WARPed1701D Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 This article is mainly about VR headsets but note the same tech involved (gyroscopes) and the mention in the report that hover boards could be equally as affected as VR headsets. I guess this means EUCs too. https://vrscout.com/news/hackers-ultrasonic-waves-disrupt-vr-headset/ So in the future you could get taken down by that disgruntled granny who doesn't like you wheeling along her sidewalk! One shot from her sonic blaster and you are eating the ground. Drones could also be targeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlord17 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I imagine that it would not be difficult to shield this with some metal mesh... what sort of metal mesh is used for EMP disruption? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 23 minutes ago, Catlord17 said: I imagine that it would not be difficult to shield this with some metal mesh... what sort of metal mesh is used for EMP disruption? Copper or other conductive / magnetic metal. Actually it's better if it's "solid" and not a mesh, but I guess mesh is used in wires so they can bend and to lower material costs ("Any holes in the shield or mesh must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation that is being kept out, or the enclosure will not effectively approximate an unbroken conducting surface."), and when the frequencies are known. A solid metal sheet / plates probably works best. Ultrasonic is not electro-magnetic interference, but sound waves (changing air pressure). I guess some material that absorbs the air pressure changes and prevents the vibrations from entering the chip would work best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARPed1701D Posted July 12, 2017 Author Share Posted July 12, 2017 For drones this could be a big weight/bulk addition. For EUC's...well I just can't imagine any manufacturers actually implementing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlord17 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 1 hour ago, esaj said: Copper or other conductive / magnetic metal. Actually it's better if it's "solid" and not a mesh, but I guess mesh is used in wires so they can bend and to lower material costs ("Any holes in the shield or mesh must be significantly smaller than the wavelength of the radiation that is being kept out, or the enclosure will not effectively approximate an unbroken conducting surface."), and when the frequencies are known. A solid metal sheet / plates probably works best. Ultrasonic is not electro-magnetic interference, but sound waves (changing air pressure). I guess some material that absorbs the air pressure changes and prevents the vibrations from entering the chip would work best? I understand this, but the concept may be applicable to both in some way, that's what I was thinking. I'm very much not sure after reading that article that it's just affecting the electronics based on "changing air pressure"... 1 hour ago, WARPed1701D said: For drones this could be a big weight/bulk addition. For EUC's...well I just can't imagine any manufacturers actually implementing this. Not a difficult custom mod, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 12 minutes ago, Catlord17 said: I'm very much not sure after reading that article that it's just affecting the electronics based on "changing air pressure"... Read the original Forbes-article they cited: https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2017/07/11/alibaba-researchers-attack-facebook-vr-with-soundwaves/#1a74e45613a6 "Using soundwaves in this way is far from new, nor are the researchers' attacks expensive or complicated to execute." "For attackers, there's the additional benefit that ultrasonic signals can't be heard by the human ear, so anyone immersed in their VR experience will likely be more than a little disorientated if they're shot by the gun, said Wang Kang. " "The real barrier in mounting sonic attacks is targeting the sound. Sound naturally disperses as it's travelling through the air so you need to be able to focus all the sonic energy on your victim. That's easier said that done, but we've even seen sonic canons developed for crowd control that use highly directed waves, so doing at a smaller scale seems perfectly feasible." Wikipedia on Sound: "In physics, sound is a vibration that propagates as a typically audible mechanical wave of pressure and displacement, through a transmission medium such as air or water. In physiology and psychology, sound is the reception of such waves and their perception by the brain.[1] Humans can hear sound waves with frequencies between about 20 Hz and 20 kHz. Sound above 20 kHz is ultrasound and below 20 Hz is infrasound" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Sound no stop Hulk EUC riders... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlord17 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 So basically the interference effect is being caused by the ultrasound being projected at the resonance frequency of the object to be affected? And if this is just sound, then a sonic dampener should be possible as protection... something to absorb the sonic energy. But that seems to suggest we would need something that would likely increase thermal insulation for whatever is being "sonically protected"..,.. not the desired effect, if I am right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esaj Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Catlord17 said: So basically the interference effect is being caused by the ultrasound being projected at the resonance frequency of the object to be affected? And if this is just sound, then a sonic dampener should be possible as protection... something to absorb the sonic energy. But that seems to suggest we would need something that would likely increase thermal insulation for whatever is being "sonically protected"..,.. not the desired effect, if I am right. So it seems, although I doubt old grannies will be carrying big enough "sonic guns" to actually take down an EUC, at least not far away The Forbes-article actually states that the research team was unable to make a hoverboard go haywire without installing the emitter inside the casing, but sure, with a big enough gun, it would probably work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catlord17 Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Is it just me or is that guy riding an EUC with a sonic cannon on it? lol The gear looks the same anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fat Unicyclist Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 But I'm safe if I keep wearing my tinfoil hat, aren't I? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunka Hunka Burning Love Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 Better go all out like Lady Gaga to be on the safe side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kasenutty Posted July 12, 2017 Share Posted July 12, 2017 I'm imagining epic games of EUC laser tag where the person hit. crashes. Could be like a futuristic roller derby type sport Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 This isn't something I'm worried about, but it is a curious subject. If the effect could be caused by something as common as a car backfiring or one of those aerosol boat horns, I'd be nervous maybe. Since sound absorption is key, how about something as simple as the foam tape we often wrap our EUC's in? And/or bubble wrap? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pArmitage Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 Limited range means, for now, an attacker would have to be right next to you. My guess is that a model capable of having an effect from even ten feet away would be large enough to hamper the attacker's movement, making them an easier target for either identification and litigation, or an old fashioned, passionate butt-kicking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 On 12/07/2017 at 6:13 PM, WARPed1701D said: Drones could also be targeted. I'm absolutely astonished that drones aren't the subject of this article. VR seems a very odd thing to focus this technology on?Only last week London Gatwick airport was closed twice and for some time by a quadcopter (to give it its correct name) flying on the approach path: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/02/drone-forces-closure-of-gatwick-runway-and-diversion-of-many-flights . So something capable of shooting them down, even if it's the size of a bus, is certainly needed. Ironically jamming the radio frequency won't stop them as the can fly autonomously, or, at worst go into 'return to home' if they lose signal. So something that hits the harmonic frequency of the MEMs chips does make the most sense and would be very difficult to block if it was powerful enough, the gyros would have to be buried in at least several inches of foam. My model flying club fly close to the Gatwick zone and, two years ago we started losing planes on 2.4GHz radios, but only when we fly at this one site. 2.4 is spread spectrum and should be virtually bomb proof yet I personally have lost 7 aircraft. Model planes, of course, do not have MEM's giros and stabilisation, (in fact for an experienced model flyer - quads and stabilisation systems make flying incredibly boring) so radio loss results in the engine throttle closing and the plane spiralling down out of the sky. Eventually once I realised I couldn't be having this many equipment failures, I fitted a stabilisation system with 'return to home' and onboard telemetry, it showed a solid 100 seconds total loss of signal during a 30 minute stooging around flight. So it is beginning to look like someone is working on radio jamming systems as we cannot think of any other explanation that would take out our models. Nearly all of my club have gone back to the old 35Mhz frequencies we used to use and have had no further problems, other than 35MHz equipment and crystals are getting to be like hens teeth to get hold of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingfelder Posted July 14, 2017 Share Posted July 14, 2017 That's pretty interesting Keith. It reminds me of separate stories I've come across. One is that people are constantly shooting at the big passenger airplanes. So much so that it's routine to check the planes for bullets and pull them out. The other is that there are many cases of people using laser pointers to try to zap pilots in the eyeballs. Human perfidy knows no bounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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