Thinking about downgrading.

[BlueJay]

If it wasn't for the weight requirement, the V10F would fit the bill. Top speed of 40 km/h, range of ~40km while riding at the top speed (with a 170lb rider dealing with prairie headwinds) 7lb lighter than the 18xl, and despite what people say about the trolley handle it's still pretty good; it's a great spot to hang your helmet, comfortable when pushing the wheel around backwards, and the wheel can still be lifted one-handed with the trolley handle up.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, BlueJay said:

If it wasn't for the weight requirement, the V10F would fit the bill. Top speed of 40 km/h, range of ~40km while riding at the top speed (with a 170lb rider dealing with prairie headwinds) 7lb lighter than the 18xl, and despite what people say about the trolley handle it's still pretty good; it's a great spot to hang your helmet, comfortable when pushing the wheel around backwards, and the wheel can still be lifted one-handed with the trolley handle up.

Fun fact. I don't even need to extend my 18xl handle. Yes while pushing it around i'm little bit leaned right side. But going from train seat to exit - it's okay.. Otherwise i'm carrying it everywhere else, when i step off. (As mentioned before: 3rd floor, workplace, etc..) I'm riding or carrying it. Rarely trolleying it while being on job/home ride.

Meaning i don't really need the trolley handle. Just good carry handle.  When i was choosing between 16X & 18XL. i simply went with 18XL, because it had more comfy handle. (16x - boxy handle. 18xl - more rounded handle.) Ofc the handle needs to have also motor kill switch built in. Or button near the handle, so you can press it while holding handle.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

13 hours ago, Funky said:

Yeah i get that lower "P" battery config - less power. But can't they simply use high discharge cells at lower "P" config? Like 2p high discharge will have same amount of power the 4p? Or are we talking about the 2p vs 4p total voltage together..? Don't really know how it works, but i get general idea

p (parallel ) means the voltage doesn't change the more batteries you have in parallel but the current does. My limited understanding is the greater the number in parallel the lower the voltage drop risk. Probably due to P=IV (Power=Current (amps) x Voltage (volts) due to the greater current in a 4p+ set up the drop in voltage doesn't impact the power to the wheel as much.

Believe me it takes no effort to overpower a weak wheel, and doesn't require hard acceleration to do it at all.

 

[rcgldr]

18L has 6 mosfets (unless this was changed in a later version), compared to 16X with 12 mosfets. I don't know what 18XL has.

 

[rcgldr]

22 hours ago, Funky said:

can't they simply use high discharge cells at lower "P" config?

Yes, such as the optional high discharge  Molicel P42A for S18's 20S3P pack (instead of LG M50T). There is also high discharge Molicel P45B and Samsung 40T , but so for, I'm not aware of a vendor offering these as an option for S18. Take a look at the differences in voltage versus load on battery tests:

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/LG 21700 M50T 5000mAh (Gray) UK.html

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Molicel INR21700-P42A 4200mAh (Gray) UK.html

https://lygte-info.dk/review/batteries2012/Samsung INR21700-40T 4000mAh (Cyan) UK.html

 

 

[alcatraz]

Samsung S50 should be somewhat of the best of both worlds. You can keep the 5000mAh and get 25-45A current output. 25A without temperature monitoring, and 45A with.

[mrelwood]

 

On 7/30/2023 at 1:35 AM, Funky said:

S18 weights 22kg

S22 with the standard battery weighs 25.5kg. 22kg was the announced weight of the prototype, which is why some shops still have that info. But it launched as 25.5kg.

 

On 7/30/2023 at 10:25 PM, Funky said:

Yeah i get that lower "P" battery config - less power. But can't they simply use high discharge cells at lower "P" config? Like 2p high discharge will have same amount of power the 4p? Or are we talking about the 2p vs 4p total voltage together..?

S makes the voltage, P makes the current, S*P makes the capacity. Of course 18650 cells (18XL) and 21700 cells (most since 2020) have different current and capacity parameters. A single 18650 usually has 12.6Wh of capacity, while a 21700 has 18Wh.

So a 20s4p pack (=84V) with 18650 is ~1000Wh, with 21700 it’s ~1500Wh.

On 7/30/2023 at 10:25 PM, Funky said:

6p battery that has "only" 600-800Wh overall, no?

From the parameters above, 60 pcs of 18650 cells would total 756Wh. But to make it 6p it would have to be 10s6p (60/6=10). That would make it a 42V wheel. That would account for a reeeaaallly slow top speed (or very little power with an uptuned motor).

 Your requirement of a 50km/h top speed is what’s the problem. High discharge cells on a (25.5kg  ) S18 (20s3p) should work tough.

Edited August 1, 2023 by mrelwood

[Funky]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

From the parameters above, 60 pcs of 18650 cells would total 756Wh. But to make it 6p it would have to be 10s6p (60/6=10). That would make it a 42V wheel. That would account for a reeeaaallly slow top speed (or very little power with an uptuned motor).

 Your requirement of a 50km/h top speed is what’s the problem. High discharge cells on a (25.5kg  ) S18 (20s3p) should work tough.

I was taking 6p just as "example" 4p should be okayish for 40k/h wheel? So you would need 80 cells. (2 pack each 40 cells - 20s2p. Combine both pack and you get 20s4p.) And that would be around ~1000Wh right?

If i understand it right 20 cells in "p" would make 84v wheel in this case.

Idk how many "P" you need to be pretty safe.. As you wont overpower it at little bump on road, etc.. And same time have enough power..

You said (20s3p) should be fine? So that would be 60 cells / 2 = 30 cells per pack = 10s3p.

 

Isn't my 18xl 20s6p? I got 120 cells, 60 per pack. - 20s3p per pack.. Combine both pack = 20s6p?

 

Meaning you can't really get lighter wheels, if you don't want to lose some "P".. Going from 6P to 4P or 3P... I think 3P for 40km/h wheel should be fine. I wonder what S/P setup has KS16S.. As it has 67V battery, meaning it has 64 cells? So 16s2p? Times 2 packs = 16s4p?

Edited August 2, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

So you would need 80 cells. (2 pack each 40 cells - 20s2p. ... You said (20s3p) should be fine?

 

80 cells would be 20S4P (with both packs in parallel), which is what the 18L and V10F use. As I mentioned before, 18L fuses (2 x 30 amps) add up to 60 amps, while V10F fuse is 40 amps, less peak power.

S18 20S3P should be fine if using the Molicel P42A cells (not the M50T cells). S18 weighs about the same as 18XL, so doesn't solve your goal of a lighter EUC.

 

[Funky]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

80 cells would be 20S4P (with both packs in parallel), which is what the 18L and V10F use. As I mentioned before, 18L fuses (2 x 30 amps) add up to 60 amps, while V10F fuse is 40 amps, less peak power.

S18 20S3P should be fine if using the Molicel P42A cells (not the M50T cells). S18 weighs about the same as 18XL, so doesn't solve your goal of a lighter EUC.

 

I even said that in my last post.. > The 20S4P part where one pack (40cells) would be 20S2P and both packs (80 cells) would make 20S4P.

And yes - i already knew about 18L, as it has 80 cells.

I think 20S3P should also be fine, if wheel is little bit slower (~40km/h). That alone would make 4kg lighter wheel.. As one 60 cell pack weighs about 4kg.

 

Sad that it's not possible to make 60km/h wheel with ~800Wh battery pack.  

[chanman]

11 minutes ago, Funky said:

60km/h wheel with ~800Wh

I think it's possible with high drain cells, but the range will be very poor at the high speeds. Something like a 24S2P of samsung 40Ts or the P42As could do it, giving 70A sustained power draw (assuming adequate cooling) and a 100V platform. By my math this is ~700Wh. Probably a 24S3P would be a much better compromise but if lightweight is the top priority you can shave a few pounds.

Edited August 2, 2023 by chanman

[Funky]

32 minutes ago, chanman said:

I think it's possible with high drain cells, but the range will be very poor at the high speeds. Something like a 24S2P of samsung 40Ts or the P42As could do it, giving 70A sustained power draw (assuming adequate cooling) and a 100V platform. By my math this is ~700Wh. Probably a 24S3P would be a much better compromise but if lightweight is the top priority you can shave a few pounds.

I bet most people daily commutes are under 30km range. (Or do people actually want to ride more than 30km every day going to job and things like that?) And when we are talking about light/small device for "last mile" commute. We don't need 50km+ range and so on.. Because it is small and light. Naturally it will have less range than those of 1500Wh or 3600Wh wheels.

Personally a 15km wheel would cover my trip to job and also back home.  Need be people can buy another charger and keep one at workplace. Charge it before going home.

Fun fact: I charge my 18xl once every 2 weeks.  When battery drops down to around ~50%. (I already said that.)

Edited August 2, 2023 by Funky

[Nostris]

I’ve got a V12HT which I moved on to after my learner V8f. I thought at the time that I’d sell the V8…but it’s a keeper. I still use it loads …for errands, shopping, dog walks etc. I just love its size/ weight/ performance…it’s so easy to live with.., It’s always in the car..just in case. The 12 is great and a super ride..but I have to decide to use it. At 30kgs it’s simply not as easy to take around in the car, or to load and unload or carry up stairs etc. I’m hoping that eventually there will be a renaissance of the lighter weight wheels..they are so useful to have.  The M10-3/4 I can live without..it’s too much of a toy and the 10”/11” tyre is too problematic on the very rough roads we have here. 

[Funky]

38 minutes ago, Nostris said:

The M10-3/4 I can live without..it’s too much of a toy and the 10”/11” tyre is too problematic on the very rough roads we have here. 

Same thing here, that's why i don't want anything smaller than 16x3". But same time i don't really want a suspension.. I want simply very strong axle - so i can ride over all potholes, road imperfections, without worry of a cracked/bent axle. (Not worried about cracked rim, as those imperfections aren't that big..)

More or less like a "fixie" bicycle - very simple and low maintenance. Suspension is simply another failure point down the road. (Sure once a year maintenance is okayish.. Still not having anything to maintain is better.)

[mrelwood]

On 8/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, Funky said:

I was taking 6p just as "example" 4p should be okayish for 40k/h wheel? So you would need 80 cells. (2 pack each 40 cells - 20s2p. Combine both pack and you get 20s4p.) And that would be around ~1000Wh right?

Yes. And V10F has that exact battery config with 18650s and a 40km/h top speed.

On 8/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, Funky said:

If i understand it right 20 cells in "p" would make 84v wheel in this case.

In “s”, series. But yes, 20s * 4.2V = 84V.

On 8/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, Funky said:

Idk how many "P" you need to be pretty safe.. As you wont overpower it at little bump on road, etc.. And same time have enough power..

You said (20s3p) should be fine? So that would be 60 cells / 2 = 30 cells per pack = 10s3p.

Parallel cells isn’t the only thing to keep us safe, so it’s hard to answer. 18650 or 21700? Which voltage? Which cells? What speed? Etc.

20s3p with standard 21700 cells (S18) is up for 50km/h speeds only for light riders, but with high discharge cells it would do well with adult weights as well.

On 8/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, Funky said:

Isn't my 18xl 20s6p? I got 120 cells, 60 per pack.

Yes. 18650.

On 8/2/2023 at 2:42 PM, Funky said:

I wonder what S/P setup has KS16S.. As it has 67V battery, meaning it has 64 cells? So 16s2p? Times 2 packs = 16s4p?

Yes. With 18650 cells as well. Top speed 35km/h.

On 8/2/2023 at 9:00 PM, Funky said:

Sad that it's not possible to make 60km/h wheel with ~800Wh battery pack.  

The mentioned 24s2p high discharge 21700 combo just might be up for it. 100.8V, 690Wh. Not sure though.

 

 What many riders don’t even know is that just 6-7 years ago we were riding 16s2p (320Wh) wheels and were happiest we ever were on those magnificent and magical futuristic devices. Sure, top speed was 22km/h, but that was normal back then. I didn’t see much outcry for significantly faster or more powerful wheels.

[MadVlad]

I am getting too old to rely on Chinese electronics to keep me from nosediving into pavement. I trust my riding skills, I dont trust other people around me to not do something stupid like step into my path or drive a car into me, and I dont trust electronics, hence I dont really ride much faster than I can sprint. I am really amazed that some people are willing to go 45+ mph on something that will make them superman into a pavement if it malfunctions. I have seen what can happen at those speeds from motorcycle riding and wooooooo.

[Funky]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 What many riders don’t even know is that just 6-7 years ago we were riding 16s2p (320Wh) wheels and were happiest we ever were on those magnificent and magical futuristic devices. Sure, top speed was 22km/h, but that was normal back then. I didn’t see much outcry for significantly faster or more powerful wheels.

I only found out about EUC's in 2020/2021 year. (Or more or less started to interest about them.) But even i knew the first wheels ever been made would have been weak as hell..

Nowadays people just want to go faster and faster. Same time having more range - the better. Sure i also would like that. But i don't like the extra weight, that comes with all that performance.

I personally would be happy with 40km/h wheel that has bout 20km range. But built light as possible.. Back in the day euc actually was kind of "better" - more simple. Compared to nowadays euc's - they are electric motorcycles. 

I kind of miss those years, when 15-25kg wheels where being made for the first time. Now it's only getting heavier and heavier each passing year. Even 16" wheels now weight over 40kg. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Funky

[Hellkitten]

Consider investing in a helium tank and a large stash of balloons. Attach a bunch to your backpack, now you have more range AND a safety device for bailing. 

[Murdomeek]

bro wth.

Everyone here is suggesting great wheels for your stated needs.  But you shoot them down with "not powerful enough for my fat ass".

So you want a lighter, smaller, weaker euc than your 18XL.  But they're all too 'weak' for you.  

 

Strong EUC's require bigger motors and more batteries to keep heavy riders upright. You cant beat physics.  Maybe you should loose a few lbs so our suggested euc's can support your weight

 

[Funky]

13 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

bro wth.

Everyone here is suggesting great wheels for your stated needs.  But you shoot them down with "not powerful enough for my fat ass".

So you want a lighter, smaller, weaker euc than your 18XL.  But they're all too 'weak' for you.  

 

Strong EUC's require bigger motors and more batteries to keep heavy riders upright. You cant beat physics.  Maybe you should loose a few lbs so our suggested euc's can support your weight

 

Looks like you completely missed what I'm after.... 

Weak not by performance.. Weak by design. (Build quality.) I don't care how fast, and how powerful it is. I'm riding under 30km/h when commuting to job.

And only one of them has the hollow bore axle which i want, same time being under 20kg weight. Maybe A2, as it's axle looks beefier than my 18xl. (Still i'm scared of it's "tin can" side walls for case. How easy is it to bend them?)

All other have the regular axle which my 18xl already has. And exchanging my 18xl for same design, but 5kg lighter isn't worth in my mind. 

 

I would be happy riding V8/KS16S so on.. They are simply 2 "weak". (Weight limit.) Have even riden KS16S without problems. Didn't overpower, etc..

 

Believe me, i have already looked at all euc's.. I already said in first post, that i will be downgrading - WHEN i find an euc that i like. (Future releases..)

Edited August 5, 2023 by Funky

[Schmudel]

Actually, i don't think @Murdomeekis missing what you are after at all. You have been ranting and complaining about every wheel that came out after the Dinosaur that you are riding and calling everybody names for a long time now. Have you even seen (other than on the internet) or tried any of the newer wheels?

Also, you might want to change the title of your post to “Thinking about upgrading”. I am positive that any wheel that you will buy now (if you ever will) is definitely an upgrade to what you currently own, not a downgrade.

 

[varamontelo]

If the choice is too selective, it becomes almost difficult. In this situation, one could buy a slightly upgraded euc and buy a lower euc. In this case we have two wheels according to the intended use.

[Funky]

35 minutes ago, Schmudel said:

Actually, i don't think @Murdomeekis missing what you are after at all. You have been ranting and complaining about every wheel that came out after the Dinosaur that you are riding and calling everybody names for a long time now. Have you even seen (other than on the internet) or tried any of the newer wheels?

Also, you might want to change the title of your post to “Thinking about upgrading”. I am positive that any wheel that you will buy now (if you ever will) is definitely an upgrade to what you currently own, not a downgrade.

 

Getting something slower, less powerful isn't a "downgrade" hmm.. Next thing you will say - the sky is ground and ground is sky.

Even if i bought the A2, it also would be downgrade every possible way. Less powerful, smaller wheel size, slower, etc.. Only big pluses - somewhat waterproof and modern style and little bit lighter.

xD Dinosaur, at least it's better built than some of new "modern" ones. (Where most first batch wheels are simply a fail. Example S20 launch was so bad - half baked suspension and motor slippage.) Who have i called names? Have not attack or called anyone names on this forum. Aside of the manufacturers themselves. And down the road most people have more or less agreed the same. Aka making dumb designs and simply not good/particular wheels.

Have seen many wheels in store. (Not many ridders around here in the wild.) Have not tried any of the "modern" ones. Simply because they are to heavy. Pointless even trying them out.. Because i would not buy them anyways. I don't need a heavy monster euc for 5km commute. Doh if i was euc hobbyist, who likes to ride around all day. Then yeah.. I think i would have gotten a big monster - just for fun. But i'm not one. And have no need for any of the "modern" euc's, which are heavy and built for speed/range.

For my specific needs, my dinosaur was and still is the best wheel out there right now. None of the new ones are "better". (By better i mean lighter, somewhat same power, could have smaller battery, waterproof, etc.. etc..) In short - yes all new wheels are simply shit. Because of my particular needs/wants. V13 - shit. Master - shit. S19 - shit. Patton - shit. Sherman - shit. Anything over 25kg - shit. (Shit to me, to you it may be best wheel ever made.)

[Funky]

9 minutes ago, varamontelo said:

If the choice is too selective, it becomes almost difficult. In this situation, one could buy a slightly upgraded euc and buy a lower euc. In this case we have two wheels according to the intended use.

In my case i only have one use case - commute to job. Riding around endlessly isn't fun to me.

[EkW]

Maybe if Inmotion makes good on supplying wheels with removable battery packs that allow one to ride with the minimum battery needed for the task we will finally have a lightweight but robust wheel. I also don’t go fast or far and hate carrying a heavy object up stairs. I can at least try to roll my cargo bike up the stairs instead of fully lifting it. I am glad that I am a lightweight (under 75 kgs) and can get by with a V8F. It goes fast enough and gets me up the hill to my house without strain if I don’t try to go fast. Being able to easily lift the wheel into and out of my car was my biggest reason for resisting heavy wheels prior to retirement. Also, I don’t want to go over 30 kph or need to go over 10 km per day.

 I stayed away from the forum for a while because it seems that all of the wheels were about going faster and further. Lots of us just want to go to the market or park or transit or do the ‘last mile’ thing for the commute. Many non-enthusiasts just want to get from here to there and back without undue strain. More options are needed for the low speed, short range rider. Designing a wheel for heavy riders in hilly regions that isn’t also very heavy is a challenge. Until much better batteries arrive maybe removable batteries will help people like Funky to obtain their dream wheel.