mrelwood Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 38 minutes ago, Cerbera said: This is shit information ! Far too general. I wonder if there are fireman forums where this is properly discussed, and people can try and find out why this fire happened. Was the user trying to fire 20 amps up its arse ? Was it a reconditioned battery pack, was it previously balanced, had the machine been in crash, or exposed to water, what cells were they, what was the configuration of them, and how old were they etc etc. Very difficult to learn from any of these fires without that sort of information - TBH I suspect the fire brigade is not asking these questions, and if they are, they don't seem to be publishing the answers anywhere public ! I agree. Doesn’t seem useful to cause a generic Li-ion fear in citizens. Instead, it would be very useful to explain how cheap, badly maintained and strangely behaving batteries are the ones to be afraid of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Cerbera said: Far too alarmist and general. Might need to consider how knowledgeable are the readership. It was a BBC report to general public. The important information for public was not charging unattended, not positioning at escape routes, do not overcharge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeremySPFF Posted March 10, 2023 Share Posted March 10, 2023 14 hours ago, mrelwood said: Doesn’t seem useful to cause a generic Li-ion fear in citizens It does if your business is based off oil and gas. There is and has been a ton of FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) spread by people who are losing billions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 15, 2023 Share Posted March 15, 2023 Queens e-Bike shop fire believed to have been sparked by lithium-ion battery FOX 5 New York 2,670Views Mar 14, 2023 A fire inside of a Queens e-bike shop is believed to have been sparked by a lithium-ion battery, in yet another example of fires sparked by lithium-ion batteries that have caused several deaths and dozens of injuries in New York City in the last few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 Crazy Russians 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aztek Posted March 18, 2023 Share Posted March 18, 2023 A dude, actually a physician, told me once how he decided and drilled a hole in a bulging battery to "decompress" it, with similar result People are truly unaware what the batteries are. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Robse Posted March 18, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted March 18, 2023 3 hours ago, Paul A said: Crazy Russians Crazy? Indeeeeed ! No respect for fingers eyes or anything, just plain crazy, and funny :-) - makes me think of Beavis and Butthead 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 Deadly Bronx fire caused by lithium ion battery, FDNY says 434 views · 1 hour ago March 19, 2023 https://abc7ny.com/nyc-bronx-fire-lithium-ion-battery/12975482/ Deadly Bronx fire caused by lithium ion battery, FDNY says ALLERTON, The Bronx (WABC) -- A deadly fire in the Bronx was caused by a lithium-ion battery, the FDNY says. The fire broke out around 4 p.m. Saturday on Olinville Avenue in Allerton. First responders rushed a 64-year-old man t the hospital, but it was too late. So far this year, lithium-ion batteries have caused at least 33 fires in New York City. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKW Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 Man, I can't watch this thread. Doom and gloom. I don't see a future where they are going to get rid of these batteries anytime soon. Perhaps better safety measures or technology though. My lease in Manhattan apartment added a last page this year that makes you sign that if you have an ebike you cannot store it inside or you could get your lease forfeited. Since I do deliveries in NYC I've noticed an increase of precaution in the city from reception and building policies all over the city. Food delivery, ebikes and the like, are part of NYC's blood, and I do not see them doing away with ebike any time soon. They leave it up to the building to make those policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeforester Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 30 minutes ago, BKW said: Man, I can't watch this thread. Doom and gloom. I don't see a future where they are going to get rid of these batteries anytime soon. Perhaps better safety measures or technology though. My lease in Manhattan apartment added a last page this year that makes you sign that if you have an ebike you cannot store it inside or you could get your lease forfeited. Since I do deliveries in NYC I've noticed an increase of precaution in the city from reception and building policies all over the city. Food delivery, ebikes and the like, are part of NYC's blood, and I do not see them doing away with ebike any time soon. They leave it up to the building to make those policies. Just around a corner… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uras Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) I think there are cars being rolled out, or plan to be rolled out, with salt batteries. When you consider petrol and how volatile that is; we've been living with that for a long time now, driving around with a big tank of it in dangerous situations etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwnylfUYPQ Edited March 19, 2023 by Uras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robse Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 25 minutes ago, Uras said: I think there are cars being rolled out, or plan to be rolled out, with salt batteries. When you consider petrol and how volatile that is; we've been living with that for a long time now, driving around with a big tank of it in dangerous situations etc. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwnylfUYPQ The video about salt batteries contains, as far as I can see, no scientific evidence - and the difference between a fire in lithium batteries and gasoline is that the fire in gasoline can be extinguished, the other cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uras Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Robse said: The video about salt batteries contains, as far as I can see, no scientific evidence - and the difference between a fire in lithium batteries and gasoline is that the fire in gasoline can be extinguished, the other cannot. that's one video - there's a plethora of information on it out there, including recent breakthroughs in China, Australia and the US. BYD - the largest electric car manufacturer in the world is releasing a model sometime this year. Edited March 19, 2023 by Uras Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robse Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 7 minutes ago, Uras said: that's one video - there's a plethora of information on it out there. It is happening. Re the science - it's actually centuries old technology. It would be really nice with a new and safer technology, for example I still don't have an electric car because the range is so bad and the charging time is too long and it's too much of a hassle to find places to charge. There has been a lot of progress talk regarding new technologies in the last 10 years, but nothing has really happened anyway - why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 Smoke inhalation is the likely killer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uras Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Robse said: There has been a lot of progress talk regarding new technologies in the last 10 years, but nothing has really happened anyway - why? I see it happening all the time. Here in Australia nothing has happened until recently because of our ev hating, fossil fuel loving previous government. However the rest of the world is marching forward, despite what any of us think. Consider the internal combustion engine - in reality nothing major has changed in that technology for a hundred years or more? Most of what has changed is in the management system, fueling etc - computer tech. EV in comparison is flying ahead - the time line is much more compressed. Even lithium battery chemistry - how many changes has that gone through? And prior to lithium, not that long ago, was nicad etc. The first 18650 cells were how many mah? They grew to 4000. 21700's are now 5000 and still growing, along with higher discharge etc. Blade battery, charge cycles, temperature tolerance, charging speed, battery chemistry - all these things are evolving. Edited March 19, 2023 by Uras 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sbb Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 Well, the fire hazard aspect has finally reached AvE. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 More or less how i see is.. The battery itself isn't the problem. Problem is that packs are built with many cells... All these fires, etc. Start only with packs. One/Two batteries alone don't start burning/smoking. Why battery manufactures can't build "comically" one big cell. One big cell that would power our PEV's. Regular cell but 100x times bigger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Funky said: Why battery manufactures can't build "comically" one big cell. One big cell that would power our PEV's. Regular cell but 100x times bigger. That is an interesting thought. I don’t know much at all about the subject, but it would seem that: 1) If a ”comically“ large single battery was a viable solution, the e-car industry with it’s astoundingly high budgets would’ve done something like that already. 2) If the Li-ion battery tech relies on a chemical reaction between the components, simply making them bigger wouldn’t increase the rate of the reaction. 100 iron bolts in a swimming pool don’t rust any faster than a single bolt in a cup of water. Hence, 4.2V may be the maximum voltage that a single cell can provide, no matter how big it was. 3) That would leave us with a different battery technology altogether. But we all know that the energy density per dollar of a Li-ion battery can’t currently be beat. “Waiting on the world to change”, said an award winning thinker John Mayer. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasku Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 10 minutes ago, mrelwood said: But we all know that the energy density per dollar of a Li-ion battery can’t currently be beat. Well there are some but they currently still come with cost of being heavy. They say they can make it less heavy and even more dense in future line-ups. Guess we will see if this will change the game for safer mobility. Sodium ion does not cause fires when damaged and should manage cold conditions better. Available this year 2023. "Sodium-ion vs lithium ion Kwh cost"Compared to the cost of Li-ion batteries, the cost of Na-ion batteries is significantly lower. The cost of Na-ion batteries is approximately $40 per kWh, while the cost of Li-ion batteries is approximately $137 per kWh. (some sources can put sodium-ion as high as 77$, and I gues that is the new line-up price.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Funky said: Why battery manufactures can't build "comically" one big cell. The ISS uses big lithium batteries. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/astronauts-complete-4-years-of-power-upgrades-for-international-space-station February 1, 2021 Astronauts complete 4 years of power upgrades for International Space Station What kind of batteries are used in the ISS? The space station is now equipped with 24 lithium-ion batteries to store power collected by the solar panels. The big, boxy batteries, surpassing 400 pounds (180 kilograms) each, provide electricity for the orbiting lab when it's on the night side of Earth.1 Feb 2021 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasku Posted March 19, 2023 Share Posted March 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Funky said: More or less how i see is.. The battery itself isn't the problem. Problem is that packs are built with many cells... They only started making "pouch" batterys for mobile phones after it kinda was forced as safety reasons. The industry prolly will take most cost efficient ways to provide product, as long as it is not regulated toward safety. The cause of fires on phones have gone down in big way over the years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 20, 2023 Share Posted March 20, 2023 https://bronx.news12.com/fdny-1-killed-in-allerton-apartment-building-fire-caused-by-lithium-ion-battery March 20, 2023 FDNY: 1 killed in Allerton apartment building fire caused by lithium-ion battery The FDNY says a man in an Allerton apartment building was killed Saturday in a fire sparked by a lithium-ion battery. The fatal fire started on the top floor of a six-story apartment on Olinville Avenue at around 4 p.m. Officials say the blaze, which took 40 minutes to get under control, was caused by an e-bike battery. First responders rescued a 64-year-old tenant, who was pronounced dead after being rushed to the hospital. Neighbors described the victim as a kind and quiet individual. They believe his two pet cats also died in the flames. Investigators say the batteries have caused at least 33 fires in the five boroughs this year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 FDNY commissioner discusses plan to combat lithium-ion battery fires FOX 5 New York Mar 21, 2023 There is growing concern regarding lithium-ion battery fires in New York City. Mayor Eric Adams has signed new law to try to prevent those fires. FDNY Commissioner Laura Kavanagh joined Good Day New York to talk more about it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbera Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 (edited) And some further information on what the hell UL marking might be ! Some confusion remains after watching it, not least whether any of our devices meet any of these recommendations / standards ! Edited March 22, 2023 by Cerbera 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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