To buy a EUC or a different type of E-Vehicle

[Thai-lad]

37 minutes ago, LanghamP said:

If your steps are three stories or less then an 18 incher is very doable, but four stories or more is hard.

Some days 2 industrial stories ( 4 flights of stairs) and some days 1 (2 flights) - I go to different classrooms.  Seems like a manageable amount that an 18" Kingsong or Gotway could be a viable option for me.  Something I had ruled out previously since I didn't want to chain up the EUC on the ground floor, and in this heat and humidity don't want to carry. ?

[LanghamP]

13 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

Some days 2 industrial stories ( 4 flights of stairs) and some days 1 (2 flights) - I go to different classrooms.  Seems like a manageable amount that an 18" Kingsong or Gotway could be a viable option for me.  Something I had ruled out previously since I didn't want to chain up the EUC on the ground floor, and in this heat and humidity don't want to carry. ?

If the stairs are concrete then an 18 incher goes up them easily. An EUC tears up wooden steps very easily.

[RayRay]

22 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Most places that you work require "handicap accessible", that is, all the areas can be rolled to in a wheelchair or an EUC.

In fact, you can get a prescription from a doctor for a personal assistive electric device, and register your EUC as a PED, and hence get access everywhere. Someone tells you that riding an EUC isn't allowed, you just whip out your doctor's prescription.

Like I've said before, go big or go small. Get a tiny 14 incher or get an 18 incher. Personally, I'd recommend a new rider just get an 18 incher, never a 16, and maybe later get a 14 incher, but an 18 incher just does so much more than the smaller wheels for not much more weight. Most of the 18 inchers have trolleys anyway, and realistically you're only going to lift them from ground to car. 

Seems like recommending 18 inchers for new riders puts a lot of emphasis on performance, but could potentially discourage newbies who might also be weighing other factors such as cost, convenience, and practicality.

I cannot speak to how wonderful an 18 inch wheel is, because I've only owned 14 and 16 inch wheels.

I traded a 840Wh wheel for a 420Wh wheel because the small weight difference made carrying the lighter wheel like a suitcase no problem. (Very practical when using public trans and more convenient than having to trolley everywhere).

[DanCar]

12 hours ago, LanghamP said:

If the stairs are concrete then an 18 incher goes up them easily. An EUC tears up wooden steps very easily.

Would enjoy seeing a video of that.

[Thai-lad]

9 hours ago, DanCar said:

Would enjoy seeing a video of that.

Closest I could find to that concept.  Not a normal building staircase, but does show the possibilities

 

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

2 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

Closest I could find to that concept.  Not a normal building staircase, but does show the possibilities

I've seen this video quite a few times already, I believe the tire pressure is quite low.
I also wonder how high the steps are exactly.

[LanghamP]

14 hours ago, RayRay said:

Seems like recommending 18 inchers for new riders puts a lot of emphasis on performance, but could potentially discourage newbies who might also be weighing other factors such as cost, convenience, and practicality.

I cannot speak to how wonderful an 18 inch wheel is, because I've only owned 14 and 16 inch wheels.

I traded a 840Wh wheel for a 420Wh wheel because the small weight difference made carrying the lighter wheel like a suitcase no problem. (Very practical when using public trans and more convenient than having to trolley everywhere).

I didn't consider buying an 18 incher; I mean I didn't even bother reading any 18 incher reviews simply because I wanted something small and round. Only after accidentally receiving an 18 incher (which I didn't bother even unpacking for a few weeks) did I even try it, and I didn't like the 18 incher at all. I mean, I loathed pretty much everything about it except its speed.

However, after some time as I got better, I started to realize everything I could do on a smaller wheel I could do better on the 18 incher, and safer too. And once I figured out how to lift the MSuper with absolutely no help at all from @Marty Backe then I saw that 18 inchers have all the advantages of smaller wheels with just the disadvantage of bulkiness.

And maybe crash worthiness. However, I've never crashed my MSuper although I see most Gotways are awful crashers. And with the speeds 18 inchers maybe an eBike is the better choice if you need a longer distance.

However, what I'm trying to say is a large wheel is still absurdly compact, and go for the larger safer more flexible option.

We don't often talk about safety when it comes to 14 inchers, but a 14 incher is a crash-fest because the narrow thin high pressure tire gets caught on every little thing imaginable. Look up Brompton bicycles to see how absurdly small a 16 inch wheel looks like, then realize the 14 inchers are smaller and narrower yet. The small apparent difference in diameter between 14 to 18 makes a huge difference in safety.

Now I actually have three 14 inchers because I feel so right on them but that doesn't mean they're appropriate for street usage. They are too slow for the road while being too small for the uneven sidewalks. An 18 incher can go as slow as you want while ignoring sidewalk irregularities while being fast enough to damn near pass cars on the road (in an urban environment). A 14 incher requires great concentration to ride safely, and scanning the road directly in front of you gets old fast. With bigger wheels you usually stumble a bit when you hit an obstacle but you stay on whereas you're often bailing off a 14 incher even before you realize something went wrong.

People rave about the KS16s and the Tesla as perfect do it all wheels, but, damnit, I own the KS and find the 16 inchers have the bulk of the 18 inchers with the instability of the 14 inchers, so you basically crash them on the same obstacles of the 14 inchers but at higher speeds.

When it comes to expense, yes, all wheels are expensive and the 18 inchers much more so. My recommendation is to look elsewhere for funds, and the easiest and cheapest way is to buy a cheaper car. Your median car cost just went above $30,000. This is insane; buy a Kia Forte new or a Toyota Camry used, and take that $15,000 you just saved plus that $4,000 per year less expense, and buy every single wheel from all the big three EUC manufacturers.

Look at this way; you cannot impress people with your $30-50 thousand auto but you will impress them with your $1500 big wheel.

[RayRay]

2 hours ago, LanghamP said:

Look at this way; you cannot impress people with your $30-50 thousand auto but you will impress them with your $1500 big wheel

Well now I just have wheel envy.

(...and I just finished upgrading to 16 inches, but I  guess nobody will be impressed).

Go big or go home!

(Sell your fancy car if you have to, just don't expect props for riding that 'puny' wheel...) 

[Thai-lad]

3 hours ago, Jean Dublin said:

I've seen this video quite a few times already, I believe the tire pressure is quite low.
I also wonder how high the steps are exactly.

Don't know what tire pressure he ran (and not sure how you know) but if he could ride it up those stairs with a combined weight of say 100 kilos of rider and wheel, then removing the weight of the rider should make it possible to go up steeper building stairs at close to a normal walking pace.  Obviously some indoor stairs can be pretty steep and might still be a problem just because the tire might not get good traction.  But from the video it's clear most stairs wouldn't be an issue for an unloaded wheel that size.  Maybe someone with multiple 18" wheels wil make a video?

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

14 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

Don't know what tire pressure he ran (and not sure how you know)

I don't know either, I just believe that would only be possible with a low pressure for it to be able to properly grip to each step.

I'm not an engineer, so, no idea, but maybe there is a topic with some maths around the forum about how high a curb can an average rider go up (without jumping or anything...)

[DanCar]

5 hours ago, Jean Dublin said:

... low pressure to properly grip steps.

With a big enough wheel you would be able to roll on top of a step.  But interesting theory.  Wondering if knobby tires would help.  Or could we have one day special tires designed to grip steps? haha  How about dynamic pressure tires where you can lower or raise the tire pressure as your ride?

[Alex_from_NZ]

4 hours ago, DanCar said:

With a big enough wheel you would be able to roll on top of a step.  But interesting theory.  Wondering if knobby tires would help.  Or could we have one day special tires designed to grip steps? haha  How about dynamic pressure tires where you can lower or raise the tire pressure as your ride?

I couldn't wheel my Mini Pro up the stairs as the tire would just spin and slip before it got a purchase on the ledge.  I since changed to AT tires and can get up some of the stairs i couldn't, but only if it has a good edge on it for the tire to grab.

In the video he is half bunnyhopping by gripping the wheel with his legs, half gaining purchase on the stair with his weight and a lower tire pressure (you can sort of see the deformation as he goes up each stair) to get it up each one with a bit of momentum.

The problem doing this without riding it is getting enough traction to get the wheel up the stair.  Take it slow and you can easily just skid the tire.  Give it a bit of momentum and you run the risk of bouncing the unit and as your not riding it and you can't dampen the force with your body weight.  

I guess what im saying is, each application will vary  

[Thai-lad]

2 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

I couldn't wheel my Mini Pro up the stairs as the tire would just spin and slip before it got a purchase on the ledge.  I since changed to AT tires and can get up some of the stairs i couldn't, but only if it has a good edge on it for the tire to grab.

In the video he is half bunnyhopping by gripping the wheel with his legs, half gaining purchase on the stair with his weight and a lower tire pressure (you can sort of see the deformation as he goes up each stair) to get it up each one with a bit of momentum.

The problem doing this without riding it is getting enough traction to get the wheel up the stair.  Take it slow and you can easily just skid the tire.  Give it a bit of momentum and you run the risk of bouncing the unit and as your not riding it and you can't dampen the force with your body weight.  

I guess what im saying is, each application will vary  

Without trying it myself I obviously can't say anything for certain.  But I would expect to get double the traction from a single wheel device as a double wheel, given the same overall weights.  

More importantly, the point of the questions in my posts was, can 18" and larger wheels reasonably be walked up building stairs without carrying them?  The small 10" wheels of a mini-pro would of course have difficulty gripping a normal stair, as would those of an mTen3.  But the mTen3 can be carried up many floors, unlike a Monster or KS18.  So till now I haven't considered a large wheel to be an option for my staircase bound situation.  I'm sure others have thought the same.  But after this discussion, I'm beginning to think seriously about getting an 18" or even Monster.  And yes, my stairs are cement, not wood.

[Alex_from_NZ]

2 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

Without trying it myself I obviously can't say anything for certain.  But I would expect to get double the traction from a single wheel device as a double wheel, given the same overall weights.  

1

Just curious why you would say this?

2 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

More importantly, the point of the questions in my posts was, can 18" and larger wheels reasonably be walked up building stairs without carrying them?  The small 10" wheels of a mini-pro would of course have difficulty gripping a normal stair, as would those of an mTen3.  But the mTen3 can be carried up many floors, unlike a Monster or KS18.  So till now I haven't considered a large wheel to be an option for my staircase bound situation.  I'm sure others have thought the same.  But after this discussion, I'm beginning to think seriously about getting an 18" or even Monster.  And yes, my stairs are cement, not wood.

I get the size difference, but the physics are the same.  I think you will just need to test it, or get someone to test it and film for you  

[Thai-lad]

2 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

Just curious why you would say this?

I get the size difference, but the physics are the same.  I think you will just need to test it, or get someone to test it and film for you  

Would love to see a video!  

But the physics are very different because the angle the 10 vs 18 inch wheel makes with the stair edge is completely different.  I've rolled enough dolly's loaded with stand-up arcade video game cabinets up and down stairs (back when it cost a quarter to play pac-man) to have a pretty good appreciation of the efforts involved, heheh.  Would have loved to have had a motorized dolly back then...

[Alex_from_NZ]

2 minutes ago, Thai-lad said:

Would love to see a video!  

But the physics are very different because the angle the 10 vs 18 inch wheel makes with the stair edge is completely different.  I've rolled enough dolly's loaded with stand-up arcade video game cabinets up and down stairs (back when it cost a quarter to play pac-man) to have a pretty good appreciation of the efforts involved, heheh.  Would have loved to have had a motorized dolly back then...

Im talking about smaller stairs given the smaller size of the wheel.  Larger wheels obviously will be able to go up larger stairs but the overall limitations will still be the same.  Ie, i could not wheel it up small 6cm stairs (or ledges, whatever) when i had the smooth road tires on, but with the knobbly AT tires it was able to grab the ledge and climb up.  This doesn't work all the time though, often the same size ledge or even smaller will foul me if there is nothing for the tire to grab onto, or the floor your device is on is slippery (wet in my case mainly).  At that point you just spin the wheels.  Taking it at speed lets you sometimes bounce up it, but that bounce is impossible to control with a trolly handle and i wouldn't want to try that with something heavier anywhere near things.. 

Concrete stairs usually have a good edge on them though, something sharp for the tire to grip is the key here.  You might be in luck!  Although i would still say it would be a slow climb wheeling it up a bunch of stairs and carrying a smaller wheel would be easier and faster for you in the long run.

P.S - Im guessing you meant one wheel would get a better grip because of the distribution of weight on two wheels would lead to less tire deformation and therefore purchase on the stair edge.  I see the logic, but i think at the weights of these devices the tire pressure would have to be too low to be a good ride for it to be of real consequence.

[Thai-lad]

3 minutes ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

Im talking about smaller stairs given the smaller size of the wheel.  Larger wheels obviously will be able to go up larger stairs but the overall limitations will still be the same.  Ie, i could not wheel it up small 6cm stairs (or ledges, whatever) when i had the smooth road tires on, but with the knobbly AT tires it was able to grab the ledge and climb up.  This doesn't work all the time though, often the same size ledge or even smaller will foul me if there is nothing for the tire to grab onto, or the floor your device is on is slippery (wet in my case mainly).  At that point you just spin the wheels.  Taking it at speed lets you sometimes bounce up it, but that bounce is impossible to control with a trolly handle and i wouldn't want to try that with something heavier anywhere near things.. 

Concrete stairs usually have a good edge on them though, something sharp for the tire to grip is the key here.  You might be in luck!  Although i would still say it would be a slow climb wheeling it up a bunch of stairs and carrying a smaller wheel would be easier and faster for you in the long run.

P.S - Im guessing you meant one wheel would get a better grip because of the distribution of weight on two wheels would lead to less tire deformation and therefore purchase on the stair edge.  I see the logic, but i think at the weights of these devices the tire pressure would have to be too low to be a good ride for it to be of real consequence.

 

[Thai-lad]

I wouldn't even think you'd extend a trolley handle to take an 18" wheel up stairs.  Just grab the main handle to keep it balanced and then push forward and lift up a bit at the start of each stair, then let the motor do the work of weight lifting.  Internal stairs in stairwells of offices and apartments tend to be much taller/steeper than the ones in the attached video, and shorter, so no chance to get much momentum, barely enough room to stabilize the wheel on each step.  But with a larger wheel, it should be enough. I'm guessing the wider wheel of a Monster makes it easier to keep it from falling over left and right as you're going up the stairs.  But so would the taller form factor of an KS18S.

One wheel would have twice the weight on the tire patch, and consequently twice the friction, as two wheels on a similarly weighted device.  

I'm in luck with the stairs at my work, they all have a rubber non-slip leading edge across the front of each step.  Not everyone will be so lucky   I don't want to play with inflation pressure or use knobby tires just to get up stairs, the wheel should be tuned for optimum riding.

[Mono]

14 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

Don't know what tire pressure he ran (and not sure how you know) but if he could ride it up those stairs with a combined weight of say 100 kilos of rider and wheel, then removing the weight of the rider should make it possible to go up steeper building stairs at close to a normal walking pace. 

I don't think so at all. The rider in the vid does a lot of work to make it happen (and the stairs aren't even very tall). It will be difficult to have enough control on the wheel with one arm and the trolley handle to make that happen. I can ride up much higher single staircases (without jumping) than I can push with the trolley handle only.

2 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

One wheel would have twice the weight on the tire patch, and consequently twice the friction, as two wheels on a similarly weighted device.  

True, but then two wheels have overall twice the friction of one and we are back to zero sum.

3 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

More importantly, the point of the questions in my posts was, can 18" and larger wheels reasonably be walked up building stairs without carrying them?

If the tire always only touches the edge of one or two staircases, I would be cautiously optimistic. If not, I wouldn't take a bet on this one.

I can't even reliably push up low single staircases with a 16" using only the trolley handle. I push the wheel from behind with the foot to get over those. Maybe there is a technique to push up stairs, but I wouldn't know how and it might be difficult to learn and it is a maybe. You also would really want a sturdy handle for this.

[Thai-lad]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I can't even reliably push up low single staircases with a 16" using only the trolley handle. I push the wheel from behind with the foot to get over those. Maybe there is a technique to push up stairs, but I wouldn't know how and it might be difficult to learn and it is a maybe. You also would really want a sturdy handle for this.

With an 18" or larger wheel I'm thinking you don't need to use the trolley handle, just bend over and grab the main "suitcase" handle and pull along rather than push.  The motor doesn't need to lift the weight of the rider.

[LanghamP]

3 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

With an 18" or larger wheel I'm thinking you don't need to use the trolley handle, just bend over and grab the main "suitcase" handle and pull along rather than push.  The motor doesn't need to lift the weight of the rider.

This is what I do with my 18 incher, and have done with the 16 inchers. After the first step you do not need to stoop because the wheel is at a higher level than you.

I've never even tried trolleying wheels up steps because even holding the wheels compacted the wheels feels squirrelly. I alluded to wooden steps because without the weight of the rider the tire can spin quite easily on the edge of the step and just shred the wood like a buzzsaw.

[Girth Brooks]

14 hours ago, Alex_from_NZ said:

I couldn't wheel my Mini Pro up the stairs as the tire would just spin and slip before it got a purchase on the ledge.  I since changed to AT tires

 

I have been considering switching to the AT tire on my miniPRO for over a year now. It is worth the trouble? I hear changing and mounting those tires are a real pain in the ass.

[Alex_from_NZ]

2 hours ago, Girth Brooks said:

I have been considering switching to the AT tire on my miniPRO for over a year now. It is worth the trouble? I hear changing and mounting those tires are a real pain in the ass.

If you use it off road do it, if you dont dont bother.

[Mono]

23 hours ago, Thai-lad said:

The motor doesn't need to lift the weight of the rider.

The motor doesn't lift my weight when I ride curbs up. Again, I can ride higher curbs up with my feet on the pedals (without jumping but with weight release) than I can push the wheel with the trolley over a curb without lifting it. But I also trained riding over curbs much, much, much longer than push over curbs.

20 hours ago, LanghamP said:

This is what I do with my 18 incher, and have done with the 16 inchers. After the first step you do not need to stoop because the wheel is at a higher level than you.

Interesting, it doesn't seem to work for me, I tend to spin out the wheel when I try. Maybe I have to improve the technique. Any hints?

[LanghamP]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

Interesting, it doesn't seem to work for me, I tend to spin out the wheel when I try. Maybe I have to improve the technique. Any hints.

You are placing the wheel firmly against two steps, then tilting the wheel forward so it climbs by itself to the next step? And so on? There is the danger of the tire spinning out, that can be stopped by not tipping the wheel forward anymore although you might still tear up the step.