Alien Rides Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I purchased an 820wh ACM and wanted to compare charge doctor numbers with others. I measured my battery with the charge doctor and I'm not getting close to being able to charge to a full 820. I tried running down my ACM to about 5% battery, and a full charge with the charge doctor was around ~670wh. I'm trying to figure out if these numbers are expected, or if I should be worried about a faulty battery pack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 if you are moving your wheel until NOTHING goes anymore....no movement possible in anyways...and your charge doctor dont go over 670..... i would definitly expect a wrong pack.....open one up....take a look... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 3 minutes ago, KingSong69 said: if you are moving your wheel until NOTHING goes anymore....no movement possible in anyways...and your charge doctor dont go over 670..... i would definitly expect a wrong pack.....open one up....take a look... I heard that too much discharge was bad, so I ran it almost to nothing, maybe I'll run it down again to absolute zero to double check. What am I looking for if I open it up? A different number of battery cells? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 before opening try again till no movement....this can not harm the batteries...they ere able to go much under the 3.3 volt per cell normally.... yes, you have to look which cells are in the pack...the 820 pack needs to have panasonic/Sanyo NCR18650GA...the 680 pack i do not know in the moment..... so not a differemt number of cells .....you will have 32 on each side..its the same on 680 and 820....but WHICH cells is the important question.... normally there is a sticker on the pack which tells which cells are inside...but: if you never come over 680 and on the sticker it says pana/sanyo 18650GA......i MYSELF would take a look inside the pack.... would not be the first time...some "faults" like this happen .....i have read from something like this on FB group Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Last week when I went to the Gotway factory, I went to their "battery pack assembly room" and Gotway boss Lin said the 820 Wh configuration uses the Panasonic "red cells" while the 680 Wh configuration uses Panasonic "green cells". I'm not sure the model numbers but the color of the plastic wrap on the 18650 cells can tell you right away whether you have the 680 Wh or 820 Wh configuration. Perhaps you may need to cut a bit of the plastic wrap for the PACK to see the color of the individual cell wraps though. @KingSong69 is correct that both configurations have the same total number of cells. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 but there is something else to see in this batterie question: the pana ncr18650Ga is not known as the "best" cell in the world..... the 3500mah it promises is under "optimum" disload factor.... if you look here: http://dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=609 this cell never gets it full 3500mah......only if you discharge it to a level under 3 volt you get over 3000 mah... BUT: normally our wheels and other elctronics cut the voltage by around 3,3 or 3.2 volts and then say then "empty"...just to not stress the cell to much..... so if the 680 wh version batterie is a very good one...it can in fact be that the 820 and 680 wh pack make no big diffenrence in real life as i got just a "little" knowledge about those cells....i normally first look which cell is in which pack...and in which configuration....before i decide to get the "biggest" possible pack available.... a very good 2800mah cell can beat the hell out of a 3500mah cell in real life usage... i do not say that this is here like this....but if you never get over 680wh AND the batterie in you ACM is REALLY the red pana/sanyo 18650GA.... here it seams to be just like i thought (and dampfakkus had proven)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted June 27, 2016 Author Share Posted June 27, 2016 Thanks for the info guys! ? I've heard that all of the ACM batteries have stickers on them, unfortunately mine did not come with stickers which could've made identification easier. I'll open the packs up to verify the configuration and will post pictures when I have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 the best batteries for our wheels FOR ME are lg HG2 with 3000mah samsung 30q with 3000mah and if somebody will really go for a max 3500... i would only do this with lgMJ 1 also it is very important if you have a 16/20S2P or 4P or just 1P configuration...... attention: my 2 cents on this ....i am no pro in batterie questions ...just a "vaper" ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 16 minutes ago, Kevin Grandon said: Thanks for the info guys! ? I've heard that all of the ACM batteries have stickers on them, unfortunately mine did not come with stickers which could've made identification easier. I'll open the packs up to verify the configuration and will post pictures when I have them. i mean there shouls also be a sticker on the blue batterie pack itself....but if you have open you shell...you can directly take a look into one of the packs...but pay attention to what i wrote about real life watthour capability... here....everything is possible :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 My understanding was similar to what @KingSong69 said, the cells used in the 820Wh pack can be run to a lower voltage which gives you more usable power per charge. My question would be, doesn't that require firmware to know that the battery can safely run to a lower voltage? Is there a setting in the app or a jumper on the board to indicate that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 15 minutes ago, dmethvin said: My understanding was similar to what @KingSong69 said, the cells used in the 820Wh pack can be run to a lower voltage which gives you more usable power per charge. My question would be, doesn't that require firmware to know that the battery can safely run to a lower voltage? Is there a setting in the app or a jumper on the board to indicate that? When....this has do be done over the BMS System: If you look at the link http://dampfakkus.de/akkutest.php?id=609 you can see that a "realistic" amount for this cell is Maximum 3000 mah....and that only when you go down to 3 Volt, what no wheel really does...... Normaly NO wheel goes much under 52 Volt for the 16 cells which is 3,3 Volt per Cell.... To bring them down to 2,5 Volt....would bring These cells to a MUCH shorter lifetime.... like i understand it: Modern BMS dont cut out anymore if you go shortly under 52 Volt (3,3 Volt per cell)...on a heavy load for example! (like some have done in further times) But NO BMS in the world goes down to 40 Volt (2,5 per cell), perhaps one goes to 48(3 Volt per cell)....if you are under no load (wheel stood still) So for me: Some of the 820 configurations with some "Special" cells are just totally Nonsens....i prefer a trustable 340/680/1360wh config with GOOD batteries that can take more than a max of 10Amp load.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 Hmmm, let's say they put in a 3-volt-minimum BMS so it won't cut out too soon. The battery meter is in the control board and not the BMS right? So in that case the 820Wh battery pack actually has more capacity but the control board will still think it's empty and do tilt-back using the minimum 3.3v-per-cell voltages. It would be good to get some sort of clarification from Gotway about this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vido Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 What does ks16 840 use? LGMJ1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 7 minutes ago, vido said: What does ks16 840 use? LGMJ1? I think so...but i am Not sure... even if so...they Are just a Little Bit better and also Do Not deliver the promised 3500mah.... even Not between 3 Volt and 4.2 Volt... look at dampfakkus.de most 18650 Are tested there 35 minutes ago, dmethvin said: Hmmm, let's say they put in a 3-volt-minimum BMS so it won't cut out too soon. The battery meter is in the control board and not the BMS right? So in that case the 820Wh battery pack actually has more capacity but the control board will still think it's empty and do tilt-back using the minimum 3.3v-per-cell voltages. It would be good to get some sort of clarification from Gotway about this. The BMS sends The Information to The Board....and says ...Full...empty...problem...etc i think gotway just tries to hear to The market...The People want high watthour? Here You Are.... the difference on The 680/850 msuper2 was a third pack with 210 wh extra (so 840 would have been The correct Name :-) ) but thats a whole different Story than this 680/820 ACM thing..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TremF Posted June 27, 2016 Share Posted June 27, 2016 I have a Charge Doctor, for my ACM, on the way. I will check the website when it arrives to try and suss out how to use it. I have also picked up a second charger from Yorskshire Airwheels LTD so I can fast charge if I need less downtime Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Just to clear some things up: On the most batteries you will not be able to get out the anounced MilliAmperehours(mah)! So thats nothing against the type Gotway uses here....its more a type of "user" error! The difference between anounced and "REALLY" real life Mah is that what makes the difference for me... When on a 3500mah Batterie with a max load factor of 10Amp you only get around 3000mah(under Labor surroundings of 2 Amp draw).....for me thats a big difference... One of the best batteries...the Sony Konion VTC5 with (just) 2600mah, but with a high max draw loadfactor of 30Amp!!! the real life mah is about 2450mah....Unfortunatly they are hard to get, and very expensive! Thats why i would say the LGHG2 with 3000mah, 20Amp, Real 2750 and the Samsung 30Q with 3000mah,15Amp, Real 2700 are more adequate for our wheels....some of the best to get....even Price/Quality wise very OK.... You can say: Yeah, ok this are not the real numbers...... but with the 3500mah batteries in the END i always get more watthours ...more as on those 3000 mah ones!!! SO in the END a 820wh package is ALWAYS better than an 520wh or 680wh package....... Sorry, Then i have to answer that even These "real life" Scenarios you see on "dampfakkus.de" are just with an Standard load draw of about 2Amp.....and thats not what our wheels do!......we very often draw much, much higher amps by driving with our wheels...fast, hills, slopes, idling!!! If you see a curve of a 3500mah Batterie under max load of 10 Amp...it sometimes even gives you just about 1500mah under this Maximum load in the 4,2 to 3,3 Volt Region..... And under this "max amperage drawings" the best batteries are then NOT this one with the high Mah's...it are more types like the mentionend Sony Konion VTC5 or "the good old" Samsung 25 R.... which -on the first look- just "seam" to have not so much watthours to give .....but can give much OUR Wheels more watthours under higher drawings of amperage than any other type of Batterie.... Ok, Sorry, difficult to explain...excuse the Long writing ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reivax Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 On 6/27/2016 at 7:00 AM, Kevin Grandon said: I heard that too much discharge was bad, so I ran it almost to nothing, maybe I'll run it down again to absolute zero to double check This is handled by the BMS, an electronic circuit packed with the batteries, it insures that you won't discharge your batteries any lower than is safe for them so you need not keep a safety charge by yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwixFix Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I'm inclined to think you got the wrong pack. I have a 840wh KS14C, here's my charge curve from the Charge Doctor V2 using a 5a charger. It's not quite 840wh, but it's definitely closer to 840wh than 680wh. I ran the wheel until tilt-back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 20 hours ago, KingSong69 said: The BMS sends The Information to The Board....and says ...Full...empty...problem...etc Actually - BMS doesn't send anything anywhere outside of the battery pack. Standard packs have only two 2 pole plugs - one for charging and one for load. There is a zero communication between BMS and controller boards apart of the outputting the available voltage onto "load" / output plug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
US69 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 3 minutes ago, HEC said: Actually - BMS doesn't send anything anywhere outside of the battery pack. Standard packs have only two 2 pole plugs - one for charging and one for load. There is a zero communication between BMS and controller boards apart of the outputting the available voltage onto "load" / output plug. Sorry..send was to missunderstood...english is not my first language as everybody can see... I mean more ...the BMS is the handling the batterieinformation...not the board.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEC Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 @KingSong69 No worries I just pointed that out for other users so they'll not get impression that there is some data connection between those two boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmethvin Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 The original Firewheel board I had *did* run an extra wire from the BMS to the control board, but the replacement didn't have that wire. I don't think most newer EUCs have anything other than the two power lines. So that brings me back to the question. If the control board is measuring the voltage, and the 840Wh pack gets its extra power by being able to run down to a lower voltage, is there some setting on the control board to indicate this so that it won't tilt back too soon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TremF Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Ok. I now have my Charge Doctor V2 and looking at the site... I haven't a clue how to best use it for the ACM. Anyone any ideas please? Do I want to try and run my battery down and do a full recharge using the Charge Doctor to monitor or charge whenever using the auto shutdown feature to stop at 90%? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alien Rides Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share Posted June 28, 2016 4 hours ago, TremF said: Ok. I now have my Charge Doctor V2 and looking at the site... I haven't a clue how to best use it for the ACM. Anyone any ideas please? Do I want to try and run my battery down and do a full recharge using the Charge Doctor to monitor or charge whenever using the auto shutdown feature to stop at 90%? Nice! If you just plug it in it will show you the amount that it's charging. You can also limit the maximum charge if you want, but that's not the default so you should be good to use it as-is. I believe you can reset the amount charged by holding the button down for 2s: http://hobby16.neowp.fr/charge-doctor-features/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cloud Posted June 29, 2016 Share Posted June 29, 2016 3 hours ago, Kevin Grandon said: Nice! If you just plug it in it will show you the amount that it's charging. You can also limit the maximum charge if you want, but that's not the default so you should be good to use it as-is. I believe you can reset the amount charged by holding the button down for 2s: http://hobby16.neowp.fr/charge-doctor-features/ Yep, i just received the latest version of the charge doctor and it works great. I was using the 4A charger and limited the current to 3.9A . This made the charger stop when the batteries have been charged to about 64-65volts. One needs to hold the button for less than 5 seconds while plugging the charger in to enter the settings for the auto shut off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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