Advanced Battery Tech

[sanman]

So according to this site, NCA (Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum Lithium-ion battery) is the most energy-dense battery chemistry technology currently on the market:

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

The 2nd highest energy-density battery chemistry is LCO (Lithium-Cobalt-Oxide battery)

The 3rd highest energy-density battery chemistry is NMC (Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt Lithium-ion battery)

 

Panasonic supplies Tesla with these NCA batteries for their cars, which is why Tesla has the highest range out of any electric car (Tesla and Panasonic are also partners in a battery-making factory):

http://www.batteryspace.com/hi-power-panasonic-lithium-18650-rechargeable-cell-3-6v-3100mah-11-16wh---ncr18650a-0-93---un-38-3-passed.aspx

Tesla has come out with a new 2170 battery cell which offers more power than the 18650 cell and is slightly larger:

https://evannex.com/blogs/news/tesla-s-new-2170-cell-packs-more-power

Quote

According to Elon Musk, it’s “the highest energy density cell in the world, and also the cheapest.” The 2170 cell is around 50% larger by volume than the 18650, but it can deliver almost double the current (the 18650 delivers 3,000 mA, and the 2170 has been tested at 5,750-6,000 mA).

So without having to buy a Tesla car, how the heck does one get their hands on such batteries?

Anybody know of other promising batteries that may be coming onto the market, or have some battery porn they'd like to share?

(Psst - solid state batteries - and then maybe eventually lithium air batteries)

https://cleantechnica.com/2017/04/11/panasonic-hints-beyond-lithium-technology-ev-battery-improvements/

 

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by sanman

[meepmeepmayer]

The IPS i5 uses 20700 cells in its bigger capacity version. So I guess you can just buy them as usual?

Oops sorry you wrote 21700.

Edited August 4, 2017 by meepmeepmayer

[sanman]

WARNING: Battery Porn - Viewer Discretion is Advised

 

 

 

 

Hmm, I hope Tesla isn't just taking the "razor-blade model" approach/tactic - ie. changing the battery size not to improve actual performance, but instead to ensure that customers are exclusively dependent on Tesla for further battery replacements.

Hopefully, the performance will truly be superior to other products on the market.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

3 minutes ago, sanman said:

Hmm, I hope Tesla isn't just taking the "razor-blade model" approach/tactic - ie. changing the battery size not to improve actual performance, but instead to ensure that customers are exclusively dependent on Tesla for further battery replacements.

You might be right why else make a 1mm bigger diameter version, which changes basically nothing...

[esaj]

LG MH1's and MJ1's are NCA, as well as many others... in my observations, it seems that pretty much all >3000mAh 18650's are NCA, and to make a 208Wh (or 210Wh, depending on how you count) 16S1P, you need 3500mAh cells. So for example the 16S4P's with 820Wh (or 840Wh, depending how you count) seem to be always made with NCAs.

[Michael Vu]

Here's a good documentary by Nova on all of the current and highly researched battery technologies going on right now. The biggest hope is the Solid State Plastic battery that's featured about halfway through. 3 times the energy density with the use of Lithium metal, and completely safe even when punctured and cut up.

 

[ubertoad]

This is one of the hottest research topics. Ones with better batteries will reap huge profits. There are numerous applications: phones, laptops, electric transport (starting from near EUC's and ending at jets), sun panels energy storing etc. Whole history of the civilization can be seeing as increasing magnitude and efficiency of energy usage.

So it isn't something that can be missed. Also there can be models that only fit certain usages.

[steve454]

3 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You might be right why else make a 1mm bigger diameter version, which changes basically nothing...

Isn't going from 18mm wide to 21mm wide 3mm wider and 5mm longer I don't know the formula for volume increase but the new battery is substantially larger.

[US69]

26 minutes ago, steve454 said:

Isn't going from 18mm wide to 21mm wide 3mm wider and 5mm longer I don't know the formula for volume increase but the new battery is substantially larger.

Yes, its larger and wider...

But: the watthour/liter rate or watthour/kg rate is not much better than on our 18650 batteries...

Which means in the end for a specified watthour/range you have them same weight/volumen as before.

What is slightly better, is the max amp draw rate....the new 20700 are capable of 15Amp continuous instead of our 10amp.

That the 20700 was choosed for the I5, which only has one seriell pack, was a good decision!

[sanman]

Here's a post claiming that Sanyo's 20700 batteries nominally rated at 4000mAh do show under testing that they perform better:

https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/threads/sanyo-20700b-4000mah-20700-bench-test-results-a-peek-at-the-future.775809/

 

Quote

• At 10A continuous it reached 3909mAh. This is good performance for a 4000mAh cell at 10A so I am rating it at 4000mAh.
• At 15A continuous the temperature rose to 74°C. This is just a bit below the average temperature of a cell operating at its continuous discharge rating (CDR). This is an indication that we are operating near its true rating.
• At 20A continuous the temperature rose to 88°C. This is too hot for this current level to be the rating.
• At 25A continuous the temperature rose to 102°C. This much too hot and is above my 100°C safety limit.
• I am setting a CDR of 16A for this cell. While operating any cell near its rated maximum current level causes damage to the cell, I would expect good cycle life from this cell at 16A continuous.

 

(porn addicts drove the push for faster bandwidth, gaming addicts drove the trend for faster processors, and now smoking addicts are bringing us better batteries   )

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by sanman

[BUSTANUTELLA]

5 minutes ago, sanman said:

(porn addicts drove the push for faster bandwidth, gaming addicts drove the trend for faster processors, and now smoking addicts are bringing us better batteries   )

If you call vapers smokers, they'd get upset. The only people really pushing the battery to its limits are those people trying to chuck the bigass clouds, and the tinkerers probably.

Edited August 4, 2017 by BUSTANUTELLA

[Keith]

4 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

You might be right why else make a 1mm bigger diameter version, which changes basically nothing...

 

1 hour ago, steve454 said:

Isn't going from 18mm wide to 21mm wide 3mm wider and 5mm longer I don't know the formula for volume increase but the new battery is substantially larger.

@steve454. there is nothing wrong with your maths then! However @meepmeepmayer was talking about the standard 20700 cell compared with Tessla producing a 21700 cell I.e. Making it non-standard and, at only 1mm wider of dubious additional benefit. 

Oh by the way the volume of a cylinder is taught to every schoolchild,  V=πr2h. That makes the 20700 = 21.99 cubic cm 

21700 = 24.24 cubic cm

18650 = 16.54 cubic cm

Edited August 4, 2017 by Keith

[sanman]

This chart is useful for comparing the various battery types on the market to one another:

 

Beyond the future solid-state batteries, Lithium Air batteries would probably be the ideal, once they manage to achieve the cycle life.

Edited August 4, 2017 by sanman

[steve454]

4 hours ago, KingSong69 said:

What is slightly better, is the max amp draw rate....the new 20700 are capable of 15Amp continuous instead of our 10amp.

That the 20700 was choosed for the I5, which only has one seriell pack, was a good decision!

That is a lot better amp draw rate. 50% better.   And the I5 with the 20700 has much longer range and wh.

 

3 hours ago, Keith said:

there is nothing wrong with your maths then! However @meepmeepmayer was talking about the standard 20700 cell compared with Tessla producing a 21700 cell I.e. Making it non-standard and, at only 1mm wider of dubious additional benefit. 

Oh by the way the volume of a cylinder is taught to every schoolchild,  V=πr2h. That makes the 20700 = 21.99 cubic cm 

21700 = 24.24 cubic cm

18650 = 16.54 cubic cm

Oops, I misread it, I was only thinking about the difference in our 18650 to the 21700.  So the 21700 is almost 8 cubic cm larger, that seems like a lot.  

I was taught the volume of a cylinder, I'm pretty sure, but that was so long ago and I never had to use that formula, so many things I have forgotten from school.

Guess I am looking to the future, and thinking that these larger cells will become more common.  When the I5 became available with the 20700 I was happily surprised at seeing new technology.

[Keith]

The most promising technology to fail to appear commercially is, to me, the methanol fuel cell.  Methanol can be produced as a biofuel, making it green and decomposes in a fuel cell to water and CO2 keeping it green. The idea of simply topping up with methanol when you run out of power seems oh so much simpler than trying to get a lot of charge into a battery at speed.

it was muted as a mobile phone supply first using methanol in little cartridges not unlike those used in fountain pens - thus being clean and easy to carry spare power in your pocket (not to mention allowing the manufacturer to still sell you that power). As a power tool fuel it has lots of potential, completely freeing the artisan from the need to have an electricity supply close to hand - ideal in building sites for example.

For my area of interest, fuelling model radio control 'planes and helicopters with methanol is something we have been doing for generations, being able to do that at the flying field with the convenience of electric motors and without the noise and pollution of 2 and 4-stroke motors seems ideal.

By the time we had that amount of fuel cell power available it would be just a small step to powering EUC's with a fuel cell. Range worry would cease to be an issue if all you needed to do was carry a small bottle of methanol with you.

i can dream I suppose ?

[sanman]

Yeah, I remember seeing methanol rechargers for laptops and phones. But do you really want to wheel around with a can of flammable methanol in your napsack? If you run out, you'll have to call a cab, because you can't just get methanol from the nearest petrol station. Sure, the methanol will give greater range - hydrocarbon fuels have greater energy density than electrochemical cells, and methanol is ultimately reacting with the air, which is an ubiquitous chemical reagent that abundantly surrounds us. Only Lithium-Air batteries would have a chance of coming close, and right now they can't be recharged many times.

[Keith]

10 hours ago, sanman said:

But do you really want to wheel around with a can of flammable methanol in your napsack?

Is that any different from riding around with a flammable Lithium Battery in your napsack, or a bottle of vodka for that matter. It is less explosive and a lot less smelly than petrol.

See photo below, this happened last week at my club field whilst the model was in the air. Problem, as far as we can tell, was a quite old battery (4 or 5 years old) and the user drawing a very high current from it albeit in short bursts as it was a powered glider.

Methanol is fairly readily available, and if fuel cells became common would be very available. Petrol engined cars only really started to sell because there was the foresight to have petrol stations in place before the car really got going.

Above all else, there would be absolutely no problem carrying a Methanol fuelled EUC on an airliner as long as its tank was empty, and no problem getting fuel at your destination.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Keith

[zlymex]

The advances of specific energy for 18650 cells seems stopped in recent year.

I bought my first Panasonic NCR18650B more than 4 years ago that specified at 243Wh/kg. Now the best 18650 cells used in EUCs(such as LG MJ1 and Sanyo GA) are still about the same.

Edited August 6, 2017 by zlymex
typo

[US69]

6 hours ago, zlymex said:

The advances of specific energy for 18650 cells seems stopped in recent year.

I bought my first Panasonic NCR18650B more than 4 years ago that specified at 243Wh/kg. Now the best 18650 cells used in EUCs(such as LG MJ1 and Sanyo GA) are still about the same.

What has got a bit better, is the ability to have a higher max continuous amp draw....the 18650B i have about 6,5 Amp in mind, while nowadays you are able to get 10 Amp from a 18650 cell with high capacity.

But in the end its a slow process of small achievements...especially producers like Tesla now with the model 3 are not able to take to high risks and use not properly over a long time tested new chemistry or new technologie!

So they go the "known way" of NCA chemistry and put that in a slighlty larger cell....

Until we will see real progress(on the market!!!), i guess it will take some time more.

[Sven]

i enjoyed very much watching this clip! And he's from the town too  I subscribed lol

[Hansolo]

[US69]

34 minutes ago, Hansolo said:

Highest (real) capacity is 3500mah at the Moment.....

[Hansolo]

Yes, unfortunately

[Keith]

1 hour ago, KingSong69 said:

Highest (real) capacity is 3500mah at the Moment.....

Thank heavens most of the sellers are too stupid to mark them up with plausible capacities - the highest 18650s I've seen have been advertised as 9000mAh and I've even seen some buyers praise how wonderfully long lasting they are. Mind you others have actually tested them carefully and then complained bitterly that they are crap - which has still left me thinking "surely if your clever enough to know how to test them you ought to have been clever enough not to buy them in the first place?

I'm still struggling to find an 18650 loose cell seller I actually trust enough to buy from?

[US69]

28 minutes ago, Keith said:

Thank heavens most of the sellers are too stupid to mark them up with plausible capacities - the highest 18650s I've seen have been advertised as 9000mAh and I've even seen some buyers praise how wonderfully long lasting they are. Mind you others have actually tested them carefully and then complained bitterly that they are crap - which has still left me thinking "surely if your clever enough to know how to test them you ought to have been clever enough not to buy them in the first place?

I'm still struggling to find an 18650 loose cell seller I actually trust enough to buy from?

nkon.nl

or

Akkuteile.de

are both very good