Thinking about downgrading.

[Uras]

2 hours ago, techyiam said:

Not really.  No one will be able to help him atm.

The culprit lies with the buyer.

It boils down to being @Funky simply is not ready to buy a new wheel yet.

 

I can understand that. I often spend a lot of time researching something then do nothing. If something doesn't sell itself, keep your money. I'm also hard to satisfy. I usually buy when things are at an incredible discount which makes it easier to live with the shortfalls.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Uras

[Guillaume_k]

8 hours ago, techyiam said:

No one will be able to help him atm.

Except manufacturers reading the segmentation of the market imho. Lighter (including suspended) wheels seem to be in development. I’d love to see sales figures and better understand what drives product development cycles.  The « does it all » wheel doesn’t exist, and commuters like @Funky (and myself) would love more options in the  light wheel segment with some bells and whistles of bigger/heavier models. They’ll come, if manufacturers feel the niche within the niche is profitable enough. 

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Guillaume_k said:

They’ll come, if manufacturers feel the niche within the niche is profitable enough. 

I am not seeing any movement in this space at the moment except for lip service.

I don't see profitability.

The closest we got is from Begode with the A2. That was possible only because it was based on the mten4.

I think the mten4 is selling OK, the A2, not so much?

Is there a completely new from the ground up light weight suspension wheel in development? I am not aware of one. 

 

[Funky]

11 hours ago, techyiam said:

Not really.  No one will be able to help him atm.

The culprit lies with the buyer.

It boils down to being @Funky simply is not ready to buy a new wheel yet.

 

I have quit a lot of money put aside. I simply don't see any wheel worth my money. (I don't like any of them..)

I can sell my 18xl any moment and buy new wheel in 2500$ price. Yes i'm ready to pay that much for 1000Wh 40km/h wheel. IF i like it.

8 hours ago, Uras said:

I can understand that. I often spend a lot of time researching something then do nothing. If something doesn't sell itself, keep your money. I'm also hard to satisfy. I usually buy when things are at an incredible discount which makes it easier to live with the shortfalls.

Same for me. Aside of the last part buying things at discount. I simply see something that i already don't like - i don't buy it. It doesn't matter to me of wheel cost 1000/2000/3000$ If i don't like something - the price wont fix the thing i don't like.

2 hours ago, Guillaume_k said:

Except manufacturers reading the segmentation of the market imho. Lighter (including suspended) wheels seem to be in development. I’d love to see sales figures and better understand what drives product development cycles.  The « does it all » wheel doesn’t exist, and commuters like @Funky (and myself) would love more options in the  light wheel segment with some bells and whistles of bigger/heavier models. They’ll come, if manufacturers feel the niche within the niche is profitable enough. 

I have already said it dozen times. Big wheels sell at bigger profit. - They don't make lightweight anymore.. (Making small wheel vs big wheel - time to make them is the same. Having profit at 500$ vs 2000$.. Guess which one they will make.)

I don't even want suspension.. Because i don't really need it? And another failure point down the road.. I'm riding more or less smooth sidewalks.

I would love to have something like V13 without suspension mod. But at 20kg weight. (Make small battery, weaker motor, lighter case, anything to get to 20kg point..)

44 minutes ago, techyiam said:

I am not seeing any movement in this space at the moment except for lip service.

I don't see profitability.

The closest we got is from Begode with the A2. That was possible only because it was based on the mten4.

I think the mten4 is selling OK, the A2, not so much?

Is there a completely new from the ground up light weight suspension wheel in development? I am not aware of one. 

 

I actually kind of liked A2 till i found out it used same Mten4 motor... And those flimsy weak side panels for case. (Why could not they add little bit ticker metal at sides..?)

As i said almost perfect wheel. If only they didn't use weaker motor of a smaller wheel and had stronger case.

I wonder why A2 doesn't sell well.. Do you really need to think about why? Because of the Mten4 motor. It easily could have had 1500-2000W motor. And regular 16x3" tire, easily 20kg wheel. You can even close the side gaps around the tire very easily (Add extra metal or plastic cutouts.)

It would have been perfect rain riding commuter wheel. (And as begode - hater, i would have even bought it.. Because it would have been perfect wheel.)

Edited July 29, 2023 by Funky

[techyiam]

26 minutes ago, Funky said:

I have quit a lot of money put aside. I simply don't see any wheel worth my money. (I don't like any of them..)

I can sell my 18xl any moment and buy new wheel in 2500$ price. Yes i'm ready to pay that much for 1000Wh 40km/h wheel. IF i like it.

Maybe you should have bought the 18L.

48 lbs.

1036 Wh battery 

50 km/h, more headroom.

 

The 18XL is already a proven reliable wheel.

You can save your money.

 

[Funky]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Maybe you should have bought the 18L.

48 lbs.

1036 Wh battery 

50 km/h, more headroom.

 

The 18XL is already a proven reliable wheel.

You can save your money.

 

Yeah when i was buying my 18xl. I originally wanted 18l, but it wasn't in stock. And price difference where 200$ at that time 18l vs 18xl.

And 3kg difference wasn't worth it, so figured ill get 18xl with bigger battery. But now after some years of riding. I simply want something lighter.. But same time actually good wheel.

I literally charge mine once per 2 weeks now. When only riding job/home. Meaning i don't need range at all. But same time i would want a pretty fast/powerful EUC. (Sad that they don't make small battery, but powerful wheels.)

At least now i know what i want/need. So here for future releases. Maybe someday I'll get want i want.  

[mhpr262]

On 7/25/2023 at 7:57 AM, MadVlad said:

maybe the V10 but that trolley handle turned me off from it.

Yeah the trolley handle looks like ass but the V10 is actually a dream to trolley around the grocery store with it.

[mrelwood]

21 hours ago, techyiam said:

No one will be able to help him atm.

That is true. Still, suggesting something that is the polar opposite of what he explicitly wants/needs is quite pointless. Like suggesting staying home instead.

21 hours ago, techyiam said:

The culprit lies with the buyer.

It boils down to being @Funky simply is not ready to buy a new wheel yet.

Oh, he’s been ready for a long time. So have I.

 There’s nothing wrong with the buyer if the manufacturers don’t respond to the customers’ needs.

 Last year the S18 and V11 were the most used wheels on EUCw. Both launched in 2020. And IIRC, V8F was not all that far behind in the charts. This year manufacturers have only launched or announced wheels that weigh 60-80% more and are 80% faster than the S18. How’s that for market recognition?

[Funky]

32 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

This year manufacturers have only launched or announced wheels that weigh 60-80% more and are 80% faster than the S18. How’s that for market recognition?

More like past 2-3 years... But whos counting. 

If this continues and nothing "good" will be released next 2-3 years. (Aka powerful enough wheel with small battery and weight under 20kg.)

My next EUC will have 2 wheels.. And will cost only 800$. Extra bonus - no chance of getting a cutout and no need for gear at all. (Yes - i will not need to wear my wrist guards anymore.) Sure size will be somewhat bigger, but i never really cared about size. (That's what she said.)

Doh i still have hope for lightweight release in next years to come. If manufacturers don't become fully $greedy$ Mac-Ducktards.

Edited July 29, 2023 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

51 minutes ago, Funky said:

Aka powerful enough wheel with small battery and weight under 20kg.

The difficulty the manufactures have atm is its physically impossible for the price required with the current technology. Seems we are pretty much at the limit with the current battery tech available to us. Your wheel will come in due course, its just the battery advancements has been slower than originally hoped. I was predicting in 2021 solid state would be starting to come in by now but it looks like its not likely till 2027. When that happens and its available for us all the wheels will be great and you will love what will be possible, until then we either have to wait or make do.

Part of the delay will be companies needing to recoup the research and development of the current tech, but also I believe solid state is suffering set backs in development to full scale production too.

I have been waiting 2 years for my next wheel, but everything released so far just hasn't been good enough yet. Too many compromises for me (for the money asked).

One of these days a new wheel will be released that doesn't have some stupid design choices.  It just feels like everything so far released has too many stupid issues. 

 

[MadVlad]

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 There’s nothing wrong with the buyer if the manufacturers don’t respond to the customers’ needs.

 Last year the S18 and V11 were the most used wheels on EUCw. Both launched in 2020. And IIRC, V8F was not all that far behind in the charts. This year manufacturers have only launched or announced wheels that weigh 60-80% more and are 80% faster than the S18. How’s that for market recognition?

Bingo! Both of those wheels were on the right track in their own ways, I myself am considering an S18 if the upcoming Inmotion wheel is over 60 pounds. I had high hopes for Tesla V4, not sure how they managed to make it as heavy as it is, but at that point might as well get the "next size up". At some point you have to re-evaluate things, I mean come on, a Surron is around 100 pounds, a Talaria Sting R is something like 120.

THIS weighs as much as some of the latest EUCs, WITH two wheels and two tires, disk brakes, a large frame/swingarm, AND a long front fork.

Edited July 30, 2023 by MadVlad

[Funky]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

The difficulty the manufactures have atm is its physically impossible for the price required with the current technology. Seems we are pretty much at the limit with the current battery tech available to us.

All wheels that have been released before 2020.............. I'm not asking for 20kg wheel that goes 100km/h and has 100km range.

I want a wheel that can go about ~40km/h speed (top free spin speed can be 50km/h) and for range about 40km.. (Personally would be happy with 15km range.) You wanna tell me they can't make that under 20kg? Like come on.. S18 weights 22kg with suspension and has real 18x3" tire. 18xl weighs 26kg and has 1554Wh battery pack - can go 50km/h speed.

Some begode MSP or what ever it was named has also real 18x3" tire 1500Wh battery and weighs ~23kg. 23KG!!!!! WTF!!!! Oh and it can go easily 60km/h speeds.. (But that mostly begode - unsafe speeds)

 

Stop telling it's "impossible". IT ALREADY has been done. (And it can easily be done again..) Manufacturers have had more than 3-4 years to change something around. Make batteries size smaller or motor smaller - to gain more performance or save more weight.

Manufacturers simply are becoming LAZY. Adding more batteries for more range. Bigger motors for more speed. Big Woof.. Everyone can do that. Now making something small as possible and powerful as possible - NOW that would be amazing.. Also for profitability of big wheels are way, way bigger than some smaller wheels.. Sell one big turd for 3000-4000$ vs sell 10 small turds = same amount of $$$ made.

They need to use quick discharge cell for small battery pack and have amazing powerful wheel, only drawback would be it's range.. People who have ~10km daily commute it would be perfect wheel. They could still go pretty fast. But save weight in battery size. Same for price smaller battery pack - cheaper wheel. I already have said before i don't really care how much it cost. 2000$ vs 3000$ i don't care. I'm not buying wheel every year. I can throw down bit more $$$ for actually good product.

 

Sorry about rant... I simply hate the idea of lightweight market being ignored for years!

Edited July 29, 2023 by Funky

[slippyfeet]

The problem is that the 18XL outlasted everything that came out in its conception year, as well as every KS wheel that succeeded it 

[The Brahan Seer]

@Funky Sounds like  the Begode MCM5 V2 it pretty much fits what you are looking for or the A2. Sorry I thought you were after a wheel thats under 25Kg's and has the power and range of say a master.  

Edited July 30, 2023 by The Brahan Seer

[varamontelo]

manufacturers could further reduce the weight, the batteries, the motor. The contraption would be fine in flat town but couldn't take a 100kg rider up a small hill or on a windy and rainy day with a backpack. He would never be sure of the autonomy to return home. Performances would not exist for group travel in the countryside. It would be the euc in the buses and the metro. A new fashion would replace the ladies' handbag, we would see big wheelers with a helmet in one hand and a pretty roullete in the other hand. The worker in a suit in Paris is already ridiculous with his scooter folded on the train while looking at his laptop and briefcase.

[techyiam]

21 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

@Funky Sounds like  the Begode MCM5 V2 it pretty much fits what you are looking for or the A2. Sorry I thought you were after a wheel thats under 25Kg's and has the power and range of say a master.  

@Funky has told us that he weighs about 280 lbs. 

In terms of new wheels (not old stock) that are currently available for sale, there are only three electric wheels that have a rated maximum load of 280 lbs or more, and weighs less than 56 lbs:

(1) Kingsong 18XL (L)

(2) Kingsong 16X

(3) Begode T3

He did his homework. He already has the best wheel. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by techyiam

[Freeforester]

48 minutes ago, varamontelo said:

manufacturers could further reduce the weight, the batteries, the motor. The contraption would be fine in flat town but couldn't take a 100kg rider up a small hill or on a windy and rainy day with a backpack. He would never be sure of the autonomy to return home. Performances would not exist for group travel in the countryside. It would be the euc in the buses and the metro. A new fashion would replace the ladies' handbag, we would see big wheelers with a helmet in one hand and a pretty roullete in the other hand. The worker in a suit in Paris is already ridiculous with his scooter folded on the train while looking at his laptop and briefcase.

Surprised that the train workers haven’t gone on strike and er, burned a few trains etc in protest to this dangerous practice of allowing micro EV’s aboard their workplace!

[varamontelo]

yes it is a possibility.

[Funky]

33 minutes ago, Freeforester said:

Surprised that the train workers haven’t gone on strike and er, burned a few trains etc in protest to this dangerous practice of allowing micro EV’s aboard their workplace!

Have seen many scooters also on my trains. I'm also riding train daily.. Because my work are next city and only paths connected to next city that are 20km away are highway and railway. Even if i could ride all the way to work. I still would choose train or bus in middle of my ride. I would not wanna ride EUC everyday for ~25km. (Rain, winter, etc..)

Train + 5km travel with EUC are much better. (In my mind..) Also my train station are right next to my house.  1km till train station +4km next city. Slow ride by lakeside. (Slow ride, because i'm not gearing up for ~4km travel.) Leaving home/work 5 mins faster and riding very slowly to train.. It takes me 5 mins to travel the 4km distance at running speed.

 

And that's why im looking for something very light. But same time good enough performance. Range can be 10km. Speed 35km/h. Easily to carry it around.

Edited July 30, 2023 by Funky

[Funky]

1 hour ago, The Brahan Seer said:

@Funky Sounds like  the Begode MCM5 V2 it pretty much fits what you are looking for or the A2. Sorry I thought you were after a wheel thats under 25Kg's and has the power and range of say a master.  

I did say i want big enough wheel diameter. 16x3" or 18x3". None of released (now in market) ticks my need/want boxes.

I liked A2 "kinda", but it's side panels are too flimsy. And it's to weak for being 19kg weight. It's the same Mten4 motor. 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

2 hours ago, Funky said:

I did say i want big enough wheel diameter. 16x3" or 18x3".

I'm guessing you want an S18 equivalent with more battery so it has better power in which case my comment stands, you can't make an S18 with more battery to give you the power required for under 23Kg atm. The V12 has the power, and rigidity required at 29Kg? if you want it lighter then the materials required would make it too expensive hence why you need to wait for battery tech to improve to give the lightness and rigidity you require in a wheel.

 

[techyiam]

BMW used real structural plastics in their jacks and jacking points in their cars. Their structural plastics are strong and tough.

In the meantime, the plastics used in the outer or inner shells in my T3 seems like they used plastics that are used to make toys.

New wheels now are better built. It heavier but they are stronger and tougher.

I certainly don't long for the older era, but then again, I don't have to carry my wheels up and down three flights of stairs.

 

[Funky]

3 hours ago, The Brahan Seer said:

I'm guessing you want an S18 equivalent with more battery.

 

Less battery.

Actually S18 would been perfect, if not for it's suspension and open design. Remove suspension and my guess it would be right on mark 20kg. More or less a KS16S with 18x3" tire. And updated hollow bore motor. <3

That updated motor alone would make me look at it, if i had to choose any of wheels in the market right now. At least when suspension breaks in future - i can simply remove it or weld it together.  Making it non-suspension wheel.  

Edited July 30, 2023 by Funky

[The Brahan Seer]

44 minutes ago, Funky said:

Less battery.

Starts being dangerous. I've already experienced how easy it is to overlean due to the 3p configuration in its current form. I see it now as a 20Mph (32kph) wheel. Especially below 65% battery which means it has a workable range of 16-17 miles (26Kms). Which actually works for your requirements. Using molicels and the new hollow bore at 23Kg it might actually be a very valid choice for you. You could remove the plastic and add a 3d printed version someone on here has produced that looks very neat.  

The wheel is a pain to work on in some ways but only slightly worse than some others mainly due to the amount and different small screws and such like but its not impossible just annoying (to me).

I appreciate you just want one of the manufacturers to update there current wheels in this category and produce a better wheel all round, which isn't too much to ask. As the rules become more defined to what we will legally be able to ride we will all probably have to downsize anyway. So your wish will likely come true sooner rather than later.

[Funky]

40 minutes ago, The Brahan Seer said:

Starts being dangerous. I've already experienced how easy it is to overlean due to the 3p configuration in its current form. I see it now as a 20Mph (32kph) wheel. Especially below 65% battery which means it has a workable range of 16-17 miles (26Kms). Which actually works for your requirements. Using molicels and the new hollow bore at 23Kg it might actually be a very valid choice for you. You could remove the plastic and add a 3d printed version someone on here has produced that looks very neat.  

The wheel is a pain to work on in some ways but only slightly worse than some others mainly due to the amount and different small screws and such like but its not impossible just annoying (to me).

I appreciate you just want one of the manufacturers to update there current wheels in this category and produce a better wheel all round, which isn't too much to ask. As the rules become more defined to what we will legally be able to ride we will all probably have to downsize anyway. So your wish will likely come true sooner rather than later.

Yeah i get that lower "P" battery config - less power. But can't they simply use high discharge cells at lower "P" config? Like 2p high discharge will have same amount of power the 4p? Or are we talking about the 2p vs 4p total voltage together..? Don't really know how it works, but i get general idea... If it's the voltage. Then yeah, 2p will have half of 4p power. Anyways they can simply build 6p battery that has "only" 600-800Wh overall, no? 2 packs each pack having around 3p ~400Wh. Together it would be 6p 800Wh - you still will have power, but you will lose range.

Still if people don't accelerate very fast and don't do superman leans trying to go from 0 to 30mph in 3 seconds. I don't see any problem there. Sure i can overlean my 6p 18xl at any given charge state, if i try to do superman lean.. But same time if i don't do those. I have zero problem riding at 100% charge or even at 40% charge.

And especially when riding home/job i'm mostly going at running speeds, because of not having gear on. I bet i could be fine even with 2p config. Simply for fact i'm not accelerating fast and going at running speeds. Start of ride or fast movement while in ride takes most out of the battery. Maintaining level riding speeds takes almost no power.

If people simply stop accelerating fast - all problems solved. Then again i was riding my bicycle to job/home for 8 years. So EUC that can easily without problem go at 25-35km/h are okay in my mind. Still faster than my ~20km/h bicycle speed.  

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Funky