the end is near

[Cerbera]

And again...

Emphasis seems to be on not using 'illegal batteries' but nobody ever specifies what a legal battery is ! Would our typical kinds of batteries be legal or not ? Even if the cells themselves were certified who is checking how these things are built and assembled into packs, which can make all the difference between them being dangerous or not ?

Also very surprised to see these guys dumping water on a lithium fire in the first instance. Isn't that as good as useless unless you can completely submerge the device and keep it that way? I wonder why they didn't use the special foam... I would have thought the single most useful thing they could do is have one or more fire trucks in every precinct / district specially equipped for lithium fires...

If there is one silver lining to all this it is surely that will only increase the drive and budget being put into the next battery tech, but like so many things in life, this is gonna get a lot worse before it gets better...

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by Cerbera

[Paul A]

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

nobody ever specifies what a legal battery is

 

2 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I wonder why they didn't use the special foam...

 

Enable subtitles and watch the video again. 

The background noise makes it difficult to hear the explanations clearly.

[Tawpie]

kinda odd the front tire didn't burn up. (yeah, yeah, it's a prop and the mayor sort of might have said that, and it's there to highlight a point and all that, but especially since the fire is still burning—they already have determined the cause? I guess "hats off to FDNY" for the exceptionally rapid investigation)

I'm not saying the bike didn't start the fire cuz I have no idea. I just distrust the bandwagon in general.

Never mind, old coot spouting off without any real facts at all, my sincere apologies to the Mayor, Commish and FDNY. There's video showing a fire starting in what looks like a scooter.

Next time, I'll 🤐

Edited March 6, 2023 by Tawpie

[Paul A]

29 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

since the fire is still burning—they already have determined the cause?

 

Perhaps there might be eyewitness testimony of the ebike starting the fire.

Security cam footage featured in the news report might be from the supermarket rear itself.

 

 

[Paul A]

Security cam footage of the Bronx, NYC, supermarket fire, 26 seconds.

 

 

[sbb]

Some context -

5 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I wonder why they didn't use the special foam...

So, there is no such thing.  Engines are preconfigured for what the majority of fires will be. And that'd be class A, if they even run a foam setup at all which most engines don't. You want fancy foam, you pull a truck from the airport. And in the hour it takes them to get to you, it'd still be the wrong stuff for a LiPo.

 

5 hours ago, Cerbera said:

I would have thought the single most useful thing they could do is have one or more fire trucks in every precinct / district specially equipped for lithium fires...

An engine literally costs upwards of a million dollars and takes the better part of a year to build.

If your district is rich, you buy a new truck every 10 years. If not rich, you buy one every 20 years. If poor, the rich places will sell you their 10 year old engines, and you buy a 10 year old engine every 30 years.  I would note at this point that FDNY has about 200 engines to cover 300 square miles - 18 miles by 18 miles, one engine every 90 seconds. You can do the math on replacing them. These things are purpose built. There is no "upgrade". You can also figure out the money for (not  FDNY) districts.

You could make a pickup truck that complies with NFPA for a few hundred thousand, but either way...

It'd still fail, because where  are you going to put it? Certainly not here, the bays are full.

If it's 7 minutes away, you wouldn't need it by the time it gets there. It'd only be useful for stopping the battery in the first three minutes, and it'd be an utter liability if used on any other thing in the building.

 

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

since the fire is still burning—they already have determined the cause?

So... "Burning" simply means that there may be a smoulder somewhere that can chain its way back to full ignition.  A typical structure will "still be burning" for hours (some, days) after the fire is "out". That time is spent in "overhaul", which consists of systematically destroying everything in the building that was touched by fire, in order to find anything still smouldering or producing steam. This is done with halligans, hooks, and chainsaws by people who were supposed to be off their 24 hour shift 3 hours ago.

If they miss something, the result will sometimes get someone's attention 10 to 40 hours later, and is called a "re-kindle" over dispatch.  But it really it means "you didn't finish putting the fire out".  It is made awkward by the fact that stuff will produce steam for several hours after being out, despite the fact that it cannot reignite.

Because of this, the investigation usually takes place BEFORE overhaul.  Would the investigators wait until after, there'd be nothing to look at because overhaul is literally a demolition of the structure for the purpose of chasing ghosts that may, or may not, be fire. Yes, better departments will try to balance the amount of demolition vs the risk of "steam" that cannot reignite, but at the end of the day, investigation takes place beforehand. And "steam" means something was hot enough to boil water, so...

 

There was a bit more going on in that grocery store fire than just a LiPo. Five guys got hurt on a bread-n-butter fire, something was fucky.

[Aztek]

Let's look it from the other side: if PEVs are being restricted due to fire danger (which is undeniably present) the manufacturers will be strongly motivated to improve their safety.

As an end result we'll have safer wheels ssb or not.

[JeremySPFF]

https://electrek.co/2023/03/07/nyc-banning-electric-bikes-without-ul-batteries-fires/

 

So instead of the world falling down and big government banning all things electric, the legislators took an even hand and only banned unsafe batteries. "The new law will require electric mobility devices with lithium-ion batteries sold in NYC to be certified to the UL 2849 standard"

I'm sure other cities will follow suit. This is great for the ebike industry and the PEV industry as a whole as manufacturers will uphold this standard and everyone wins. I hope this finally puts to a close this debate.

[360rumors]

I hope this encourages EUC to switch to safer batteries like solid state or LiFePO4.

[Paul A]

NYC Council moves to take on lithium-ion battery fires

1.1K views 

March 7, 2023

FOX 5 New York

 

The New York City Council has passed a flurry of legislation, aimed at cracking down on refurbished and cheaply made lithium-ion batteries after a string of recent fires sparked by the batteries that officials say has become a "full-blown crisis."

 

 

[Paul A]

Lithium battery erupts into ball of fire in West Yorkshire home #shorts

The Independent

574K subscribers

Mar 9, 2023

 

Watch the moment a lithium battery erupts into ball of fire in West Yorkshire home.

 

[Paul A]

Lithium-ion batteries still burning days after start of fire in Lancaster County

wgaltv

59.5K subscribers

Mar 7, 2023

 

 

Lithium-ion batteries were still burning on Monday in Lancaster County, three days after the start of a fire.

 

 

[GothamMike]

NYC has a lot of wood construction: the '5 story walkups" you see only have fireproof exteriors. The floors and roofs are wood-based construction.  Modern buildings now use concrete and steel.  The main reason NYC has external fire escapes are due to the internal construction being quite flamable.

 

A Tesla caught fire in my suburban neighborhood, just off the freeway. The Town Fire Department has to tow the flaming mess away and dropped it into a dumpster for immersion.  Traffic nightmare for hours.

[Paul A]

The NYC external fire escapes might not be well maintained.

Corroded bolts, weak anchoring to walls, steel that weakens from the heat of fire, built many decades ago.

People have been killed falling off badly maintained fire escapes, others have been killed by parts breaking off and falling down.

Heritage overlays, exemptions to updated building codes for buildings below five levels.

[Cerbera]

2 hours ago, Paul A said:

Watch the moment a lithium battery erupts into ball of fire in West Yorkshire home.

Well that is not what we normally see from our pack fires - that wasn't one cell doing a thermal runaway with neighbouring cells - that was a full on explosion that sounded like all cells going at once. What the hell was that pack doing to make it behave like that ?! 

[Tawpie]

24 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Well that is not what we normally see from our pack fires - that wasn't one cell doing a thermal runaway with neighbouring cells - that was a full on explosion that sounded like all cells going at once. What the hell was that pack doing to make it behave like that ?! 

You can't see the actual device, but I'd guess that it had been emitting the cloud of vapor (cell pressure relief) you see pre-ignition in other videos. When the cloud ignited, you basically have a fuel-air bomb and it all goes very quickly.

[Paul A]

28 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

What the hell was that pack doing to make it behave like that ?

 

Here's the story as reported in the BBC.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-64881631

1 day ago

BBC News

 

Halifax lithium battery house fire footage prompts warning

Alarming footage showing the moment a lithium battery exploded, sparking a house fire in West Yorkshire has been released to highlight their dangers.

The video shows a homeowner in Halifax rushing downstairs after being woken by the sound of a re-charging battery popping before it explodes into flames.

Five people were taken to hospital after the incident on 24 February.

West Yorkshire Fire and Rescue Service (WYFRS) has warned people not to leave lithium batteries charging unattended.

Watch manager John Cavalier said: "While fires involving lithium batteries are common, having a video showing the violence of the fire's development is not.

"It's clear to see in the video that the fire is absolutely horrifying. None of us would want this to happen in our homes."

 

The fire started at about 01:00 GMT after the batteries of an electric motorbike were left on charge inside the house, according to WYFRS.

Mr Cavalier said the "popping" sound indicated the batteries were failing due to "thermal runaway", which occurs when too much heat is generated within a battery.

Within seconds it exploded and a blaze erupted, setting off the smoke alarm.

 

'Fires so ferocious'

All five people involved suffered smoke inhalation, with one person suffering burns to their mouth and windpipe, however none of the injuries were life-threatening, the fire service said.

The kitchen was left severely damaged from the smoke and heat.

Mr Cavalier said firefighters "frequently" attended fires involving lithium batteries, which could be found in many items.

 

"Any other type of fire we deal with has usually developed slowly and people are able to get out quickly.

"However, battery fires are so ferocious and spread so quickly that there isn't as much time to escape," he said.

"To help keep everyone in your family safe, don't leave lithium batteries to charge unattended, don't put them in the way of exits or in hallways and unplug chargers when the batteries are at full capacity."

He thanked the homeowner for allowing the fire service to release the video for educational purposes and added it "could help to save lives".

[Cerbera]

Absolutely horrendous. Time to raise the firebox project to higher levels of priority ! :/

[Paul A]

The news report about the NYC council implementing new legislation.........requiring delivery companies to provide fireproof containers for safe storage.........should be interesting....

[Paul A]

Lithium Battery sparks fire on a plane headed for Florida: Here's how to protect yourself

FOX 35 Orlando

Mar 3, 2023

 

A Spirit Airlines flight headed for Orlando had to make an emergency stop in Jacksonville because of a fire on board.

Fire Rescue officials say it was lithium-Ion batteries that started the flames.

 

 

[Murdomeek]

Anyone remember the hoverboard fires years ago? Grade C- chinese cell battery packs some even without bms' being shipped world wide in cheap hoverboards.  They were almost insta banned world wide when the fires started popping up.  And nobody wanted this 'cheap toy time bomb' in their house.

 

Good thing the ebike industry and utility is as big as it is now. It's going to be impossible to blanket ban these devices, but have resellers and shops only sell 'certified' devices and batteries.  (Like the recent NYC ruling)

 

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Murdomeek said:

Anyone remember the hoverboard fires years ago? Grade C- chinese cell battery packs some even without bms' being shipped world wide in cheap hoverboards. 

Oh yes, I saw a kid on one the other day as I passed him on my Master - he wanted to do a race, bless him, but I pointed out that wouldn't be fair, and to make the point covered the 600 yards remaining on the cycle path in about 5 seconds leaving him and his mates' jaws on the floor. It was a pyrrhic victory, but we take them where we can !

 

Edited March 10, 2023 by Cerbera

[Tawpie]

2 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

Oh yes, I saw a kid on one the other day as I passed him on my Master - he wanted to do a race, bless him but I pointed out that wouldn't be fair, and to make the point covered the 600 yards remaining on the cycle path in about 5 seconds. It was a pyrrhic victory, but we take them where we can !

 

I do hope you ended your encounter with the power ranger pose

[Cerbera]

59 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I do hope you ended your encounter with the power ranger pose

There may have been 'some additional arms'.

[Cerbera]

10 hours ago, Paul A said:

The fire started at about 01:00 GMT after the batteries of an electric motorbike were left on charge inside the house, according to WYFRS.

Mr Cavalier said the "popping" sound indicated the batteries were failing due to "thermal runaway", which occurs when too much heat is generated within a battery.

Within seconds it exploded and a blaze erupted, setting off the smoke alarm.

This is shit information ! Far too alarmist and general. I wonder if there are fireman forums where this is properly discussed, and people can try and find out why this fire happened.

Was the user trying to fire 20 amps up its arse ? Was it a reconditioned battery pack, was it previously balanced, had the machine been in crash, or exposed to water, what cells were they, what was the configuration of them, and how old were they etc etc. Very difficult to learn from any of these fires without that sort of information - TBH I suspect the fire brigade is not asking these questions, and if they are, they don't seem to be publishing the answers anywhere public !

Edited March 10, 2023 by Cerbera