Inmotion V14 Adventure: a new trail wheel from Inmotion

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

Or we could just all buy them from Jason since he had the fortitude to demand better for his customers....

      This is not a possibility for customers in other countries other then USA and maybe Canada, so it is a valid ask.

[Paul g]

1 hour ago, Vanturion said:

You would think, but I have to push back a little on this just for academic accuracy as I remember Pajda plotted the lifecycle of the 50S in his 5C test considering Samsung rated the 50S for 25A (5C) continuous discharge. IIRC it started to demonstrate an exponential decay somewhere around 250-300** cycles and he halted the test (**I'll update if he messages back).

That said, for anyone reading the 5C test has zero applicability to the Adventure or any other EUC on the market as none of them are operating at 134V * 100A = 13,400 Watts, especially continuously as Jason explained above - these tests are largely artificial comparisons that don't reflect real world use and conditions. In other words, pretty much battery nerd stuff.

What is somewhat more applicable are the discharge tests in the 1C/2C/3C discharge range where most performance wheels operate, and the value of these kinds of comparisons are basically only in the direct comparison to other cells since the concern is "did we spec the best cell for the application."

Happy to say Pajda generously shared his excel data with me and so I plotted the 1C discharge comparison:

TL;DR: 50S = slightly more better in this artificial lab test.

Some other thoughts and clarifications for battery nerds:

• Every 50 cycles Pajda ran a 0.2C nominal capacity test which doesn't stress/heat the batteries allowing them to cool, I removed these low stress capacity cycles from the dataset
• Interestingly you can see in the data how much more the 50E and 50G cells were affected by temperature/heating even at 1C in the capacity spikes (temporary capacity healing if you will) every 50 cycles
  • If you only look at the spikes for each cell (which are more relevant than the rest of the data as no one is continuously cycling, that is riding-charging-riding-charging without breaks) the capacity degradation is almost identical between all 3 cells with the 50S having the advantage in most of the cycles with the 50E/50G only gaining the advantage after ~800 cycles or so in these artificial tests.
• Some lingering battery nerd doubts I had was cleared up, the 50S looks like a great fit given the data on hand, particularly accounting for use in less temperate climates.

   Thanks for bringing more data to the table, @Vanturion

[mtl]

4 hours ago, bpong said:

50G, 50S, etc,... why is this left to a retailer to approach the manufacturer ?

It might be possible for other distributors to get the 50S's if they request them from Inmotion, although they would likely have to pay more for the wheels. Jason has said that eWheels is absorbing the cost difference, which according to his post looks like it could be on the order of $150 (USD) per wheel.

Edited October 1, 2023 by mtl

[Punxatawneyjoe]

1 hour ago, Paul g said:

      This is not a possibility for customers in other countries other then USA and maybe Canada, so it is a valid ask.

Good news, ewheels ships to other country's...

Shipping
We’ve worked hard to provide the most competitive shipping rates for our customers with FedEx.  Rates vary depending upon distance from our distribution center from Los Angeles, California & the shipping option you select at checkout.  Within 1 business day of your purchase, you will be provided with a tracking number for your package. Delivery times vary depending on the destination address, but are typically within 1-7 days. 

If you are importing an eWheel into another country, such as Canada, you may be charged sales taxes & other handling fees by the courier. It is the Customer’s responsibility to pay these import duties. Shipping times can also be increased if shipping outside the continental US.

 

I do realize it doesn't make much sense to import to some country's from us so i hope other dealers will offer this option free of charge as ewheels is doing.

[techyiam]

5 minutes ago, Punxatawneyjoe said:

If you are importing an eWheel into another country, such as Canada, you may be charged sales taxes & other handling fees by the courier. It is the Customer’s responsibility to pay these import duties. Shipping times can also be increased if shipping outside the continental US.

 

I am afraid you have interpreted the above incorrectly. It is to mean only Canada.

Quote

Contact: sales@eWheels.com Sorry, No International Shipping Outside USA/Canada

 

[RagingGrandpa]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:46 PM, Vanturion said:

 

Side note: M50LT looks ~10% better than Samsung based on above! 
(I think 2C aged capacity is most relevant for fast 4P EUCs.)
I'll have to start putting my mental aversion to LG in check. 

[Paul g]

   Exactly, is LG a trusted manufacturer of battery cells? 

[novazeus]

best i can surmise from the advertising, is the max load is 140kgs.

idk if that's the tire rating or some guess by inmotion to actual rider weight. 

jason spec's the wheel weight at 86 pounds, and the max load at 308, so that would put the tire rating at 394 pounds max, and the v13 inobby is 396 pounds max at max pressure. the tire looks like the v13 knobby just smaller. any sidewall photos of the tire with it's rating?

 

[Punxatawneyjoe]

same video with a little more water riding, looks impressive to me. I am very close to pulling the trigger, especially since ewheels will have an all black version.

From ewheels:

Is there the option to change out the orange panels for a different color?
Yes, we’ve negotiated an alternative panel scheme, likely to be black. Those will be available as spares/accessories.

[0000]

On 10/2/2023 at 8:59 AM, RagingGrandpa said:

(I think 2C aged capacity is most relevant for fast 4P EUCs.)
I'll have to start putting my mental aversion to LG in check. 

Agreeing with 2C for 4P. ^{also c3po}

Yeah, it definitely comes out ahead. Based on the data if you didn't care about charging a rate above 0.5C it makes sense to prefer this cell if given the option.

On 10/2/2023 at 9:46 AM, Paul g said:

Exactly, is LG a trusted manufacturer of battery cells? 

I think LG got a bad wrap in our industry particularly because of a failure in the implementation by Gotway/Begode several EUC manufacturers (the exact cause of which remains unknown today), not necessarily because LG failed to produce safe cells (of which they supply probably hundreds of millions or more per year). I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that any battery cells produced and sold to the public goes through, at the very least, a lot of internal testing to make sure the chemistry isn't creating a massive liability for the company. **But that doesn't preclude them from making mistakes or failing to accurately accounting for safe use in all conditions.

It's not like any company can't make mistakes, but let's put it this way - when you compare the reputation of LG side-by-side with Begode and compare their known track history, which company is more likely to have erred regarding fault for the fire-prone 900wh LG M50T packs? Well, I have my suspicions.

Edited October 3, 2023 by Vanturion
Eucner and Paul were on the money

[Eucner]

3 hours ago, Vanturion said:

It's not like any company can't make mistakes, but let's put it this way - when you compare the reputation of LG side-by-side with Begode and compare their known track history, which company is more likely to have erred regarding fault for the fire-prone 900wh LG M50T packs? Well, I have my suspicions.

Both are to blame. At least five Inmotion V11's with LG M50T cells have been burned.

[Rawnei]

Tire change looks pretty easy:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/3172780739683547/

[mrelwood]

7 hours ago, Eucner said:

Both are to blame. At least five Inmotion V11's with LG M50T cells have been burned.

IIRC, most of not all of them had shown clear signs of battery issues well before the fire, and the users had degraded to different tricks to get them charging anyway.

 Not that they should still burn though. Which is why the current firmware has a (very sensitive) battery issue recognition which kicks up the wheel to prevent charging and riding in case of a more serious potential issue.

[Paul g]

6 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Tire change looks pretty easy:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/3172780739683547/

    We would love to see this kind of content on some social media that does not exploit its users to such extent as FoeBook does 😁😁😜

[Paul g]

15 hours ago, Vanturion said:

Agreeing with 2C for 4P. ^{also c3po}

Yeah, it definitely comes out ahead. Based on the data if you didn't care about charging a rate above 0.5C it makes sense to prefer this cell if given the option.

I think LG got a bad wrap in our industry particularly because a failure in the implementation by Gotway/Begode (the exact cause of which remains unknown today), not necessarily because LG failed to produce safe cells (of which they supply probably hundreds of millions or more per year). I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that any battery cells produced and sold to the public goes through, at the very least, a lot of internal testing to make sure the chemistry isn't creating a massive liability for the company.

It's not like any company can't make mistakes, but let's put it this way - when you compare the reputation of LG side-by-side with Begode and compare their known track history, which company is more likely to have erred regarding fault for the fire-prone 900wh LG M50T packs? Well, I have my suspicions.

     The LG batteries contributed to entire car batches being recalled because of fire danger, it’s not an electric wheels only issue. So I am reticent whenever I hear of LG. 

[techyiam]

19 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Tire change looks pretty easy:

Some observations:

(1) On the surface, wheel removal and tire change on the Adventure looks to be straightforward, and requires minimal steps. The pedals don't need to be removed. There is no denial that the waterproof quick disconnect battery connectors is way cool. This can simplify servicing significantly.

However, there is a potential hiccup that can crop up. The need to remove 8 axle bolts that are tightened securely with thread locker. If one strips the head or if the bolt won't loosen, someone is going to have a bad day. How does one apply heat to those bolts prior to loosening? Soldering iron?

(2) The axle-slider joint is just a simple butt joint. The bolts will be subjected to not only tensile stresses, but rather all the impact stresses too.

(3) Motor wire harness coming out of the axle appears to be thick, protected and easy to work with during servicing. Very nice. This is a breath of fresh air.

(4) The rim looked wide. 

(5) Build quality looked good but it doesn't look superior. Depending on what I am looking for, the Patton, Extreme and Adventure will all be on the table for me. Each will have its strengths and weaknesses. A strong point for the Patton is that it has the FastAce suspension structs. I can ride the Patton out of the box, and not have to worry about the pin joints in the suspension linkage, nor the sliders not designed nor assembled correctly. Current EUC manufacturers have a tendency to come up short in suspension design and QC'ing.

(6) Crash protection wise, I am somewhat leery with the Adventure plastic side covers. The Extreme's power pad system may even offer better crash protection. The Patton looks to have stronger crash protection.

Edited October 4, 2023 by techyiam

[0000]

16 hours ago, Eucner said:

Both are to blame. At least five Inmotion V11's with LG M50T cells have been burned.

Yeah that's definitely true - I keep forgetting due to the skewing fire statistics as it's easiest to associate these problems with Begode from a certain bias. I'll edit that comment a bit not to add to the confusion.

If I can fix my mistake there, perhaps a better characterization of the situation is that the LG M50T batteries were not rigorously or sufficiently tested either at the cell level and/or in the assembled pack form (implementation) by any of the EUC manufacturers to account for the variety of factors that can contribute to rapid battery degradation which can and has eventuated in thermal runaway failures if the degraded packs are not identified and taken out of use (accounting for @mrelwood's accurate assessment of how riders sometimes try to continue to use packs that demonstrate failure such as not charging to the full 4.2V/cell).

To sum it up, you could say the fires with the LG M50T cells across multiple EUC manufacturers highlights how important qualifying cell selection (rather than relying upon battery specs or reputation) and accounting for worst case use conditions and specific implementation (pack assembly, continuous vs peak current limits, battery chemistry temperature tolerance, etc.) is in delivering these types of products that will remain safe throughout their full lifecycle in all kinds of conditions.

One consequence of that logic is without doing this kind of rigorous testing for qualifying new cells/chemistries, it makes sense from a risk management point of view to stick with cell chemistries that are already in use with a proven history.

But that said, with the implementation of smart BMS features such as the ability to track individual cell voltage, the risk of thermal runaway similar to the LG M50T is greatly mitigated as @mrelwood described. Also the separated packs such as with the Adventure here helps limit the financial hit too for any such replacements if the need arises.

Edited October 4, 2023 by Vanturion
added qualifying info. battery safety is complex.

[CrabChampion]

8 hours ago, Rawnei said:

Tire change looks pretty easy:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/inmotioneuc/permalink/3172780739683547/

Man, the tire change is exactly like all begode wheels after the master. Open design, super easy to work on. I welcome this design philosophy. I have no doubt that the v14 suspension will be better than the begode implementation

[CrabChampion]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

If one strips the head or if the bolt won't loosen, someone is going to have a bad day. How does one apply heat to those bolts prior to loosening? Soldering iron?

Usually soldering iron. I never had a begode design wheel with a seized axle bolt though. Nor a V13. So the "begode" design combined with the v14 I dont think will be much of an issue.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

The rim looked wide. 

It should be a c40 motor type rim. I love the wider rims on the recent begode wheels so hopefully the v14 has similar tire profiles

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Build quality looked good but it doesn't look superior. Depending on what I am looking for, the Patton, Extreme and Adventure will all be on the table for me. They will have strengths and weaknesses. A strong point for the Patton is that it has the FastAce suspension structs. I can ride the Patton out of the box, and not have to worry about the pin joints in the suspension linkage, nor the sliders not designed nor assembled correctly

Funnily enough looking at that tire change video, its near identical to the begode designs from the master onwards. So comparing the "quality" between inmotion, a highly praised manufacturer for their build quality, compared to the "quality" of begode, a company notoriously known for bad build quality leaves us in a weird spot.

Fastace is actually not a high end suspension manufacturer. On surrons the fastace front fork is one of the first things that surron owners ditch. Its not a great suspension. Its nice that the fastace suspension struts are a single piece construction, but you still face issues with those hydraulic shocks like any other suspension system. My shop has seen 3 leaky shocks that were unserviceable and required full replacement. Each replacement set is a full $500 CAD due to the shocks being proprietary. Even the videos on the internet disassembling the shocks, identifying the leaking issue and reassembling didnt solve the issue. I saw a fastace shock opened up, the seals were not warped, perfectly clean. Had no idea why the shock was leaking oil. Leaperkim recommended full replacement anyways. A leaky patton/sherman-s shock seems like a pain in the ass to me vs replacing a shock on an extreme for less than $100 and the linkages are less than $40 from begode. Not to mention you have aftermarket options with the linkage design. Leaperkim, you're stuck with their proprietary system

Edited October 3, 2023 by Cobaltsaber

[techyiam]

On 10/3/2023 at 2:36 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

Man, the tire change is exactly like all begode wheels after the master. Open design, super easy to work on. I welcome this design philosophy. I have no doubt that the v14 suspension will be better than the begode implementation

After all, it is essentially a loosely copy of the Master's modular design and layout. However, having said that, Inmotion did improve things.

(1) The pedal doesn't need to be removed.

(2) With quick battery pack quick disconnect connectors, one can simply remove the battery pack completely, and not partial dissassembled and left attached.

(3) There isn't a thin spacer between axle and the slider mount. Less hassle and tedious work putting it back on reassembly.

(4) The motor cable is longer and thus offers more room to work with in getting the tire off and on.

On 10/3/2023 at 2:51 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

Usually soldering iron. I never had a begode design wheel with a seized axle bolt though. Nor a V13. So the "begode" design combined with the v14 I dont think will be much of an issue.

That's good hear. Wheel removal on the Adventure sounds simple enough then.

On 10/3/2023 at 2:51 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

Funnily enough looking at that tire change video, its near identical to the begode designs from the master onwards. So comparing the "quality" between inmotion, a highly praised manufacturer for their build quality, compared to the "quality" of begode, a company notoriously known for bad build quality leaves us in a weird spot.

I have not had a chance to work on the Extreme yet, but just a brief in person look gives me a very positive first impression. My gut feeling is that the Extreme build quality is competitive with the other wheels for the most parts. It does seem Begode have come a long way. The Extreme should have excellent waterproofing for riding in the rain, plus smart BMS. If one was to factored in the price, it's a very competitive wheel in its class. The last hurdle for Begode is the suspension linkage, and then the slider.

On 10/3/2023 at 2:51 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

Fastace is actually not a high end suspension manufacturer. On surrons the fastace front fork is one of the first things that surron owners ditch. Its not a great suspension. Its nice that the fastace suspension struts are a single piece construction, but you still face issues with those hydraulic shocks like any other suspension system.

True that, in the mtb market. It is another Chinese No Name brand which competes at the bottom rung. But the thing is in the EUC world, the suspension parts is at the DIY backyard homemade level. Look at the S20 slider, Begode air shocks since the Hero, Begode linkage and slider. So FastAce is considered better, more acceptable.

The single piece construction is why I am attracted to the Sherman S and Patton. Then there is less for the EUC manufacturers to screw up during design and production. FactAce design and production quality is simply higher.

I looked at the S22. The design of the original slider is worse than some suspension designs used in toys. The QC on the assembly of the linkage is still a lot to be desired. Whereas, in the Patton, it's all in the suspension strut. FastAce handles all the suspension stuff. To me, this is a good thing.

 

On 10/3/2023 at 2:51 PM, Cobaltsaber said:

My shop has seen 3 leaky shocks that were unserviceable and required full replacement. Each replacement set is a full $500 CAD due to the shocks being proprietary. Even the videos on the internet disassembling the shocks, identifying the leaking issue and reassembling didnt solve the issue. I saw a fastace shock opened up, the seals were not warped, perfectly clean. Had no idea why the shock was leaking oil. Leaperkim recommended full replacement anyways. A leaky patton/sherman-s shock seems like a pain in the ass to me vs replacing a shock on an extreme for less than $100 and the linkages are less than $40 from begode. Not to mention you have aftermarket options with the linkage design. Leaperkim, you're stuck with their proprietary system

Thank you for sharing this information.

I would argue that, it could be an acceptable failure rate, and reasonable cost of warranty coverage.

But of course it depends on the actual numbers.

If I am not mistaken, the Sherman S and the Patton sold well. What was the failure rate?

On the other hand, if we look at the S22 sliders, and the Master and derivatives linkage and sliders, and air shock, what were their failure rates? Not only were there plenty of QC issues, but there were serious design flaws as well. Subsequently, driving demand for third parties to come up with aftermarket S22 roller sliders, and linkages for Begode suspension wheels. All the while most of these owners have to put with the inconvenience, headache, and extra costs and their time. The S22 slider was a colossal design defect, so basically every unit needed to be replaced. Additionally, wasn't basically all Begode air shocks need to be replaced. It almost seemed like Begode air shock and linkage included with a new unit act only as a place holder for the aftermarket parts that the owners would need to replace in taking ownership.  

 

Edited October 5, 2023 by techyiam

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, Cobaltsaber said:

Fastace is actually not a high end suspension manufacturer. On surrons the fastace front fork is one of the first things that surron owners ditch. Its not a great suspension. Its nice that the fastace suspension struts are a single piece construction, but you still face issues with those hydraulic shocks like any other suspension system. My shop has seen 3 leaky shocks that were unserviceable and required full replacement. Each replacement set is a full $500 CAD due to the shocks being proprietary. Even the videos on the internet disassembling the shocks, identifying the leaking issue and reassembling didnt solve the issue. I saw a fastace shock opened up, the seals were not warped, perfectly clean. Had no idea why the shock was leaking oil. Leaperkim recommended full replacement anyways. A leaky patton/sherman-s shock seems like a pain in the ass to me vs replacing a shock on an extreme for less than $100 and the linkages are less than $40 from begode. Not to mention you have aftermarket options with the linkage design. Leaperkim, you're stuck with their proprietary system

Great post. And as you say, FastAce are effectively no-name in the suspension world. On the face of it I really like the LK approach with the MTB fork style suspension but the Begode option (for example) whilst archaic is at least a bit more friendly when it comes to servicing. The linkages will never wear anyway, the flanged pivot bushings can be bought anywhere for just a few dollars, the shock is easily sourced (and theres lots of options) and so that just leaves the stanchions and slider bushings. I'm not convinced the bushings will be easy to source and/or replace so there is that issue. The stanchions will also be proprietary and their crappy dry lube setup means I don't believe the (also no doubt crappy) chrome coating will last long. So not without issues either but I suspect it may be cheaper to deal with when the time comes. In fact I would like to know how much a pair of Begode stanchions would cost but I doubt it would be $500 CAD....

Edit: I can see erides list the slider bushings for the Master at £20 a set. So they must be user-replaceable. So that just leaves the stanchions. 

Edited October 3, 2023 by Planemo

[Planemo]

7 minutes ago, techyiam said:

It almost seemed like Begode air shock and linkage included with a new unit act only as a place holder for the aftermarket parts that the owners would need to replace in taking ownership.  

Deffo re the airshocks, they are shocking (no pun) and need to go straight in the bin. But for the EX30 at least, IMO the linkages are fine. My 200mm DNM coil (750lb) is working really well with the otherwise stock setup. But I'm not a jumper or hard off-roader. Lord knows who would want to jump or do heavy off-road on an EX30 though....!

[CrabChampion]

36 minutes ago, Planemo said:

The stanchions will also be proprietary and their crappy dry lube setup means I don't believe the (also no doubt crappy) chrome coating will last long. So not without issues either but I suspect it may be cheaper to deal with when the time comes

which now brings in the v14. If their "motorcycle grade" stanchions are the real deal, then we really have a winner. Possibly better than the extreme in almost every way on paper. Then comes the ride feel/firmware. We know how a tire change goes on the v14, now I want to see that suspension system in depth

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

The stanchions will also be proprietary and their crappy dry lube setup means I don't believe the (also no doubt crappy) chrome coating will last long.

I highly doubt the Begode stanchions are precision pieces. Aren't they simply stainless steel tubings?

 

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

My 200mm DNM coil (750lb) is working really well with the otherwise stock setup. But I'm not a jumper or hard off-roader.

Thanks. Good to know. I only had a brief moment on an EX30, and it didn't cross my mind that it need to be replaced immediately. Whereas, I have to address my S22 suspension slider immediately because they suck so bad. But then I am in no hurry since I have my Abrams, and the S22 is just a project.

[techyiam]

34 minutes ago, Cobaltsaber said:

which now brings in the v14. If their "motorcycle grade" stanchions are the real deal, then we really have a winner. Possibly better than the extreme in almost every way on paper. Then comes the ride feel/firmware. We know how a tire change goes on the v14, now I want to see that suspension system in depth

It does seemed like Inmotion went out of its way to correct known issues with current suspension designs. However, Inmotion have never done a linkage suspension design before. And the suspension travel is shorter than its competitors.

Although, we need to wait for a V14 and Extreme teardown to be certain, so far I am not seeing any indication that the chassis design of the V14 being superior over the Extreme. On paper, the V14 looks to be a really tough competitor, but the proof will be in the pudding. 

Since you are a shop, will you be getting a demo wheel from Inmotion? We are in October already. So it got to be this month, or early November?

In any case, I am liking Patton, and Extreme so far. Comes early next year, there will be the V14 to join the fray.