Thinking about downgrading.

[Funky]

10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

We were talking about how a cutout feels. A cutout doesn’t make you fall side to side either.

So my point stays - you simply step forwards.   (Then again i'm talking about running speeds rides..)

[Funky]

58 minutes ago, eezo said:

Have you ever watched videos of people riding when a wheel cuts out? There's no such thing as simply stepping forwards or running it out, you're going down. It happens far faster than you can react and the unpowered wheel shell will tip faster than you can decide to start running.

That's why you ride being ready to fall any moment.. Don't ride without any care in mind.

Same thing when you are falling, naturally you would put hands in front of you. The moment when you start falling it feels like time has stopped for split seconds and you react pretty past.. (At least that's how it feels to me.)

 

 

 

 

Anyways we are getting way of topic. I don't care about cutouts. Because im ridding at running speeds when not geared.

Edited August 10, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

On 8/10/2023 at 6:46 PM, Funky said:

The moment when you start falling it feels like time has stopped for split seconds and you react pretty past..

Here’s a slow speed cutoff. Not an over lean like most “cutoff” videos. Why didn’t the guy just run it off?

And here’s an overlean at running speed, that has much more time to react than a cutout. Why didn’t he just run it off?

https://youtube.com/shorts/-57N5AuucE4?si=iB9iYmKpNU7QroLl

[Mono]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Here’s a slow speed cutoff. Not an over lean like most “cutoff” videos. Why didn’t the guy just run it off?

Because he was surprised by the chain of events and was not prepared to let the (useless) wheel go soon enough for staying on the feet. Additionally, inferring from the arm movements we can see, this track was not comfortably within the limits of his riding skills which leaves little room to address unexpected events.

On the other hand, there was also no real need to run it off, so maybe he didn't even intend to do so. Dropping on the knees was just a fine reaction too under these circumstances.

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

And here’s an overlean at running speed, that has much more time to react than a cutout. Why didn’t he just run it off?

Because his knees were already behind his shoulders when the incident occured. Then, carrying a package inhibiting arm movements and being busy with showing off made it harder too.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

On 8/10/2023 at 4:49 PM, eezo said:

Have you ever watched videos of people riding when a wheel cuts out? There's no such thing as simply stepping forwards or running it out, you're going down.

What happens depends on the speed and the skill of the rider. "Not having found on YT" is not the same as non-existent.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Mono

[Planemo]

59 minutes ago, Mono said:

What happens depends on the speed and the skill of the rider. "Not having found on YT" is not the same as non-existent.

I like that comeback. And of course you're right. But then I could add...there is a distinct lack of videos, anywhere, at any speed, showing someone running off a cutout. I'm with @mrelwood on this, but more than happy to be proved wrong by this elusive superhuman 

 

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

But then I could add...there is a distinct lack of videos, anywhere, at any speed, showing someone running off a cutout.

Right, the absence of evidence is evidence in itself. However to begin with, cutouts are very rare events except for lean angle cutouts and (the slightly less sudden) overleans.

I suspect you have seen people losing the wheel without falling? This is in my experience a very common even. For me, it's far more than 90% of the time that I don't fall when I lose the wheel, usually at (very) low speeds.

I have seen people on video running off when the wheel disappeared under them. I can distinctively remember a funny one which stopped right when the wheel disappeared under the rider and it was clear that he will go down. The memorizably funny part was that he didn't which was only shown in a second clip and to me at that point in time hard to believe even after knowing the outcome. I'll consider to start a stepping-off-the-wheel thread the next time I stumble over a reasonable good example (but I don't watch lots of this content these days).

On the other hand, I have personally run off the scenario where I drove into a big-ish curb that I didn't see coming at least twice. I didn't even know there was a curb before I hit it. It was sudden and there was no way to stay on the wheel and I was surprised that I didn't fall. It might be an easier scenario than a cutout due to the certainty that the wheel is gone before one can even think. This suggests that one crucial point is to abandon the wheel early enough and a common mistake is to try to hang on for too long.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Mono

[Funky]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Here’s a slow speed cutoff. Not an over lean like most “cutoff” videos. Why didn’t the guy just run it off?

And here’s an overlean at running speed, that has much more time to react than a cutout. Why didn’t he just run it off?

https://youtube.com/shorts/-57N5AuucE4?si=iB9iYmKpNU7QroLl

First one slow reaction time..(Also didn't help that he was turning +dumb pads in way.) Second one was leaning way to much, but he tried to run out.. If he didn't lean that much, i bet he could have run out.

Simple.

[Funky]

50 minutes ago, Mono said:

On the other hand, I have personally run off the scenario where I drove into a big-ish curb that I didn't see coming at least twice.

I did that in my first ride in city.  I mean literally very first ride around city.. Wheel hit curb and dropped sideways - i simply run out. Luckily i was going around ~15km/h then. And i did start to break, before hitting curb.

Doh you still could hoop off pretty easily, because wheel still had "balance". Same thing as stepping on/off wheel, but in mid ride. Loosing "balancing" aspect (cutoff), it's completely different feeling. Same thing as hooping off unpowered wheel. You don't have even slit second to react. 

Meaning you can completely forget about "hopping" off part and simply start running. As soon as you feel wheel going down - start running. Don't hoop. (Aka forget that you have wheel under you - start running.)  

Edited August 13, 2023 by Funky

[mrelwood]

 

9 hours ago, Funky said:

First one slow reaction time..(Also didn't help that he was turning +dumb pads in way.) Second one was leaning way to much, but he tried to run out.. If he didn't lean that much, i bet he could have run out.

Simple.

The first video was slowed down a fair bit. You can’t expect a top reaction time for a surprising event. He was riding off-road, so his concentration was active. When you commute, it’s not.

 Anyway. Both did go down. Simple.

 

9 hours ago, Funky said:

Doh you still could hoop off pretty easily, because wheel still had "balance".

That’s a good point. When riding into a curb, the wheel usually stays upright, offering you a rigid surface to step off from.

 Only partially related, but a deflated tire is another sure way to go down. The wheel simply doesn’t turn anymore. You tilt to the left to turn or keep balance, but the wheel continues straight. And you go down.

[MadVlad]

There really arent very many good versions of crashing an EUC, either you flop forward at speed and trash your arms/palms/face, or you fall sideways and your collarbone/shoulder take the hit, or you try to run it off and your legs take the impact, which can be really nasty. In motorcycling there is an injury called "de-gloving", it happens when the bike is going down and the rider instinctively plants their foot down, the foot then gets traction, stops, and then does some form of a 180 twist, in the worst cases the foot and part of the leg stay in the boot on the ground while the rest of you travels forward. The reason I say this is that many EUCs are now reaching speeds where injuries like this are very possible. Motorcycle gear is great for abrasion, sliding, not that great for impact or twisting motion. I dont have the statistics to tell you what you best bet for minimizing injury is while falling from an EUC, but I can tell you that at a certain speed your instincts can do bad things to you.  

[rcgldr]

Lando Cycle doing acceleration tests on a V8F, blew the fuse | cutout on his second acceleration run at slow speed, managed to get a few steps before rolling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAEOnvDNaYw&t=732s

Dawn Champion cutout on Master at 55 mph, faceplant onto left shoulder (earlier in the video, she states she usually falls onto left shoulder). Gear worked (but was damaged), only some road rash on left shoulder. Tether kept Master from tumbling too much before the tether released from her. She's also low sided on motorcycles at 100 mph. Video is from far away, zoomed in via editing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLxd8FXFFx8&t=908s

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by rcgldr

[MadVlad]

16 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

Lando Cycle doing acceleration tests on a V8F, blew the fuse | cutout on his second acceleration run at slow speed, managed to get a few steps before rolling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAEOnvDNaYw&t=732s

Dawn Champion cutout on Master at 55 mph, faceplant onto left shoulder (earlier in the video, she states she usually falls onto left shoulder). Gear worked (but was damaged), only some road rash on left shoulder. Tether kept Master from tumbling too much before the tether released from her. She's also low sided on motorcycles at 100 mph. Video is from far away, zoomed in via editing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLxd8FXFFx8&t=908s

 

There are a lot of factors to consider, from height and body weight, to environment. She landed on her shoulder and didnt break it, a guy is generally more top heavy and taller, lands in the same way ... broken collarbone. She slid on the highway and got abrasion, you slide into a curb at the same speed and whatever body part hits that curb is getting obliterated. Falling is a skill, but there is also a lot of luck involved.

[Funky]

Don't care. I'm not gonna gear up for 4km commute. (2km one way.) 500 meters to train. And then 1.5km till job. Ridding at running speed it takes 5 minutes.. Heck i can leave work/home faster and ride even slower. I still need to wait for the train anyways. I know how long it will take to get there, so i ride accordingly. 

I know cut-out can happen any speed/moment. I simply don't see the need of gear at such slow speeds. Same speeds when i was learning first time to ride. I had zero gear then.. I did fall and so on.

 Same for 55 years old man. He rides without any gear at all. And have been doing that for much longer than me. Passing already 3rd year. Has fallen also some times. But most times he has simply run out of a fall.

I have been thinking about stopping using wrist guards even.. But as i work with hands daily. I'm still using them. It isn't worth getting a broken wrist, it takes 10 seconds to put on them. As for helmet - it's to bulky. Knee guards - meh..

 

The main topic was about "downgrading" for my next wheel. As 18xl is simply "too" powerful.. I don't need the range at all. And speed also at 30km/h would be plenty. I don't accelerate fast at all. And my roads/paths are smooth and straight. That's why i would like to exchange that not needed battery/range and speed for something lighter.

I can only hope some manufacturer will make something actually decent at or under 20kg weight in next year or two.. Would also love if it had real 16x3" tire (12" rim).

[rcgldr]

4 hours ago, MadVlad said:

Falling is a skill, but there is also a lot of luck involved.

Marty Backe had an A2 (now called the assassin A2)  shut off at 12 to 15 mph, severely braking his ankle (so very bad luck). It will take months to recover. Roger EUC disassembled the A2 twice, the second time after Begode suggested a diode might be a problem, so he removed the diode and it still runs fine. The cause of the shutoff is unknown.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_R-LfA92odc

 

Edited August 16, 2023 by rcgldr