Thinking about downgrading.

[varamontelo]

There are wheels like the V5F which is strong, light, fast in town and slow in the country. I used it every day, it's my first wheel. In 2023 it still satisfies riders who do not travel a hundred kilometers with 90 kilograms. We don't forget the forum for a number of big wheels, but for a mood, an atmosphere, an unpleasant conversation. This site is an encyclopedia for the light and for the heavy.

[Mono]

On 7/25/2023 at 3:28 PM, Funky said:

Yeah V8S simply are to weak for me.

Is this an "on paper" consideration or did you try it? What happened if you did?

[Funky]

17 minutes ago, Mono said:

Is this an "on paper" consideration or did you try it? What happened if you did?

Weak axle.. Power wise i think i would be somewhat happy. Doh would be riding close to it's limits.

[Mono]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

Weak axle.. Power wise i think i would be somewhat happy. Doh would be riding close to it's limits.

The V8F/S model has a much stronger axle since about a year. I'd be surprised if we were to see new reports about broken axles from here (with the new motor version). On the downside, my new V8F weighs 17.0kg (the first motors were a kg or two lighter). The new motor+controller+... seem also slightly more powerful, but I am not entirely certain about this one.

BTW, the newest V8F "evo" has also ~13% more battery capacity than its predecessor, namely 584Wh vs 518Wh.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Mono

[Funky]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

The V8F/S model has a much stronger axle since about a year. I'd be surprised if we were to see new reports about broken axles from here (with the new motor version). On the downside, my new V8F weighs 17.0kg (the first motors were a kg or two lighter). The new motor+controller+... seem also slightly more powerful, but I am not entirely certain about this one.

BTW, the newest V8F "evo" has also ~13% more battery capacity than its predecessor, namely 584Wh vs 518Wh.

I think A2 at 19kg is somewhat better option then. (If it's 19.. Some pages say 22..)

Also ks16s has 840Wh, 1200W motor and weighs 18kg. 1 more kg for somewhat better wheel. (Still could ride whole week with one charge.)

My eyes are somewhat goggling A2, if it's 19kg. (Pedals alone are worth 200$.) But i still don't like how it uses the same motor/power as Mten4.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Funky

[rcgldr]

12 hours ago, Funky said:

I think A2 at 19kg 

Marty Backe got a broken ankle at around 12 to 15 mph on an A2 that just shut off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-LfA92odc

 

[Mono]

15 hours ago, Funky said:

I think A2 at 19kg is somewhat better option then. (If it's 19.. Some pages say 22..)

I was considering the A2 too, but it doesn't quite impose itself as a casual wheel for day-to-day last miles usage, it doesn't even have a trolley handle and I still very much prefer to go below than above 17kg (and I was a little bit in a hurry too, the A2 just came out).

14 hours ago, Funky said:

Also ks16s has 840Wh, 1200W motor and weighs 18kg. 1 more kg for somewhat better wheel.

I don't know, I looked at these wheels a lot and saw no way to conclude that the KS16s is the better wheel compared to the V8F. For a KingSong, I would have bought the KS14d.

[Funky]

3 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Marty Backe got a broken ankle at around 12 to 15 mph on an A2 that just shut off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-LfA92odc

 

Saw and knew. So now all A2 are bad...?

Did they find out why it shut off at the end? Or still mystery?

[mrelwood]

 

3 hours ago, Mono said:

saw no way to conclude that the KS16s is the better wheel compared to the V8F.

It’s higher power is quite immediately obvious, especially if you’re a heavier rider. The V8F is not suitable for a 100kg rider for example. Maybe not for 90kg either. It just feels like it would collapse under you if you were to ride down a few curbs. 16S otoh was very capable, and I rode it at 35km/h max speed quite often back when it was my daily.

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Did they find out why it shut off at the end? Or still mystery?

Still a mystery. Begode did say that they located the components with the issue, but Roger removed the claimed component from the BMS of an A2, and it still worked seemingly without issues. So that wasn’t it.

Edited August 8, 2023 by mrelwood

[Mono]

44 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

It’s higher power is quite immediately obvious, especially if you’re a heavier rider.

I don't know, power numbers on specifications are far from being objective and, I'd say, at best marginally meaningful. Power is only a factor when the wheel was actually outleaned. Before that, the power capabilities of the motor are not a factor in how "powerful the wheel feels". I'd certainly be interested in learning when and how riders outleaned a V8F.

44 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The V8F is not suitable for a 100kg rider for example. Maybe not for 90kg either. It just feels like it would collapse under you if you were to ride down a few curbs.

The updated motor+axle should make this worry of a collapse rather obsolete. The weakest point now is, AFAICS, the pedals which, correct me if I am wrong, are the same of those used on the V10 (and I suspect also the V11?).

Edited August 8, 2023 by Mono

[cowtc]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

Saw and knew. So now all A2 are bad...?

Did they find out why it shut off at the end? Or still mystery?

Personally (just my theory) think it's something to do with the change to street tire. I think Marty said a street tire would suit the A2 and Begode sent him one and that was the one that had the shut off. The A2 is factory assembled with an off-road tire, so for them to send one with a street tire they may have disassembled one to change the tire and maybe something wasn't quite right in that process. Of course this is all my theory and stand to be corrected.

[MadVlad]

9 hours ago, cowtc said:

Personally (just my theory) think it's something to do with the change to street tire. I think Marty said a street tire would suit the A2 and Begode sent him one and that was the one that had the shut off. The A2 is factory assembled with an off-road tire, so for them to send one with a street tire they may have disassembled one to change the tire and maybe something wasn't quite right in that process. Of course this is all my theory and stand to be corrected.

And thats exactly the type of stuff I was talking about on the previous page, the guy ended up with a severe fracture from 15mph, and i doubt he did anything wrong in terms of riding  skill. At least with two wheels if the thing fails you can ride it out or slide it out, but with an euc you are going down in a very awkward way, especially if you are tall, and then tumbling into whatever. I came out of some motorcycle wrecks beaten up but 0 fractures because of the way you fall on those and because the bike ate up a lot of it instead of my body. Dont know if I would want to experience a 45+ mph EUC crash.

[mrelwood]

15 hours ago, Mono said:

I don't know, power numbers on specifications are far from being objective and, I'd say, at best marginally meaningful. Power is only a factor when the wheel was actually outleaned. Before that, the power capabilities of the motor are not a factor in how "powerful the wheel feels". I'd certainly be interested in learning when and how riders outleaned a V8F.

That’s exactly what I tend to preach. In the case of a 100kg on a V8F, it doesn’t take much of an incline to get even medium accelerations to feel iffy, and the wheel starts to give in. We have a long medium strength uphill next to our house that I rode up with a V8F on a full battery, and despite being a relatively calm rider, I had to be quite careful not to overpower the wheel.

15 hours ago, Mono said:

The updated motor+axle should make this worry of a collapse rather obsolete. The weakest point now is, AFAICS, the pedals which, correct me if I am wrong, are the same of those used on the V10 (and I suspect also the V11?).

V10F pedals were beefed up a few years ago, and to my knowledge the V8F pedals were not. V11 pedals are different though, a clearly sturdier design. But the weakest link in the V8F is probably the shell and it’s thin secrion that bolts on to the pedal brackets.

 Talking about the A2 though, one burst into flames in a Korean subway. This is probably the rockiest EUC launch of all times:

https://t.me/s_EUC/59257

[Funky]

11 hours ago, MadVlad said:

And thats exactly the type of stuff I was talking about on the previous page, the guy ended up with a severe fracture from 15mph, and i doubt he did anything wrong in terms of riding  skill. At least with two wheels if the thing fails you can ride it out or slide it out, but with an euc you are going down in a very awkward way, especially if you are tall, and then tumbling into whatever. I came out of some motorcycle wrecks beaten up but 0 fractures because of the way you fall on those and because the bike ate up a lot of it instead of my body. Dont know if I would want to experience a 45+ mph EUC crash.

And here I'm riding without any gear each day to job. (only wrist guards, 4km commute.)  You need to be ready 2 run.. Ofc if you're ridding at running speed.

[Funky]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 Talking about the A2 though, one burst into flames in a Korean subway. This is probably the rockiest EUC launch of all times:

https://t.me/s_EUC/59257

Emm... S20? The flamethrower 9000.

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Funky said:

Emm... S20? The flamethrower 9000.

I don’t recall a high profile surgery demanding modest speed crash on it.

[Funky]

9 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t recall a high profile surgery demanding modest speed crash on it.

Meh, simply unlucky landing.. Doh after fire, it's already added to my dumpster list of wheels. Also it was already "meh".

[mrelwood]

19 minutes ago, Funky said:

Meh, simply unlucky landing..

I meant to type cutout, not a crash. There are no lucky landings from cutouts.

19 minutes ago, Funky said:

Doh after fire, it's already added to my dumpster list of wheels. Also it was already "meh".

I do agree with these.

[Mono]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

V10F pedals were beefed up a few years ago, and to my knowledge the V8F pedals were not

maybe it's because the V8F was introduced only after the V10 pedal design already had been improved which was more than two years ago, IIRC. In any case, both of my V8F are equipped with an improved version of the old V10 pedals (I can't say for certain whether the very same improved version is used on the current V10).  

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But the weakest link in the V8F is probably the shell and it’s thin secrion that bolts on to the pedal brackets.

Compared to the pedal hangers or the axle it doesn't take lots of forces either. When I had a cracked shell on the V8 it was always due to a broken axle. I even removed 4 of the 8 screws connecting the shell to the hangers on the V8F and it worked just fine, but a single success is of course not a measure for reliability.

[Funky]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

I meant to type cutout, not a crash. There are no lucky landings from cutouts.

Hmm.. I never have had cutout so idk. But at winter i have often simply "run-out" of a fall. You know when wheel starts sliding sideways or when you go true bigger snow and wheel starts spinning in place - because of the pedals lifting whole euc upwards on harder packed snow. Euc stays behind you and you simply run out.

Don't you notice when you start falling, because euc have lost "balancing"?  You simply step forwards.. (Ofc if you have been leaning forwards when cutout happens, then you gonna fall forwards.) Less lean - more time to notice also.

 

My first slow speed falls where pretty "okayish", same thing as falling forwards from ground. ~15cm higher from ground makes almost no difference. Compared to regular bicycle falls. Ill take EUC falls any day of week, because most times you can run out of it. Bicycle sliding on ice - gg you go sideways with whole bike.  

Edited August 9, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

 

1 hour ago, Funky said:

Don't you notice when you start falling, because euc have lost "balancing"?  You simply step forwards..

Sure, if there’s still a platform to step off from. In an overlean, slide, or curb too high there is. In a sudden cutout there is not. It’s like the difference in having your bicycle’s rear tire loose grip vs the front tire. The former is fun and something worth aiming for, the latter is an instant crash.

 Try this: Go outside with your wheel. Don’t turn the wheel on. Step on the wheel anyway. Stay on for 2-3 seconds and then step off.

Disclaimer: Won’t pay your hospital bills or any other costs that are caused by this experiment...

 

[Funky]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 Try this: Go outside with your wheel. Don’t turn the wheel on. Step on the wheel anyway. Stay on for 2-3 seconds and then step off.

And? Wheel started to fall forwards or backwards instantly, when i started to jump on.. You still have footing for slit second. It isn't falling side to side. Only front/back.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Funky said:

It isn't falling side to side.

We were talking about how a cutout feels. A cutout doesn’t make you fall side to side either.

[Mono]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Try this: Go outside with your wheel. Don’t turn the wheel on. Step on the wheel anyway. Stay on for 2-3 seconds and then step off.

I've mounted the deliberately unpowered wheel dozens and dozens of times and would recommend it as an exercise to every advanced rider. To me, it's impossible to stay on it for 2-3 seconds, so I use a handrail for this exercise (and it's still somewhat difficult). The exercise fuels the understanding that there is a (big) difference between jumping off and stepping off in the meaning of abandoning the wheel for reliable ground support and not using it as support in the process (as opposed to jumping which requires a supporting platform to jump off of). It seems also a good idea to experience and even get used how exactly an unpowered wheel feels, just in case 

[eezo]

20 hours ago, Funky said:

Hmm.. I never have had cutout so idk.

...

Don't you notice when you start falling, because euc have lost "balancing"?  You simply step forwards.. (Ofc if you have been leaning forwards when cutout happens, then you gonna fall forwards.) Less lean - more time to notice also.

Have you ever watched videos of people riding when a wheel cuts out? There's no such thing as simply stepping forwards or running it out, you're going down. It happens far faster than you can react and the unpowered wheel shell will tip faster than you can decide to start running.

Edited August 10, 2023 by eezo