalks on both sides of the road), but out of ignorance. All users using public roadways, whether they're on foot, bicycle, PEV, car, are under the obligation of knowing and respecting the rules. The fact that's not the case isn't "infuriating", but it is rather frustrating (and annoying). I literally mean it when I say that (here) for every bicycle riding in the bike lane, there are 10 pedestrians walking along it...That would get on anyone's nerves after a while, especially when PEVs are being demonized by the media (here), pedestrians glare at us just because we're using PEVs, and we're the ones respecting the rules while they're not only ignoring them, but completely unaware of them.....

Having to risk getting fined for riding on the road, just because bike lanes aren't a viable option (because pedestrians see them a "a different-colored sidewalk") is fairly annoying...I'll admit it. When (trying to) ride on bike lanes, I occasionally lose my patience, honk, and give people shit. But I'm not breaking the law, I'm not endangering anyone, and I'm not forcing anyone to go out of there way or risk getting fined because I've made it impossible for them to use a pathway purpose-built for them...

3 hours ago, tenofnine said:

treat other forms of transport as you would like to be treated

That pretty much sums up my perspective.  :) It's just too bad that it's not a more widespread attitude...

 

 

Edited by travsformation
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Posted (edited)
On 3/4/2019 at 12:23 AM, Smoother said:

But what if they are taking up the whole path and there are no options to get around.  Will you wait indefinitely until they "decide" to make some room, if they ever do? 4000 x zero is still zero

Yes, 4000 x zero is definitely zero. If they walk in front of me I most often will "wait indefinitely" at walking speed behind them. In my experience, indefinitely is usually far less than a minute in this case. If they stand and block the path I will stop and then, as I would do as a pedestrian and as presumably every other pedestrian would, I will kindly ask them to let me pass.  If I foresee a long and narrow path with no opportunity to pass and they are the only obstacle walking in front of me over the entire path I also will ask politely when they haven't notice me for a while (happens maybe once a year).

Edited by Mono
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NYC is one of those cities that both encourages and discourages bicycling and walking at the same time. However, $50 fines are often given out to bicyclists who move out of the bike lane when a vehicle is illegally parked there, as Casy Neistat famously showed.

@travsformation, I guarantee that if you look closely at your sidewalks and bicycle lanes then there's vast numbers of spots where pedestrians and cars can legally enter on them

--At any street intersection the sidewalk and the street become one.

--Along a sidewalk there are many many driveways that allow cars to freely enter them.

--Alongside all parked cars that are next to the bike lane, drivers and passengers can open their car door then walk into the bike lane.

Bicycle lanes are anything but bicycle lanes when pedestrians and drivers can legally cross them as normal operations. Make bicycle lanes entirely dedicated to bicycles, as we would see with some of Copenhagen's dedicated roadway bicycle lanes, or do away with bicycle lanes entirely. Otherwise, complaining about pedestrians jumping out at you is inappropriate, as it's your speed causing tunnel vision and not some pedestrian breaking the laws of physics to suddenly jump and run randomly.

As for "diversity barriers", it's clearly stated why they are building them.

https://nypost.com/2018/01/02/city-to-ramp-up-traffic-barriers-after-terror-attack/

https://observer.com/2017/11/gillibrand-traffic-barriers-terror-attacks/

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/world/europe/europe-attacks-safety-barriers.html

A key inspiration for the current wave of attacks is the Islamic State propagandist Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, who is believed to have been killed last year in Syria. “Smash his head with a rock,” he urged the group’s adherents in a 2014 speech, “or slaughter him with a knife, or run him over with your car.”

https://www.dezeen.com/2018/02/27/modular-anti-terror-barriers-atg-access-surface-guard-premier-league-football-stadiums/

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/miami-beach/article169485872.html

Nation’s capital overhauls parking restrictions to guard against terror attacks

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2018/02/27/nations-capital-overhauls-parking-restrictions-to-guard-against-terror-attacks/?utm_term=.0a00b171cd9a

Spain considers adding barriers against ISIS in 2017.

https://www.apnews.com/e3950e37f30c42db8d7d3a9fd2ee0c6e

Then adds them a few months later.

https://www.thelocal.es/20170820/after-terror-attack-barcelona-under-fire-over-security-barrier

On the southern end of London Bridge, ugly black barriers make the narrow pathway passable only to the thousands of commuters who hurry across the River Thames every day to the city’s financial district. Early morning cigarettes stubbed out in a handily-shaped hole on top of a barrier have been turned into a soggy mess by rain.

The installation - prompted by a terrorist attack in June that left five dead and nearly 50 injured when a van mowed down victims on the bridge - is complemented by roadside concrete blocks, streaked with red paint after London bus drivers were caught out by the narrowed road.

https://www.thenational.ae/world/europe/europe-s-new-reality-blocks-bollards-and-barriers-to-combat-terrorist-threat-1.622690

Europeans may eventually realize placing a big traffic barrier at their border may be more cost-effective that lining every sidewalk with bollards. 

 

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24 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

Otherwise, complaining about pedestrians jumping out at you is inappropriate, as it's your speed causing tunnel vision and not some pedestrian breaking the laws of physics to suddenly jump and run randomly.

My avg. speed (in bikes lanes) in the city centre is about 10-15km/h, not sure tunnel vision applies there. But it's the speed I feel comfortable with in order to have enough time to analyze my surroundings, anticipate careless pedestrians and avoid accidents (I've had none with pedestrians so far)

As to "pedestrians breaking the laws of physics"...I'd just replace the word "physics" with "common sense", or remove the word "physics" altogether ;)

(I think it would be much simpler if I just take my camera with me on my next ride and show you what I mean. An image is worth 1,000 words...)

My point being...I feel it's justified to complain about pedestrians' carelessness because I don't expect them to do anything I don't do myself, and I don't do any of things I criticise them for doing. "Do unto others as you would have them do to you". Or in other words, common sense, respect, and equality.

I go out of my way to prevent accidents, ride slower than I should have to, and even risk getting fined for riding on the road so as to not run over a pedestrian...is it really that outlandish to expect pedestrians to simply respect the law and adhere to basic rules of mutual respect and coexistence? (It's not like I'm asking them to go out of their way like I do....)

As to ISIS and barriers...I'm an involuntary expert in side-tracking, but even I think that debate is a side-track of a side-tracked side-track :efee612b4b:

On that note...my apologies, @Freewheeler, for side-tracking yet another post. The "Pedestrian Debate" is a hot topic here in Spain at the moment, as new legislation is about to be passed that's going to put EUCs is a very tough spot (vehicle certification, registration, license plates, road taxes...you name it. Will share in the "In the news" thread and quit side-tracking this one). So PEVs are making headlines all the time (in the usual sensationalist, exaggerated, tabloid style), and pedestrians are particularly hostile towards PEVs lately. Feeling so much hostility towards me, when I'm an (overly)cautious rider who respects others & goes out of his way to avoid conflicts with other "public thoroughfare users", who are judging me so harshly despite the fact they're the ones completely disregarding traffic rules and common sense...I gets me worked up. Sorry... :efefb6a84e::facepalm:

Will try to keep my indignation in check (insomuch as possible) :efeec46606:

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