Top seven most common (absolute) beginner mistakes

[Mono]

This post addresses newbies who can't yet balance reliably. It is mainly based on my personal experience of years of tutoring dozens of total newbies and see them learn.

For learning how to ride an EUC ("the wheel"), the most difficult part for a beginner is to maintain the left-right (lateral) balance. For this, the crucial reflex is to steer the wheel back under the riders center of gravity whenever the rider starts to topple over to the left or the right (in other words, whenever the ground contact point of the tire is laterally displaced to the riders gravitational center). This reflex inevitably needs to be acquired to balance reliably.

This 30 second instruction, 3:05-3:35, and this 60 second instruction, 4:04-5:04, are in my mind still the best beginner instructions that I know of, despite being ten years old. One decisive message: tilting the wheel sideways is a supplementary but insufficient reflex for lateral balancing (see for example here and here). Rather twist or twist-tilt or swivel the wheel (see for example here and here and here). Random swivel movements are a good exercise hack to learn such a reflex fast, as shown here at 5:28-5:46 for learning how to ride a bicycle backwards.

Beginners commonly face the problem that tilt steering,* which they usually do intuitively, is often good enough to stay balanced, but not always, which makes the learning feedback quite confusing. All the above is to say that the most intricate mistake (the one that is most difficult to correct) is to try to tilt the wheel to stay balanced instead of also twist or swivel it (that is, applying also a torque force around the vertical axis). Most other mistakes are, in comparison, easy to observe and fix.

This is my list of the top seven most common beginner mistakes that prevent making quick initial progress:

1. standing too far back on the foot plates
2. going too slowly (somewhat above fast walking speed like 9 km/h is a good target speed)
3. only tilting the wheel to steer for balance, instead of also twisting or swiveling (see above)
4. practicing on a sticky surface which makes twisting corrections at low speed hard
5. looking down after the feet have been placed correctly
6. extending or locking the knees thereby restricting the mobility of the knees and feet to swivel control the wheel
7. pushing the hip backwards (or crouching the upper body) which hinders acceleration

A beginner who can avoid or quickly correct for all of the above should be up and running within 30 minutes. This is not commonplace as it can be difficult to become aware of a mistakes, let alone correcting for them consistently.

I'll add two common mistakes that can lead to painful encounters (AKA wheel bite) or possibly even injury:

• Stepping down too close to the wheel such that the pedal can scratch the ankle or lower leg. Always, always make a big-ish step when stepping off the wheel. Bend the knees and lower the hip before to step off. This practice also helps to prevent falls. Be also prepared to get the legs out of the way in case the wheel topples over.
• Trying to catch the wheel with the hands after it has toppled over and is still moving or spinning. It is fine to try to catch the wheel (somewhere at the top) when it has come loose and is still upright (and moving). However, never ever try to catch the wheel with the hands when it is already down and still moving or spinning or even dancing. The spinning tire can suck in a finger into the gap between shell and tire (ouch). Always, always wait until the wheel has stopped spinning (motor is evidently off) and everything is at rest before to grab the wheel. Never grab the wheel at the tire for the same reason: the wheel is bound to start spinning even when the motor is off and may quicker than expected catch a finger or two. I know this for certain 

Matching a few observed problems to the above mistakes:

• I can't accelerate -> 1. or 5.-7. (see also b) below)
• I constantly fall off -> 2.-6.
• I can't stop -> 6. (and bring the wheel in front of you to stop)
• I am afraid to fall off -> 5. or 6. (and practice to make a big-ish step to step off the wheel)
• I can't chose the direction where I am going -> 2. or 5.-6. (and just keep on trying)

 

* In our context, "steering" refers to changing the left-right direction of the wheel alone, not the direction of the rider or rider plus wheel. Steering the wheel in this sense is bound to change the relative positioning between wheel and rider.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Mono

[Mono]

Additional notes:

I'd recommend against starting with scooter-like pushes before the balance issue is settled. Just

a) understand where to place the foot and leg (see below, check the correct positioning with one foot on the ground),

b) hop on while holding on to something (it helps to tilt the wheel towards the foot that is hopping on last), adjust foot positions, check off mistakes 5-7 and take a minute to figure out how (and practice to) move the wheel under the body forward and backward. Note that you can initiate acceleration by moving the wheel backward under the body,

c) check mistakes 5-7 again and off you go where during the first attempts it is a good idea to hold on to someone (preferably) or something.

 

re. 1 foot position: The heel and the ball of the foot tend to have the same distance to the center of the pedal (the wheel axle). The heel should be fully on the pedal and not touch the edge. The lower leg should touch the side of the wheel close to its center (forward-backward wise) which means the knees are positioned slightly forward and slightly bent.

 

re. 2 going slowly: The speed is a compromise between ease of learning and managing the situation when something "goes wrong" as it is to be expected (unless someone is escorting the beginner side by side to hold on to). Balancing is achieved by constantly steering the wheel back under the riders center of gravity and low speed means that the wheel needs more (or too much) time to get back. Below 6km/h it starts to become genuinely hard not only for beginners (though not impossible).

 

re. 3 only tilting to steer for balance: It helps to exaggerate the corrective steering motions to keep balance (steer the wheel back under the riders center of gravity) as well as to stretch out the arms sideways. The steering motions will become smaller and smaller with practice and will later remain recognizable only at low speed. On a more general note, the wheel tilt determines the natural path of the wheel (specifically of the tire on the ground) and somewhat presets a curve radius. The more tilt, the tighter the turn. This curve radius is mainly determined by the intricate mechanisms of tire camber and mainly independent of speed.

 

re. 4 sticky surface: A sticky surface is not a deal breaker, it just makes learning harder. You may check how much the tire sticks to the surface by trying to twist at standstill. Tar and cement tend to be too sticky to be ideal. Carpets and other soft surfaces may become far too sticky under load. A smooth-ish and firm but unpaved surface is usually best. Smooth stone surfaces vary but tend to be good in terms of (lack of) stickiness while they are uncomfortably hard to fall on.

 

re. 5 looking down: Look straight ahead and not on the ground. The ground should be fine (check that beforehand). In contrast, when you (later) ride a road that you don't know by heart, always and constantly inspect the ground. Only (very) advanced riders can deal with unexpected potholes or even speed bumps. Unexpected speed bumps are the worst as they leave zero preparation time.

 

re. 6 locking the knees: Flexible and bent knees are a great asset in the life of an EUC rider at all levels and skills of riding. They can easily be a life saver and should prevent almost all face plants (converting some of them into butt plants). Bent knees make stepping off easier. Bent and flexible knees allow to somewhat freely reposition the wheel under the body and to handle potholes and speed bumps.

 

re. 7 backwards hip: Pushing the hip forward while keeping the upper body upright (don't push just the hip) is a neat acceleration technique at any skill level. Many advanced riders accelerate by lowering the upper body forward which I don't recommend for beginners, because it exacerbates the risk of a face plant. Pushing the hip back and down while keeping the upper body straight is a good way to brake.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Mono

[Cerbera]

For the most part I agree with all of that, but I worry there is slightly too much emphasis on bent legs all the time. With bent knees the legs are in a constant stress position, which is great for building thigh muscles, and absorbing bumps on non-suspension machines, but we should always be aware of the price we pay in 'frame rigidity' by doing that. If the knees are bent anything past 'slightly' for any length of time, we add another 'imbalance possibility' to the prevailing forces at work. Locked knees are equal knees !

Locked knees are the best thing to do in several situations:

1. Riding quite slowly and passing pedestrians on narrow pavements, where it is important that you run exactly straight.

2. When you want to impart maximum acceleration to the wheel in shortest possible time you want locked knees and straight spine, and direct forward lean. Same does not apply when braking, when we need to bend knees a lot more for better recovery. Increases risk of over-lean of course but this can be avoided with experience.

3. Giving your legs a break on rough ground. It becomes tiring to use your knees as suspension for extended periods, and there is some respite to be had from that strain by briefly locking your knees (or close to it) on the smoother bits.

So in summary on that point, I think your knees should be 'just off' locked most of the time, but soft-lock in when needed, as circumstances arise.

By 'soft-lock' I mean that state where the leg is nearly straight, but not forced so by muscles, and is still able to fully relax.

The thing we should avoid is what I have come to know as the 'hard-knee-lock' where there whole leg is in tension making sure the leg is locked as tight as possible - there is no advantage to this in any circumstances I have yet come across.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Cerbera

[Mono]

@Cerbera the OP was for beginners who can't yet balance reliably and their common mistakes. I can't remember I was tempted even once to advise a beginner to have less bent knees, so I figure it should be rare.

For the rest of us, yes, muscles need to be build and burning legs are a thing and hence taking breaks too, so I perfectly agree with your 3rd point. On the other hand, I personally don't want to compromise on the life saving aspect of flexible knees and I am not sure one can overemphasize the safety relevance. Like some riders won't ride without a helmet, I attempt to never ride with nearly straight legs unless I go slowly and know for certain that the surface is nearly perfect and dry. With locked knees, a speed bump can produce a face plant at walking speed, guess how I would know 

I don't ride a suspension wheel and I usually bent the knees such that my hip lowers by about 1cm compared to straight knees (for which my knees have to move about 7cm forward, that's like a 7cm head start to manage the next street bump). I find this position in itself still relatively relaxed. My requirement on knee flexibility is that before I separate from the wheel by accident my hip must have been at least 10cm lower than with fully extended knees (as a reaction to the situation). Otherwise I'd consider myself to have made a serious rider error (with the exception of getting hit from behind).

There are several ways to get maximal acceleration, though it depends on the pad situation and wheel power. Your proposition, a full body lean with stretched knees, is the classical method. Bending the upper body forward (and possibly stretching the arms forward) without changing the position of hip and legs is another more recent technique. Mine is to move my hip forward and down without changing the upper body position much or at all (which is analogous to my braking technique moving the hip back and down). All these work fine to get maximal acceleration and I obviously like mine most. I use Kuji pads as I don't like to be locked into power pads, so I can't say how compatible my technique is with any kind of power pads (it's probably not).

I feel to have more control and precision with bent knees at any speed. As far as I am aware, I also crawl in crowds with bent and flexible legs where I also want to be able to step off instantaneously. That's just me, other people may have different mileages.

How to lean for showing off:

      00~    00~    00~    00~    00~    
        \     |      |     _|     _/     
        /\   /|     /|      /     /    
          \    \     /     /     /    
           \    \    \    |     /    
           O    O    O    O    O       

How to lean for playing it safe: 

              00~   00~   00~        
        00~    |     |    _|    00~
         |    /|    /|     |    _| 
        /|     /     /    //   __| 
         /_    \\    \    \    \   
           O    O    O    O    O   

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mono

[Tawpie]

I'm a proponent of bent knees all the time. Riding zombie style is a good way to get bounced off the pedals... I found that yes, I must build my quads and until they're strong enough I had to get off and walk around and rest. But now that they're strong enough for 1+ hour of riding at a go, the rest periods are coming for other reasons (like, taking in the scenery!)

20 minutes ago, Mono said:

How to lean for playing it safe: 

Should really be: How to lean (experienced rider). And it should be the only thing taught...

[MrEUCMan]

Biggest mistake: babying the wheel. Learning how to not scratch / drop the wheel instead of learning how to ride it. To learn basically count the number of times you drop the wheel. 20 times, you are just starting. 200 times, you are now an expert. Extrapolate. 

[Carey]

Hi,

I'm just starting my EUC adventure (at 56!) and took a first ride (learning ride) on my son's V8S. Thank you to the OP and other posters for all the info and the links to watch as well as read. Coming from a surfing, skate&snowboarding, and rollerblading background, I found a lot of that learned muscle memory made getting up and riding a wheel much easier.

I'm certainly no expert (one ride only), but from the standpoint of a newbie, I found keeping my knees bent a bit was very helpful, as was trying to keep my upper body mostly perpendicular to the street. I did move my hips side to side at times to adjust my center of gravity as the wheel was leaning away from me.

For acceleration and breaking, I first used my ankles to tilt my feet down and up (feet remained flat on the pedal) and then progressed to a bit of body lean.

As for stepping off (to stop or avoid a fall), my ankle wishes I had emphasized the "take a biggish sideways step" off the pedal as my ankle left a skin tag on the outer edge of the pedal during a quick dismount.

Regarding getting the wheel back under you, I totally agree that a little wiggle of the wheel at slow speeds in addition to leaning helped me direct a wandering wheel back beneath me. 

And finally, I would emphasize that wearing protective gear is a must for newbies (and hopefully for experienced riders as well :-)), as nothing dampens the joy of a new hobby more than an injury - especially one that could have been avoided by wearing the right gear. 

Enjoy the ride! 

Carey

[Mono]

On 11/17/2022 at 5:44 PM, Carey said:

I would emphasize that wearing protective gear is a must for newbies

Mileages vary. I only used shin guards for learning and generally teach newbies without any gear (paddings have hugely improved since I learned) unless they insist. I am a big fan of preventing hazard even before it happens over protecting against hazard happening.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Mono

[Carey]

I agree with the prevention approach, but I see nothing wrong with a belt and suspenders approach. I've been riding six months now and the only bad fall I've taken was two weeks ago when a steeper than perceived decline, accompanied with a unseen break in the sidewalk concrete required along with a little too late hard breaking caused me to tumble forward off my EUC at about 15-17 mph. I rolled into and out of the Wipeout, but jammed my right wrist all the same. Sadly, I hadn't worn wrist guards that day, so my wrist is still sore today with somewhat limited motion. No breaks, no road rash, but a strained, sore, and limited motion wrist makes me regret not wearing wrist guards. 

You might say a better dose of defensive riding would have prevented the Wipeout. And while possible, I add that there is a reason they are called accidents. Unless it negatively affects your response time or maneuverability,  I don't see why it is a bad idea to wear pads. 

And of course, to each her own, and we should all definitely get to make our own choices about how much protection to use. My example above is merely representative of my choice. 

Enjoy the ride!

[Mono]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:19 PM, Carey said:

You might say a better dose of defensive riding would have prevented the Wipeout. And while possible, I add that there is a reason they are called accidents.

The reason is that they are not intentional. However that doesn't mean at all that they may not be preventable most of the time.

On 4/24/2023 at 4:19 PM, Carey said:

Unless it negatively affects your response time or maneuverability,  I don't see why it is a bad idea to wear pads. 

A few reasons come immediately in mind (I am not saying they are necessarily all true):

1. It's impractical to carry around and takes time to put on and off (thereby possibly raising the bar of usage and raising the overall travel time).
2. It could induce additional risk taking by the rider and if visible by others who see the protection.
3. It could prevent additional efforts of prevention, like seeking out specific safety exercises.
4. It communicates to others that riding an EUC is dangerous or painful.
5. A sore wrist can be an effective reminder for tuning risks down instead of getting increasingly careless heading towards a more seriously injury. Close calls are very valuable events for people who are able to learn from them.
6. EDIT: to get from A to B takes longer or one needs to ride faster. Say a typical A-to-B trip lasts 15 minutes and putting on and off the padding takes 2+1 minutes. Then, one needs to travel 25% faster to reach the destination in the same time, which, with all likelihood, increases the risk of an accident and also increases the impact by 56% when an accident happens.
7. EDIT: the weight can increase the impact the rider will endure. For example, when falling forward/sideward on the shoulder in some sort of faceplant scenario, the weight of the helmet adds to the impact and due to the leverage probably even significantly so.

In the context of this thread, learning to ride, we talk about low speeds. It's kinda interesting that the country where cyclists don't wear gear has the lowest rate of injury and death. Also, gender is a much better predictor for cyclist injuries (which is observed in other transportation modes too) than gear. That does not mean that gear can not prevent injury in case of an accident at all. It just means that there are other factors in play that are probably (considerably) more important.

Edited January 21 by Mono

[mrelwood]

It's all about the amount of risk that one is ready to take. If it's more important to the rider how others see him, then sure, ride naked for all I care. But there are several very good reasons why the vast majority of riders, fast and slow, gear up. Some of them have had the most severe crashes at very low speeds. All @Mono's arguments are so easily refuted that I almost didn't even bother. But here goes:

1. Buy gear that you'll use, and which fits your preferred risk level. When I go out without an EUC, I'll put on pants, a jacket, hat and gloves anyway. When I go riding I just put a different jacket, pants, hat, and gloves. Barely any extra effort.
2. If I ride without gear, I stay below 25km/h and I don't ride past our parking lot. So yes, protective gear will definitely increase the amount of risk I take. But how is that an argument for not wearing gear while riding?
3. This one is so clearly just something you whipped up without any relation to reality. Maybe just to make the list look longer? No matter how well you practice your rolls and defensive riding techniques, EUCs sometimes cut out. Tires sometimes deflate rapidly. Tree shadows sometimes hide bad potholes. Bicyclists sometimes turn erraticly. The list of unknowns is so extensive that it's absurd to think you could excercise yourself to protect yourself from all of them.
4. Riding an EUC can be dangerous and painful. Why should we hide it, especially when the personal cost of doing so can be so huge?
5. Tell that to all the riders who have been hospitalized due to an accident, that have made them unable to work for months. There are a lot of X-ray scans published on this forum, most of which could've been so easily prevented with proper gear.

Install a front tire and ride below 25km/h and I'll agree that knee pads are probably unnecessary. But we don't have a front tire, nor do we generally stay below 25km/h for more than maybe a week.

Humans are stubborn by nature, and for many riders it takes the first major crash to start wearing gear. It completely changes the tone on how they see gearing up, but the problem is that it may already be too late. You can get long lasting or even permanent damage crashing at 30km/h, whether it was your fault or not. Heck, some have broken their wrist from an unsuccesful mount at 0km/h. Is your argument that they should've practiced mounting more?? That's what they were doing ffs!

[Mono]

I am not saying that each and every of my points on "what's the disadvantage of gear" is true. I am saying that there are possible downsides and we can't possibly know whether or how relevant they are because we don't have enough information (for EUCs).

Of course, any gear discussion crucially depends on speed (I know, some people like to say that you can injure yourself at any speed, which is true because the final free fall speed from 1.5m is already 20km/h, but possibility does not equal probability). This thread is about learning, so I generally did not talk about higher speeds and motorcycle-type riding.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, mrelwood said:

When I go riding I just put a different jacket, pants, hat, and gloves. Barely any extra effort.

If someone goes to an event where they want to be dressed in a certain way, then you advise to take the car?

A practical way of transportation should not dictate the clothes one needs to wear and this is a relevant decision criterion for, at least, some part of the population.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, mrelwood said:

So yes, protective gear will definitely increase the amount of risk I take. But how is that an argument for not wearing gear while riding?

I am confused, the logic seems obvious to me 

On 4/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, mrelwood said:

This one is so clearly just something you whipped up without any relation to reality. Maybe just to make the list look longer? No matter how well you practice your rolls and defensive riding techniques, EUCs sometimes cut out. Tires sometimes deflate rapidly. Tree shadows sometimes hide bad potholes. Bicyclists sometimes turn erraticly. The list of unknowns is so extensive that it's absurd to think you could excercise yourself to protect yourself from all of them.

Sure, if you want to protect yourself against "EUCs sometimes cutting out", you might be best off wearing gear. Yet I believe we have agreed many times that this is a pretty rare event in comparison to rider errors. I have ridden through several wheel and tire failures, so I know from personal experience what we are talking about.

I am curious, what it is your explanation why gender is a much better predictor for risk than gear?

On 4/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, mrelwood said:

There are a lot of X-ray scans published on this forum, most of which could've been so easily prevented with proper gear.

I have seen the same pictures and I don't think so. Out of my head, the typical severe injuries are broken upper arms or shoulders and broken legs. Both are pretty difficult to reliably prevent with standard gear.

On 4/25/2023 at 7:08 AM, mrelwood said:

But we don't have a front tire, nor do we generally stay below 25km/h for more than maybe a week.

I have no doubts that this is true for you and many other riders and of course, I dare to say, you should wear gear if you ride much faster than 25km/h, by all means.

But then there is still many other riders and myself who never ride above 25km/h (none of my wheels can go faster, new wheels are sold with this speed limit here due to legislation, and I haven't changed it and never will).

The discussion started about the question whether gear is a must for newbies learning riding, maybe at speeds of 10-15km/h.

Edited January 21 by Mono

[redsnapper]

minimal gear imo - helmet and gloves.  at almost any speed hitting the ground without at least those 2 will produce possible brain injury (with life altering consequences) and hands that are shredded. You may shred other parts without additional gear but head and hands are pretty well essential for daily life...

[Mono]

38 minutes ago, redsnapper said:

minimal gear imo - helmet and gloves.  at almost any speed hitting the ground without at least those 2 will produce possible brain injury

sure, that's true, in particular when walking or jogging or running or going down stairs or climbing up a ladder...

Car accidents also produce occasionally severe and fatal head injuries, probably half of which could be prevented by wearing a helmet.

[woke rider]

My biggest mistakes when learning were that I didn't wear shin guards, I should have practiced on carpet or some kind of turf in a familiar setting, and I should have limited my practice time to like 10 minutes per day. I was overly excited, and I should have managed that better. Also, never trying to show off, that one thing has caused me more accidents than anything, making movements not related to actually riding, but that serve more of a social feeling.

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

I am not saying that each and every of my points is true. I am saying that there are possible downsides and we can't possibly know whether or how relevant they are because we don't have enough information.

So, what was the point of sharing your personal list of one sided potential what-ifs that even you don’t know if they hold any water or not?

 When we are discussing with new riders or typing into a topic intended for them as guidance, one must think things a bit further and practice some level of responsibility and accountability. To give new riders the idea that seasoned riders wouldn’t generally use gear or that gear does more harm than good, is very irresponsible, even if parts of it were true.

It’s good that you mentioned yourself riding no faster than 25km/h, since it is extremely rare, and explains the basis for your opinions. Hopefully it also gives new riders much better info on how to relate to your comments. Though I am sad that a person who has taught so many people to ride is equipped with such rare opinions on crucial matters such as this.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

If someone goes to an event where they want to be dressed in a certain way, then you advise to take the car?

I didn’t say anything in those lines. But:

3 hours ago, Mono said:

A practical way of transportation does not dictate the clothes one needs to wear

I agree. An EUC is not at all always a practical way of transportation. In many cases it is much better to use something else.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

I am confused, the logic seems obvious to me 

In that case surely you agree that handcuffs are much more effective as a protective gear than any helmet or other piece of gear that riders generally use?

3 hours ago, Mono said:

Sure, if you want to protect yourself against of "EUCs sometimes cutting out", you might be best off wearing gear. Yet I believe we have agreed many times that this is a pretty rare event in comparison to rider errors. I have ridden through several wheel and tire failures, so I know from personal experience what we are talking about.

This is interesting. If you have ridden through several wheel failures, and say that they are pretty rare compared to rider errors, does that mean that you have crashed a lot more due to rider errors?

3 hours ago, Mono said:

I am curious, what it is your explanation why gender is a much better predictor for risk than gear?

I don’t know if it is or isn’t for EUC riders. The most profilic female rider at the moment has had at least two high speed crashes within just a few months.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

Both are pretty difficult to reliably prevent with standard gear.

Of course they are. Gear doesn’t “reliably prevent” from anything other than maybe road rash. Which by itself is a pretty big deal, I’d assume that you have seen also some of the photos where the riders hands, knees, sides and other areas are completely skinless due to sliding on pavement. Those photos are rough.

 The point of gear is to minimize the damage. Nobody has ever promised that it would prevent any damage from happening. Though that too does sometimes happen, and some people have gotten up from high speed crashes and continued riding. Without gear you’re sliding on flesh right after the clothes tear out the moment you hit the ground. At 25km/h you still have a small chance to run or roll it out, but any faster and that and you slide.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

you should wear gear if you ride much faster than 25km/h, by all means.

Nice to hear that we agree on this.

3 hours ago, Mono said:

The discussion started about the question whether gear is a must for newbies learning riding, maybe at speeds of 10-15km/h.

Helmet and wrist supporting gloves (or gloves and separate wrist supports) are usually fine for that situation. But the last I saw a person learn riding, he was passing 30-35km/h within the hour.

 

20 minutes ago, Mono said:

sure, that's true, in particular when walking or jogging or running or going down stairs or climbing up a ladder...

The crucial difference being that in your examples the person is not stabilizing on a single point of contact that is free to roll out from under them on low friction ball bearings.

20 minutes ago, Mono said:

Car accidents also produce occasionally severe and fatal head injuries, probably half of which could be prevented by wearing a helmet.

You might want to check some stats on this. How many people receive head trauma from a car crash per population, and how many EUC riders crash or fall out of all riders.

 There’s a saying about EUC riding, that “It’s not about if you crash or not, it’s about when you crash.” Why do you think such a saying has gotten so popular?

[Cerbera]

Just now, mrelwood said:

I don’t know if it is or isn’t for EUC riders. The most profilic female rider at the moment has had at least two high speed crashes within just a few months.

Perhaps you mean lovely Dawn !? I just watched her fall off her Master twice in 10 minutes on her country trails today, she's a proper speed demon on the roads, but I think any perceived trend about guys taking generally more risks / riding more aggressively than girls on ALL forms of performance transport probably holds some water with EUCs as well, though of course there will exceptions at both ends - guys that prefer the slow roll, and girls that are all about the revs...

[woke rider]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:54 PM, Mono said:

pushing the hip backwards (or crouching the upper body) which hinders acceleration

@Mono While I appreciate your helpful instruction, I have to say I use rising from a crouching posture as a method of gaining speed. I guess I have always been afraid of using leaning as a way to gain speed. Don't feel bad about the criticism you have received, just take it as important feedback. Personally, I think there are a lot of ways to learn. I would have saved myself a bruise laceration to my shin, had I worn shin-guards on my first day. And I definitely should have spent the money on safety gear before I bought my first EUC. I hope you still teach people how to ride because it's only natural to share your enthusiasm, but remember our shared passion for riding is probably the riskiest thing a person can do in life. I have spent years accumulating safety gear. I get a lot more respect in public if I at least have a helmet on.

Edited April 25, 2023 by earthtwin
forgotten word

[Cerbera]

4 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

I get a lot more respect in public if I at least have a helmet on.

I get that a lot too ! Came across what looked like might be a typically grumpy old man just the other day, and readied myself for the normal 'tuts of disapproval', but instead he gave me a double thumbs up, and shouted 'nice to see one of you properly geared up !'

Edited April 25, 2023 by Cerbera

[The Brahan Seer]

4 hours ago, Mono said:

Car accidents also produce occasionally severe and fatal head injuries, probably half of which could be prevented by wearing a helmet.

This is true! Governments in the past have considered; should people wear helmets in cars to prevent injury? Lots of flying glass in car accidents. Obviously people thought I'm not messing my hair up and doing that and so it has never been popular, so no one or very few do it (rally driver!) and governments dropped the idea. Its interesting how much stuff we happily take in the car unsecured that in event of a serious crash would cause us significant harm or death (EUC in the back seatwell anyone? me included) laptops, shopping?

I remember once rolling my car and afterwards found my spare wheel lying on the back seat. It had travelled from its (unsecured-my bad) location under the boot(trunk) floor and made its way into the passenger compartment. Good job I had head rests or I may have had a wheel in my head.

Ultimately we all dynamic risk assess and I don't see it as a major problem not wearing gear if going very slow, learning or on soft terrain occasionally.

The risk is very low and I imagine everyone has common sense too. Yes someone very unlucky will still injure themselves at zero miles per hour and break a leg; thats just life. Otherwise we would all be wearing helmets in cars. Shit happens.

Now personally I wear ATGATT but I bounce hard.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by The Brahan Seer
shorter sentences, grammar correction

[woke rider]

I like that you have a helmet on in your avatar Wearing a helmet in public sends the message that we aren't complete lunatics, even if it's just a bike helmet. Wearing a motocross helmet definitely gets more attention, but not necessarily respect because, again it makes us look crazy like Mono so perceptively noticed. If a person isn't even willing to protect their head on one of these extremely dangerous EUC vehicles then that shows that they aren't responsible.

[rcgldr]

On 11/6/2022 at 3:54 PM, Mono said:

Beginners commonly face the problem that tilt steering,* which they usually do intuitively is often good enough to stay balanced

I would think arm flailing left to twist the EUC right and vice versa for balance would be more intuitive than tilting. After doing the typical beginner stuff, using support to mount, getting feet centered on pedals, rocking back and forth to get used to the feel of my V8F, then doing a few short runs next to a fence, and again using support to mount and launch, I ventured away from the fence and was able to do laps around a tennis court at 3 to 5 mph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPyy84EThmM

After seeing the video, I corrected my hunched over stance. A 3 year old using the same method.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z9YiHu5HJ6o

However, learning to ride at such a slow speed is something that can be learned later. At sufficient speed, a EUC will become self-stable. I discovered this on my V8F at around 6 to 8 mph where I no longer had to make balance corrections and could relax my arms if just riding in a straight line. It was only then that I started to learn how to tilt steer (inner foot down, outer foot up), first small tilts to see how my V8F would respond, then mild weaves while going straight, then large radius turns.

For me, Kuji Roll's video teaching a girl to ride on a V8 was the most helpful, with some caveats. Setting tire pressure at 25 psi was OK for the light girl, but 30 to 35 psi would be more typical. Kuji mentions pressing with inner toe to turn, but that would also accelerate the EUC, so the actual description should be to tilt the EUC (inner foot down, outer foot up). Link to Kuji's video where showing the girl using support to mount, rock back and forth and while leaned forwards release (don't push) from support to launch. She uses extended arms and some arm flailing for balance and to turn at first, but towards the end of the video, she's going fast enough for the V8 to become self-stable, relaxes her arms and is tilt steering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6o8ZMlo5ko&t=412s

I used this video of a girl on an S18 as a guide for tilt steering, since she rides Marty Backe|Duf style, no carving, no twisting, just tilting the EUC and leaning. Due to tire, speed, turning radius, ...,  she tilts the S18 less than she leans:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hWMwK3Cfs0&t=15s

In addition to typical safety gear, I would recommend buying cloth shin guards and turn them inwards to reduce bruising of inner calfs when first learning to ride.

How much to tilt an EUC and how much to lean depends on speed and turning radius. At slow speed an EUC is tilted more than the rider:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqoNhGEhk2Y

To learn this, while riding on a long and wide pathway, (like an outdoor parking lot)  I would lean a small amount, then tilt steer into direction of lean to return to vertical, weaving left and right. Over time, I varied speed and turning radius to learn how to coordinate tilt and lean versus speed and turning radius.

I waited until day 5 before I tried to free mount, and since I could already ride, I just had to push forward and step on (got it on my third try after compensating for my only time on a grass field). Wrong Way's video shows Kate (Monokat) doing this for the first time on a 77 lb Veteran Sherman and she had already ridden 60 to 80 km and knew how to ride (using support to mount and launch), she gets it on her second try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW-y5RiecMc&t=634s

The next drill was while riding at a stable speed, be able to move|look around without upsetting balance or changing direction, which is needed for riding with others around.

 

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[woke rider]

I'm not sure if I learned wrong or what, but I don't think I ever learned to actually balance until I learned to ride my Z10, because I actually learned on a King Song 14D, but I don't think I learned how to actually balance the tire on the sides of the tread until I learned how to ride the Z10. So when I started riding my my 14D again having learned how to actually balance on the full range of the tire, wow, so much fun. So for actual riding tip for a beginner, be sure to learn how to balance on the full range of tire tread on whatever model you ride because, wow, it's a lot different, and makes riding so much more fun.

[rcgldr]

12 hours ago, earthtwin said:

I'm not sure if I learned wrong or what, but I don't think I ever learned to actually balance until I learned to ride my Z10, because I actually learned on a King Song 14D, but I don't think I learned how to actually balance the tire on the sides of the tread until I learned how to ride the Z10. So when I started riding my my 14D again having learned how to actually balance on the full range of the tire, wow, so much fun. So for actual riding tip for a beginner, be sure to learn how to balance on the full range of tire tread on whatever model you ride because, wow, it's a lot different, and makes riding so much more fun.

I'm not sure what you mean by full range of tire tread, as pedal scrape will occur well before reaching the edge of the tire tread.

[woke rider]

1 hour ago, rcgldr said:

I'm not sure what you mean by full range of tire tread, as pedal scrape will occur well before reaching the edge of the tire tread.

I know, right? To ride a Z10 I learned how to go straight even though the side of the tread was what was making contact with the road, so it' learning how to go straight even though the EUC is at a closer angle than perpendicular to the riding surface. Thanks for helping me to clarify this, because it's hard to describe what changed.

I realize every Newbie always thinks they have discovered something new, but this time I really am on to something. It's perfectly normal for somebody to think that their EUC is special, but the Z10 truly is special, and learning to ride it straight no matter the angle of the road or the angle of the Z10 is a learned skill that becomes subconscious.

A common sentiment amongst Z10 riders is that they often have to relearn how to ride a normal (whatever that means) wheel. So, when I learned how to tame the bronco that the Z10 is, I dramatically increased my ability to ride a normal wheel at an angle other than perpendicular on an uneven pavement. So, it's not necessarily re-learning how to ride a normal wheel, it's learning a transferable skill that increases ones control over any EUC.

Edited April 26, 2023 by earthtwin
elaboration