Scully

Puncture on MSuper V3

41 posts in this topic

6 minutes ago, Mono said:

For me, only to figure out where the leaks in a tube are, I often need to scrutinise the entire tube while using a water bath or liquid soap to accelerate the process.

Yeah, that can be an issue - But if you don't do all that, don't disassemble it all right away you can often find the problem. When that is the case you can fix it with out a lot of BS. You can use a wax/grease crayon to mark the hole when you find it
Often you can see the thorn or glass or nail or what ever, sometimes you can hear/feel it hissing (add more air!). You should generally ensure that what ever punctured your tube is not still embedded in the tire casing, so you will have to 'find the problem' if you can.
It is the slow leaks that are the real pains in the butt. A good strong hole is easier to find and easy to fix.
You can use the water bath method with the wheel still mounted to the EUC...Often you can find it by ear with no water.
If you do take your wheel out of the EUC and the tire off the rim, then take some time to make sure the inside of the rim is very smooth or covered with a rim strip - That way you can confine your punctures to the rolling surfaces of the tube...
Use talcum powder before assembly.

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Roll Model said:

When you ask a quantitative question the answers become rather meaningless

However, quantitative questions are more often than not the only meaningful questions. 

The question is not whether 120g added weight makes the ride less efficient, which it surely trivially does. The question is whether 120g added weight makes a difference of 0.1W or 1W or 10W or 100W on average. The answer is probably closer to 0.1W than to 1W.

On the other hand, if you have a Kevlar protected high-end puncture-proof tire on your wheel I concur that there is no need to worry about Slime. I don't think though that that's what I have on mine. 

Edited by Mono
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, Mono said:

However, quantitative questions are more often than not the only meaningful questions. 

The question is not whether 120g added weight makes the ride less efficient, which it surely trivially does. The question is whether 120g added weight makes a difference of 0.1W or 1W or 10W or 100W on average. The answer is probably closer to 0.1W than to 1W.

On the other hand, if you have a Kevlar protected high-end puncture-proof tire on your wheel I concur that there is no need to worry about Slime. I don't think though that that's what I have on mine. 

120 gram added to the tire may not be trivial if you accelerate and decelerate constantly - At a steady pace I guess it would matter less...
It really depends on other parameters to determine how it plays into the over all equation.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Roll Model said:

But of the two methods discussed above I would drop the entire wheel by pulling the axle and leaving both side covers and as much of the electrics untouched a possible

Pulling the axle sounds like a good idea....we just need a hydraulic press at home! 

Like @Scully said ...i also would like to see that :)

 

8 hours ago, Roll Model said:

You don't have to replace a tube because it got punctured! Just patch the dam thing. On most these wheels there is plenty of room to remove just a small portion of the tube (at the affected spot) with out even removing the wheel or even the tire. There is simply no need to remove the tire from the rim to patch a tube. 3 minutes and 50 cents later you're off!

Damn!

how do i know where the puncture is? So that i remove only that portion of the tube? 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, KingSong69 said:

Pulling the axle sounds like a good idea....we just need a hydraulic press at home! 

Like @Scully said ...i also would like to see that :)

 

Damn!

how do i know where the puncture is? So that i remove only that portion of the tube? 

 

"Pulling the Axle"...Not sure of that reference?
Like I said, if you can't you can't. I have an MTB buddy and patching a tube is well beyond his capabilities - He simply can't do it, even after 20 years of ridding.
You can often SEE THE THORN, THE GLASS, THE NAIL if you look. But you need to find the leak as the first order of business. I guess you have to have a positive open mind because if you have convinced yourself that it will be impossible to find and so don't really try...
Blow up the tire and listen for a hiss?
Blow up the tire and feel for a hiss?
Blow up the tire and squirt it with a water bottle..?
You did say it had an leak, right?
99% of the holes will be on the ridding surface of the tube (less than 25% of the tube) so it really isn't that tough.
There is a hole, most the time you can see it, you will always be able to feel air escaping from it and it will be making a noise.
Check the stem for leaks if you can't find a thorn, glass, nail, hole or jet blast...
You see the picture I posted of the sew up tires? That's about as much as ever got opened at one time and in that case you could not remove the tube from the tire to examine it - You had to figure out where the leak was before you CUT INTO THE TIRE ;)
If you look, you will find the leak. Pump up the tire, you'll find it. You may have to sniff it out, you can feel and smell the breeze, but in any case, if there is a leak it can't really hide.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Roll Model said:

120 gram added to the tire may not be trivial if you accelerate and decelerate constantly

Some time ago I read an article about the question of importance of mass being in the bicycle wheel vs in the frame. It concluded that the difference is somewhat overrated. Specifically, IIRC, it concluded that 120g in the wheel has no more effect (and generally less) than 240g in the frame. It might be related to the fact that the speed over ground of any part of the wheel is no more than twice the speed of the bicycle frame (maximal speed is assumed by the top of the wheel). This means that 120g added in the tire has the same effect on acceleration/deceleration as drinking a glass of water, which I would call trivial (meaning irrelevant).

The same question comes up when choosing a tire. I certainly would chose a tire which weighs 120g more than the default choice, if in exchange it reduced the probability to get a flat by a factor of two. Sure, that goes all down to quantifying personal preference. If you can repair any flat in 3 minutes your mileage might differ. Most of us can't and don't want to spend the time to work on their skill to get there.

It should also be said though that preventing flat tires (instead of repairing them) is a safety feature.

Edited by Mono
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/24/2016 at 2:20 PM, Roll Model said:

Lighter wheels, rims and tires et all will increase the performance of your car, your bike, your Euc...There is little to 'figure out' in regard to that, but many experiences with bikes and cars have lern't me. How much loss is unclear and it's magnitude would vary quite a bit during a typical ride. I know there are ZERO bike road racing teams that us it and the same number of Mountain bike teams - If they get a flat it can end the race for them! 

Lighter wheels are important where you have a suspension (which EUC's don't, unless you count your knees).  The unsprung mass of your car or motorbike determine reaction times for traction, steering, etc, and any energy transmitted to the body has to be dealt with and generally scrubbed off (at some energy cost).  So with a suspension it costs some energy.  But with bike wheels bolted directly to the frame, or EUC's where wheel = frame, slime adds a tiny bit of angular momentum, but no friction.  I doubt it even uses an extra .01W out of a charge.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having had a bike with two sets of wheels, one for training and one for racing I can only say you have been sadly misled.
The idea that weight added to the wheel is the same or similar to weight on the frame is simply wrong.
I have felt the difference and seen the millage increase in changing to lighter tires on my SUV for Christ's sake. Empirical experiences have educated me. Adding a passenger to my truck makes no difference you can feel. But changing to a set of tires that weighed 50 pounds more per tire would make an obvious difference just as changing to a set that was only a few pounds lighter made a noticeable difference.
Accelerating 120grams is simply not the same as carrying 120grams - When you are climbing it is the same as constantly  accelerating the load over and over and over, so a static 120grams carried up a mountain is not the same.
As for the comments about 'Sprung weight' vs 'un-sprung weight' - these have NOTING to do with motive force. It concerns the suspensions ability to accelerate the wheel assembly (downward) to respond to potholes in the road and absorb/control the momentum and motion (upward) caused by bumps in the road. These are parameters that allow the suspension to keep the tire in contact with the road, which aside from traction, has zero - Absolutely zero consideration of the work load being done by the vehicle. In other words, more or less un-sprung weight has no effect on how easily the car accelerates, decelerates, or rolls at a steady pace. It has only to do with the 'ride quality' - Not speed (excepting traction dependent and potential control issues).

Hell, I have changed to a lighter inner tube on a bike and felt the difference, lol - This isn't even open to discussion, try it on a bike. The Micheleins on my SUV have paper thin side walls but have a larger contact zone - The millage gain was obvious over the OEM General Tire's as was the acceleration gain. Believe how you wish, try to experiment for yourself.
@Chris Westland...A little knowledge doesn't help. You have some understanding of the terms but clearly have failed to grasp the concepts behind your reading - If you put the braking system 'in-board' (as they do in many race cars) all the weight of the disks' and calipers -  All that gear simply doesn't go up and down with the wheel. The car will go no slower and no faster because of this. The wheel will be 'lighter' to raise and lower but the rotation weight will be unchanged...So no more or less efficient. The suspension has less weight to deal with, so it is easier/better at controlling the tires motion but the 'efficiency' of the car doesn't change on a flat smooth road - Both configurations (inboard or traditional outboard) would give the same gas consumption. Sprung and un-sprung weight are not rotational, which is the subject here and while you correctly realized that neither had anything to do with EUC's you failed to grasp the significance of that fact ;)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Mono said:

it concluded that 120g in the wheel has no more effect (and generally less) than 240g in the frame.

So the report claimed that a pound in the wheels was similar to two pounds on the frame...So of all the weight on your bike you could shed the "weight in the wheel" is worth TWICE what ever other weight you could shed...On vehicles where grams cost $100's and $100's of dollars you may have misunderstood the reports 'findings' lol
But adding 120grams to the axle ("the wheel") is not the same as adding 120grams to the tire.

So the report proves the most 'important' weight you can remove to increase the performance would be in the tires by a 2:1 ratio! Race cars use 'Mags' not steel wheels, right? They don't use slime even though a flat could cost them millions. How come?

If you can't patch a tube reliably then the conversation is a bit moot. If you can't find the leak then your ability to patch is irreverent. Since we don't race EUC's and almost never have to drain the battery in order to enjoy EUC's a few extra pounds added to the rotation weight would have little impact for recreation activities. A flat (even on a bike) seems to send even rational/capable people into fear and confidence that failure is the only option...
Slime on!

 

Edited by Roll Model
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Roll Model said:

Race cars use 'Mags' not steel wheels, right? They don't use slime even though a flat could cost them millions. How come?

As already said above: they don't have cheap tires. Price tag and hence production quality for race car tires are pretty much on the complete opposite side from what we have on our EUCs.

Edited by Mono
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 26/12/2016 at 3:44 AM, Roll Model said:

So the report claimed that a pound in the wheels was similar to two pounds on the frame...

No, the report claimed that a pound in the wheel is not worse than two pounds in the frame. There are quite obvious effects for which a pound in the wheel and a pound in the frame are equivalent, e.g. for lifting. 

Quote

Accelerating 120grams is simply not the same as carrying 120grams

Sure, only that both weights (in the frame and in the wheel) need to be accelerated, so that doesn't make the distinction between weight on the frame and weight on the wheel.

On 26/12/2016 at 3:54 AM, Roll Model said:

But adding 120grams to the axle ("the wheel") is not the same as adding 120grams to the tire.

Sure, that is why I wrote "generally less". 120g in the axle are probably pretty indistinguishable from 120g in the frame. In this context, the axle should anyway not be considered as part of the wheels, as it doesn't move relative to the frame.

Edited by Mono
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/13/2016 at 4:36 PM, Scully said:

Anyone had a chance to fix a puncture on an Msuper V3? 
I've already pulled the tyre over and patched it - but a few weeks later it's flat again, I have a new inner tube on order. 

I've taken the covers off.... could do with some pointers from here... The big bolt in the middle is screaming to be undone - just thought i'd check here first.

Where did you purchase inner tube Skully? My valve stem is bent and the valve core doesn't function properly due to this.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

THANKS @Scully for the video, guided me through a tube change on my MSuper V3 with no issues or complications. Shot 4 oz. of Slime into the tube along with 2.8 bar of air. And also THANKS @NevNutz at Tec-Toyz for going above and beyond (as usual) to get me a replacement tube, stat! 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

On 12/13/2016 at 4:42 PM, Scully said:

I've done a whoopsey though. 

I disconnected my battery - I thought it was good practice when working on these things. 
I just tried to re-connect it, the 1st side (motherboard) went back fine - then 2nd side, big spark, now the XT60's are fried, 

I dis-connected the mother board side, dis-connected that battery then tried to re-connect the 'fried' side.  
The XT60's won't physically go back together. 

I have no idea what to do now....
Oops.

You might have created a small bur of melted metal. Look inside the connectors and see if you can find the molten bur. Post pictures. If you have a jeweled file and find the bur you can file it down so the connectors can mate again. 

After you fix when connecting do it fast with purpose. If you do it slow you will make a arcking that lasts two long and damages the connector. Do it fast

Edited by Carlos E Rodriguez
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I think thats what happened. 
All sorted that same day though.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now