Gotway MSuper X arrived

[Marty Backe]

14 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Good info, thanks.  I will give it a try soon.  I'm guessing it will let me get a little ahead of it with an initiated lean forward.

Well maybe.  Riding slow on the Ninebot I usually lock my knees unless I'm on grass or dealing with the many pot-holes of Syracuse NY (snowiest city, 115"/year average ).   During the 7 miles so far, with knees locked on smooth roads it seems to be over-stiff above 25 kph... bent knees didn't change that until I thought of the knee-squeeze and then I could really accelerate it... 

Also, when I jump on its super-sluggish/stiff compared to the 9-bot-e+... and the same knee squeeze/lean changes that impression too.  

edit/add:

FWIW, the 9-bot-e+ feels like it has way more torque within its speed range ... though it leans alot further forward in the process (so mrelwood's suggestion for medium or soft may fix my perceived issue).

Well, everyone has different techniques. I just wanted to let you know that the Gotway wheels do not require any shell squeezing to move fast. It's all about leaning the body

 

[Elliott Reitz]

10 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

We can stop talking about the button modes - that's maybe confusing the issue 

It occurs to me - are you scrolling the screen that has the 5-modes? Maybe you're not scrolling it and therefore don't see all 10+ modes?

OK thank you, you're correct!  That app page has a scroll so it allows selection of LED0 through LED9.  I had only previously noticed 5 (uncontrolled). HOWEVER, the app LED modes LED3-9 are dark now.  Maybe because I toggled the headlight via the app (?).   Earlier today when I first tried the app I tried the 5 LED modes I saw in the app and they were each different

[Elliott Reitz]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Well, everyone has different techniques. I just wanted to let you know that the Gotway wheels do not require any shell squeezing to move fast. It's all about leaning the body

 

I lean like that all the time on my 9-bot-e+.  The MSX just seemed too stiff to get it lean like that.  Maybe its just that I've not developed the "trusting the wheel" on my MSX yet.  Though cruising at 25 kph and going toward 30 I had better than 90% of my weight on the balls of my feet with toes hanging over.

Also I should note on the 9-bot-e+ there was a similar feel where getting above 10 kph (to its 18 kph tilt-back) required too much toe-weight until I extended my peddles.  Neither case feels impossible... just that I'm out of peddle space for a slow gradual speed increase.

edit/add:  That's why I purchased the Nikola peddles with the MSX.  They are bigger and do help, but I guess I just want yet more peddle under my big toes.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz

[stephen]

29 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I lean like that all the time on my 9-bot-e+.

You forward lean like that on an E+ with a small motor how much do you weigh 50kg😁 i don't think I'd lean like that on my msx

Edited July 31, 2019 by stephen

[Elliott Reitz]

1 minute ago, stephen said:

You forward lean like that on an E+ with a small motor how much do you weigh 50kg😁 i don't think I'd lean like that on my msx

Yes, I do forward lean like that when I'm showing off on the E+, and with full gear I'm just under 200 lbs (90 kg).  With only 7 miles on my MSX I still have the impression the E+ has more torque, though a softer mode will obviously help the rapid accel/torque perception.   

As we've heard "trust the wheel", I do trust the E+ with over 500 miles on it.  As for the MSX, I've yet to develop that trust in it.   With my 7 miles in rain I did do some potholes and grass and syracuse-f'd-up sidewalks that helped that confidence quite a bit. 

[stephen]

2 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Yes, I do forward lean like that when I'm showing off on the E+, and with full gear I'm just under 200 lbs (90 kg).  With only 7 miles on my MSX I still have the impression the E+ has more torque, though a softer mode will obviously help the rapid accel/torque perception.   

As we've heard "trust the wheel", I do trust the E+ with over 500 miles on it.  As for the MSX, I've yet to develop that trust in it.   With my 7 miles in rain I did do some potholes and grass and syracuse-f'd-up sidewalks that helped that confidence quite a bit. 

E+ has a smaller wheel and lighter so it might want to set off faster I'm 90kg also i just thought the E+ wouldn't have the power to keep you upright, i get scared on my msx when i forward lean heavy and my Pebble watch starts buzzing and i brick it and ease off .. Once your going on the msx the power is instant and smooth ,,i like that😊

[Marty Backe]

45 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I lean like that all the time on my 9-bot-e+.  The MSX just seemed too stiff to get it lean like that.  Maybe its just that I've not developed the "trusting the wheel" on my MSX yet.  Though cruising at 25 kph and going toward 30 I had better than 90% of my weight on the balls of my feet with toes hanging over.

Also I should note on the 9-bot-e+ there was a similar feel where getting above 10 kph (to its 18 kph tilt-back) required too much toe-weight until I extended my peddles.  Neither case feels impossible... just that I'm out of peddle space for a slow gradual speed increase.

edit/add:  That's why I purchased the Nikola peddles with the MSX.  They are bigger and do help, but I guess I just want yet more peddle under my big toes.

 

I don't know, I continue to be puzzled by your descriptions. I'm never on the balls of my feet. My feet are flat on the pedals and I just shift my weight forward or backward.

Chime in here guys. Am I off my rocker or what?

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I lean like that all the time on my 9-bot-e+.  The MSX just seemed too stiff to get it lean like that.  Maybe its just that I've not developed the "trusting the wheel" on my MSX yet.  Though cruising at 25 kph and going toward 30 I had better than 90% of my weight on the balls of my feet with toes hanging over.

Also I should note on the 9-bot-e+ there was a similar feel where getting above 10 kph (to its 18 kph tilt-back) required too much toe-weight until I extended my peddles.  Neither case feels impossible... just that I'm out of peddle space for a slow gradual speed increase.

edit/add:  That's why I purchased the Nikola peddles with the MSX.  They are bigger and do help, but I guess I just want yet more peddle under my big toes.

 

That picture was kind of a joke. Like @stephen, I'd be a bit nervous doing that on any of my wheels and I weigh a lot less than you.

Stay safe.

Edited July 31, 2019 by Marty Backe

[stephen]

11 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

As we've heard "trust the wheel", I do trust the E+ with over 500 miles on it

I don't think I'd be to trusting with the E+ to forward lean like that just be careful 500 miles isn't a lot of miles don't be too trusting

3 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't know, I continue to be puzzled by your descriptions. I'm never on the balls of my feet. My feet are flat on the pedals and I just shift my weight forward or backward.

Chime in here guys. Am I off my rocker or what?

Yes you are off your rocker but not for that statement though 😁 

Only time i end up with my heels off the pedals is when going up steep hills otherwise usually flat just lifting off briefly when accelerate hard pushing the wheel ,and then it's usually with one foot more than the other that lifts off,, i alternate my feet allot when riding in acceleration

[Marty Backe]

2 minutes ago, stephen said:

I don't think I'd be to trusting with the E+ to forward lean like that just be careful 500 miles isn't a lot of miles don't be too trusting

Yes you are off your rocker but not for that statement though 😁 

Only time i end up with my heels off the pedals is when going up steep hills otherwise usually flat just lifting off briefly when accelerate hard pushing the wheel ,and then it's usually with one foot more than the other that lifts off,, i alternate my feet allot when riding in acceleration

Thanks, I think 

[Elliott Reitz]

I have a Siberian Husky.  When it gets colder he runs faster than my 9-bot-e+ can go (his top speed is faster than my e-bike too and it goes 25 mph)..   But my new MSX will be able to keep up with his love of running! 

 

[stephen]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

Thanks, I think 

[Elliott Reitz]

22 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I don't know, I continue to be puzzled by your descriptions. I'm never on the balls of my feet. My feet are flat on the pedals and I just shift my weight forward or backward.

Chime in here guys. Am I off my rocker or what?

I have a strange walk like my father does ... I think my pelvis has a odd shape... I probably have an unusual weight balance across my feet (edit+:  or maybe just my perception of it). 

15 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

That picture was kind of a joke. Like @stephen, I'd be a bit nervous doing that on any of my wheels and I weight a lot less than you.

Stay safe.

I seriously do do that on the e+.  Like I sad, mostly while showing off whenever offering someone an opportunity to try my wheel.  I've let about 50 people try so far (only 2 girls tonight tailgating).  Others often say "oh no I'd keeel myself".  Other things I hear people say include "awesome" and more lately "I've seen him" or "there's that guy on that..."

FWIW, I have 3 hoverboards that I got before my 1st EUC.  1st was an 8" wheeled "hummer" model... its quick and doesn't tilt much, 2nd a 9" with dual paddles (no center twist).  Its a lilttle softer and leans in more.  Then I got the cheapest model (to fit within doorways in the house).  That one leans in like crazy (its too soft) ... and scares the hell out of me anytime I take it outdoors or get more aggressive in the house (it over-leans for the torque it has to catch up to my weight).

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz

[stephen]

4 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I seriously do do that on the e+.  Like I sad, mostly while showing off

Bad things happen when showing off but looking at your video it looks like your more bending over than leaning , i think what we are trying to say here just be careful as the E+ doesn't have the power and we'd hate you to faceplant if the motor cuts out due to overlean ,, stay safe 👍👍

[Elliott Reitz]

 

36 minutes ago, stephen said:

I don't think I'd be to trusting with the E+ to forward lean like that just be careful 500 miles isn't a lot of miles don't be too trusting

Yes you are off your rocker but not for that statement though 😁 

Only time i end up with my heels off the pedals is when going up steep hills otherwise usually flat just lifting off briefly when accelerate hard pushing the wheel ,and then it's usually with one foot more than the other that lifts off,, i alternate my feet allot when riding in acceleration

Sure I only have 500 miles, and lots have 10x that.  Though I do have over 100 hours on it.  My average speed has only been 5 mph since most of that mileage has been with my dog in the hot summer.  He runs faster in winter but I wasn't riding it much with him last winter because I didn't yet have the confidence I do now. 

My heels aren't lifting other than foot-shuffling.  Getting my ride durations up to 2 hours without any stops I've learned to keep my feet shifting weight.  Like toe-weigth on one foot with heel weight on the opposite... then switch.  Also I sometimes do toes in, toes out, stand more forward, stand more back.  Those toe-extensions I shared-in-pic above help that alot (though they're just a bit higher than I want them, which is a compromise vs remaking them).

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
removed an extra quote

[Elliott Reitz]

43 minutes ago, stephen said:

Bad things happen when showing off but looking at your video it looks like your more bending over than leaning , i think what we are trying to say here just be careful as the E+ doesn't have the power and we'd hate you to faceplant if the motor cuts out due to overlean ,, stay safe 👍👍

The e+ does have the torque to for me to lean in amazingly (IDK if I even could lean in more than I have, I seriouly have).  I've learned to trust it that way on pavement.  On grass and snow I've also fallen that way. 

As for showing off, well good at doing that without getting myself hurt (ie: I pray, and keep my risk perception below 80% like they teach at NYST track-days).  I was that kid on the 20" bike that set up jumps and laughed at my friends crashes... bent my peddles with a 10' jump when I was 5 too, rode motocross and yes I have a motorcycle that can do a 9s 1/4 mile (I've not had it to a track (rented a slower GSXR-600 track bike) and I'm enjoying EUCs more than my EBR 1190sx that has 220 hp in 400 lbs).

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
tweeks, +pic

[stephen]

16 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

The e+ does have the torque to for me to lean in amazingly (IDK if I even could lean in more than I have, I seriouly have).  I've learned to trust it that way on pavement.  On grass and snow I've also fallen that way. 

As for showing off, well good at doing that without getting myself hurt (ie: I pray, and keep my risk perception below 80% like they teach at NYST track-days).  I was that kid on the 20" bike that set up jumps and laughed at my friends crashes... bent my peddles with a 10' jump when I was 5 too, rode motocross and yes I have a motorcycle that can do a 9s 1/4 mile (I've not had it to a track (rented a slower GSXR-600 track bike) and I'm enjoying EUCs more than my EBR 1190sx that has 220 hp in 400 lbs).

Ok👍

[Marty Backe]

24 minutes ago, Elliott Reitz said:

The e+ does have the torque to for me to lean in amazingly (IDK if I even could lean in more than I have, I seriouly have).  I've learned to trust it that way on pavement.  On grass and snow I've also fallen that way. 

As for showing off, well good at doing that without getting myself hurt (ie: I pray, and keep my risk perception below 80% like they teach at NYST track-days).  I was that kid on the 20" bike that set up jumps and laughed at my friends crashes... bent my peddles with a 10' jump when I was 5 too, rode motocross and yes I have a motorcycle that can do a 9s 1/4 mile (I've not had it to a track (rented a slower GSXR-600 track bike) and I'm enjoying EUCs more than my EBR 1190sx that has 220 hp in 400 lbs).

Whoever was filming you at that tailgate party? Get them to film you doing one of those leans. We need to see if you're doing a real Michael Jackson or more bending at the waste  That would explain a lot.

We've had cases in the past of other people who would complain that they couldn't get the wheel to move very fast and it turned out that they were bending at the waste instead of bending at the ankles.

[Elliott Reitz]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Whoever was filming you at that tailgate party? Get them to film you doing one of those leans. We need to see if you're doing a real Michael Jackson or more bending at the waste  That would explain a lot. 

We've had cases in the past of other people who would complain that they couldn't get the wheel to move very fast and it turned out that they were bending at the waste instead of bending at the ankles.

{+} She was just a fan, I didn't know her.  Though per your request, maybe a stationary camera vid next time out on the e+... on the MSX I need more time to "trust the wheel" that way, especially after first impressions on stiff mode.

I may have done that (waist bending) on my MSX today, but not on the 9-bot-e+.  Seriously, I demonstrate to anyone who wants to try my wheel (that one is cheep enough).  I've had 5 people succeed at it it too.  Anyway, I show them "jump on, then lean for speed so you can balance", and occasionally I really really lean in.  Also Ive done rapid deceleration lean-back like that on it too.  And now that I think of it I actually did over-lean on it backwards (breaking) and skidded on my ass over it one time too (my GF's dog wasn't yet leash trained enough and darted in front of me).   {+} and then the wheel drove itself directly into my lap (thankfully missing my b###s).

{edit add:} I did do some mild lean-back then lean-in for stop signs today, but not at all agressive like I've learned to trust the 9-bot-e+.  I guess I just need to learn to trust this wheel by pushing my trust limits incrementally.  Note I didn't say it cant lean... my complaint was more about gradual acceleration.  No I haven't torque tested this wheel either though I do think the medium setting will probably work better for me (will try it soon, since it seems so stiff/sluggish in comparison to the e+ below 10mph).

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
added "one time", add

[Elliott Reitz]

As far as maxmium lean-in angle possible, I think the max-slope ratings are related to the 0 mph dead-lift wheel capabilities.  In that the MSX is rated 25 degrees while the 9-bot-1e+ is only rated 20 degrees.  How are they related?  Well the slope with constant speed at an angle = required torque to sustain travel at that angle.  Though realize its only 'related because speed while delivering the torque changes per the speed in the motor.

{+} The motor-power rating is more like a max HP (e+ is 500w, vs the MSX 2000W).  Max torque is more about the motor design and max current (battery resistance limit to current at voltage).

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
watts

[mrelwood]

 

4 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I think the max-slope ratings are ...

... bull. Seriously, they are just random numbers. Some low powered EUCs may claim 30 degree angles, while some high powered ones say 20 degrees. Way too many variables to compare them. Would be cool if they were standardized though.

One thing came to mind regarding leaning. On a 16” wheel it’s easy enough to lean far beyond the tire front end anyway, so foot position is not very important. On the MSX I find that foot positioning is crucial, as it’s all about the balance between fast acceleration and fast braking capability.

Since you come from a smaller wheel, you might have your feet too far back for a proper acceleration on the MSX. A decent starting point is to level the back of one’s shoes with the rear end of the pedals.

Offset feet may work well also, one feet at least an inch more forward than the other, and use the forward foot as the main ”acceleration pedal”, and the other as a main ”brake pedal”.

That being said, I did not realize the amount of power the MSX has until I built my first raised side pads. When my knees jerked the wheel forward from the sidepads in a small bump in the road, the MSX just said ”hum, ok, let’s go”. I have since learned to trust the power of the wheel, but without the sidepads I would be at the edge of my balance even when keeping a steady speed at a medium incline.

But on a level surface they are absolutely not a requirement for a decent acceleration all the way up to 50km/h.

 

4 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

Max torque is more about the motor design and max current (battery resistance limit to current at voltage).

Not quite.

(I’m sorry this got long. I know that I’m not good in explaining this, so I try to be as clear as I can.)

Until the wheel gets overleaned and you crash, all wheel parameters are under the maximum ratings. If you don’t overlean a 500W wheel, the 500W has not been limiting your acceleration. It is a nominal sustained max power handling rating. Meaning, a 500W motor can give three or more times the rated wattage during a short acceleration.

The perceived torque derives from the amount of acceleration for the given effort. If you only lean a little from your ankles and the wheel accelerates fast, you perceive it as a lot of torque. In reality, the wheel will only put out as much torque or power that is required to keep the wheel upright. That means that the rider’s lean is the only way to get any power out of the wheel, and the amount of the lean decides how much power the wheel must apply.

A larger wheel requires more leaning to get it out of balance, and to get the same amount of acceleration that on a smaller wheel. It is 90% about the geometry (tire diameter), and 10% about the firmware behaviour (if I’m being genorous).

The motor doesn’t affect the perceived torque/power/acceleration/zippyness enough to take part in the discussion. It doesn’t decide anything, only reacts to the power given. When the wheel tilts forward, firmware tells the mainboard to put more power to the motor. When motor gets more power, it spins faster, and the wheel no longer tilts forward. That’s all there is to the functionality of the motor.

[Elliott Reitz]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Since you come from a smaller wheel, you might have your feet too far back for a proper acceleration on the MSX. A decent starting point is to level the back of one’s shoes with the rear end of the pedals. 

No.  With my toes over my heals are about 1/2" from the back of the Nikola peddles on the MSX.  Its similar on the e+.  And yes I've tried standing yet more forward and its not sustainable because then my full weight sits on my heels into my arches (heels get numb).   With my peddle extension on the e+ I still have a small amount of toe-overhang, but way less... and that wheel has smaller peddles.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

... .. bull. Seriously, they {max slope ratings} are just random numbers. Some low powered EUCs may claim 30 degree angles, while some high powered ones say 20 degrees. Way too many variables to compare them. Would be cool if they were standardized though. 

I doubt they're just random numbers.  I think they're supposedly the max slope a wheel can continuously climb in a worst-case situation (minimum speed, max weight rider).  And as for torque, the wheel diameter does directly affect that... so same torque on a smaller wheel gets more slope. 

A great test case would be to actually measure the max slope.  For example, take a thick sheet of plywood w/ non-stick surface on it, and hand rails.  Then gradually increasing its slope while testing each available wheel's ability to climb up it.  Less controlled is our perception... such as "I've climbed 40 degree slopes on my 9-bot-1e+ (steepest road surfaces of Syracuse including university hill).

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Not quite.... The motor doesn’t affect the perceived torque/power/acceleration/zippyness enough to take part in the discussion.

See the torque equation.  We don't know the Kt ratings of any of these wheels because manufacturers haven't shared them.  So regardless the wheel diameters Kt can be tweeked to effect torque (and the associated feel of it).  For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the monster feels more torquey than an MSX because the monster has lower top-speed with mostly same specs otherwise.  They must have selected a higher Kt for that wheel (more separate poles in the motor), while sacrificing max speed (which is more limited by the slew-rates in the MOSFETS delivering a speed sustaining duty cycle). 

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

One thing came to mind regarding leaning. On a 16” wheel it’s easy enough to lean far beyond the tire front end anyway, so foot position is not very important. On the MSX I find that foot positioning is crucial, as it’s all about the balance between fast acceleration and fast braking capability.

Since you come from a smaller wheel, you might have your feet too far back for a proper acceleration on the MSX. A decent starting point is to level the back of one’s shoes with the rear end of the pedals.

No, my toes hang over the front and when I move my feet back I don't have enough forward weight to keep my speed (on either wheel)... and my only over-lean experience was breaking.  I also shuffle my feet fwd-back, side-side, toe-heal, weight-side, for endurance.  The staggered feet for accel/break works a little but I can't stand that way for more than a few minutes.  Without the Nikola peddles I would already be adding parts of a snow-shovel onto the foot plates. 

https://www.groschopp.com/how-to-calculate-your-torque-constant/

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
add link

[stephen]

1 hour ago, Elliott Reitz said:

No.  With my toes over my heals are about 1/2" from the back of the Nikola peddles on the MSX.  Its similar on the e+.  And yes I've tried standing yet more forward and its not sustainable because then my full weight sits on my heels into my arches (heels get numb).   With my peddle extension on the e+ I still have a small amount of toe-overhang, but way less... and that wheel has smaller peddles.

I doubt they're just random numbers.  I think they're supposedly the max slope a wheel can continuously climb in a worst-case situation (minimum speed, max weight rider).  And as for torque, the wheel diameter does directly affect that... so same torque on a smaller wheel gets more slope. 

A great test case would be to actually measure the max slope.  For example, take a thick sheet of plywood w/ non-stick surface on it, and hand rails.  Then gradually increasing its slope while testing each available wheel's ability to climb up it.  Less controlled is our perception... such as "I've climbed 40 degree slopes on my 9-bot-1e+ (steepest road surfaces of Syracuse including university hill).

See the torque equation.  We don't know the Kt ratings of any of these wheels because manufacturers haven't shared them.  So regardless the wheel diameters Kt can be tweeked to effect torque (and the associated feel of it).  For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the monster feels more torquey than an MSX because the monster has lower top-speed with mostly same specs otherwise.  They must have selected a higher Kt for that wheel (more separate poles in the motor), while sacrificing max speed (which is more limited by the slew-rates in the MOSFETS delivering a speed sustaining duty cycle). 

No, my toes hang over the front and when I move my feet back I don't have enough forward weight to keep my speed (on either wheel)... and my only over-lean experience was breaking.  I also shuffle my feet fwd-back, side-side, toe-heal, weight-side, for endurance.  The staggered feet for accel/break works a little but I can't stand that way for more than a few minutes.  Without the Nikola peddles I would already be adding parts of a snow-shovel onto the foot plates. 

https://www.groschopp.com/how-to-calculate-your-torque-constant/

[Elliott Reitz]

So I just finished my 3rd ride (20.5 miles).  I went around Onondaga lake and yea twice got hassled (park maintenence says no motorzed... bla bla)... then construction zone guy...

As for the above dialog:

1.  The MSX has earned my "Trust the wheel". 

2.  It is much harder to get it to lean in that the e+ (per someone's comment of that on bigger wheels).  That means that jumping on and getting moving is still harder for me on the MSX (compared to e+), especially until I get my feet shuffled to a comfortable place. 

3.  Foot positions & footwear:  Like my 2nd ride I wore my hiking boots which are much stiffer than shoes... they allow me to get use out of my toes and distribute my weight better even though I do overhang the front (heels pretty close to even in the back).

4.  I took it up to 40 kph a few times.  At that point my eyes start to water and the wind noise sucks... and since I'm just riding to enjoy the scenery my comfort speed is 25 to 30 kph (20 mph).   Id be comfortable going faster on smooth roads if I had earplugs and goggles (mororcycle equipment.

5. I have 70% battery remaining after 20.5 miles.  IF the battery remaining is accurate to distance then it means I would get about 50 miles before it slows or beep warns.

{+}

6. It did a 40 degree slope while accelerating up the hill.

7. I got two hassles on the trip.  Firs was park maintenance staff standing along the trail and asked me to stop ... told me rules .... I made good arguments and they didn't come through with their office phone number.   Then they let (didn't make me walk) me continue.  The 2nd was a bull-dozer driver who wanted me out of his "construction site not a bike path". 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Elliott Reitz
add 6,7

[mrelwood]

 

16 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

I doubt they're just random numbers.  I think they're supposedly the max slope a wheel can continuously climb in a worst-case situation (minimum speed, max weight rider).

For some manufacturers it’s the worst case scenario, for some other it may be the best case scenario, or anywhere in between.

16 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

A great test case would be to actually measure the max slope.

Having been several weeks without riding my MSX due to an extremely steep hill toasting the board and motor, I urge anyone to consider the worst case consequencies before executing such tests. 

16 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

We don't know the Kt ratings of any of these wheels because manufacturers haven't shared them.

We don’t need them to calculate the motor output force at any given moment. You must consider what determines the amount of power the motor is given.

16 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

For example, I wouldn't be surprised if the monster feels more torquey than an MSX because the monster has lower top-speed with mostly same specs otherwise.

Just watched a 100V Monster vs 100V Nikola review by Alien Rides, where he also mentioned that the MSX acceleration was far more responsive than on the Monster. No surprise there.

16 hours ago, Elliott Reitz said:

The staggered feet for accel/break works a little but I can't stand that way for more than a few minutes.

I imagine you are feeling pretty much how I also did when I got my MSX. It just takes time to become familiar with the new, much more physical riding style.