Top seven most common (absolute) beginner mistakes

[rcgldr]

2 hours ago, earthtwin said:

Z10 ... uneven pavement.

The issue with the Z10 is it's 4.1 inch wide tire, which makes it sensitive to tilt and therefore sensitive to cambered (sloped left|right) surfaces, called tram tracking. Wrong Way covers this in his video on how tires affect response to tilting (wider more sensitive than narrow, street tire more sensitive than knobby). Link with time set to section on tram tracking. He mentions it's a struggle with the Z10 on a very cambered surface as seen in the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsXW4OKnmWc&t=470s

What is actually happening on a transition to a cambered surface, an EUC will momentarily turn up slope on a cambered surface from under the rider, and momentum and imbalance will end up tilting the EUC down slope. In the case of constant camber changes like some dirt trails, it's similar to dealing with a gusting crosswind.

Edited April 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[Mono]

On 4/25/2023 at 3:56 PM, earthtwin said:

I should have practiced on carpet

Carpet is in my experience a very difficult surface to learn on, so not to be recommended IMHO

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

So, what was the point of sharing your personal list of one sided potential what-ifs

Someone was asking, that is, they were saying that they can't see any possible disadvantages.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

that even you don’t know if they hold any water or not?

which is true for many claims people make, in particular when it comes to gear. They just don't say it out loud as I did, or they are not aware of it. This holds for your "refutations" too.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

In that case surely you agree that handcuffs are much more effective as a protective gear than any helmet or other piece of gear that riders generally use?

No. Looks like you are asking the tough questions.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

I agree. An EUC is not at all always a practical way of transportation.

I see, we have different perspectives then. The EUC without change of wardrobe is to me the most practical way of transport that I know of (by far) for all trips above 50m (I never walk to the next bakery) and below around 4-15km, depending on the situation. Above that, I prefer something that runs on tracks (and I obviously don't ever walk to the train station). I say this after having lived it for more than six years now.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

This is interesting. If you have ridden through several wheel failures, and say that they are pretty rare compared to rider errors, does that mean that you have crashed a lot more due to rider errors?

Yes, obviously. Most of the crashes didn't end up with me lying on the ground, some did.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

I don’t know if it is or isn’t for EUC riders. The most profilic female rider at the moment has had at least two high speed crashes within just a few months.

Right, we don't know any of this for EUC riders. The question (which you didn't answer) was: what it is your explanation why gender is a much better predictor for risk than gear? We do have (I suspect tons of) data on gender vs risk for cycling, which I stumbled over, and I would be surprised if we had not similar data for motorcycling and driving cars too (it's pretty valuable data for insurance). Yet, going by a single example for EUCs (and, IIRC, the example of a stunt woman) you call this an "I don't know". We live in different worlds.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

The crucial difference being that in your examples the person is not stabilizing on a single point of contact that is free to roll out from under them on low friction ball bearings.

After having died from an head injury it's kinda unimportant with how many contact points it happened. The relevant questions are: what is the likelihood that it does happen and how can this likelihood be mitigated.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

You might want to check some stats on this.

Or you want? I know I know, advice is there to give to others rather than abide by ourselves.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:05 PM, mrelwood said:

There’s a saying about EUC riding, that “It’s not about if you crash or not, it’s about when you crash.” Why do you think such a saying has gotten so popular?

I suspect it is because people crash often in particular when they are beginners and moderately advanced and like to talk about it. I suspect it's not because a statistically relevant number of people suffered severe head injuries while riding an EUC.

On 4/25/2023 at 4:38 PM, earthtwin said:

I use rising from a crouching posture as a method of gaining speed.

I do that too sometimes. It feels like a natural movement. All fine if you know what you are doing 

On 4/25/2023 at 8:29 PM, earthtwin said:

Wearing a helmet in public sends the message that we aren't complete lunatics

Or maybe the opposite, being as lunatic as to take up a new activity in public that is as dangerous as requiring wearing a helmet, often even a full face helmet...

On 4/25/2023 at 8:29 PM, earthtwin said:

If a person isn't even willing to protect their head on one of these extremely dangerous EUC vehicles then that shows that they aren't responsible.

Or maybe they have a different estimate of the involved risks, or maybe...there are usually many perspectives on the same thing and it is often not unambiguously obvious which is the "right" or the most common one.

On 4/26/2023 at 4:10 AM, earthtwin said:

I don't think I ever learned to actually balance until I learned to ride my Z10

I assume you were going more than 100m without holding onto something with your previous wheel in one go, which would by my definition mean you had learned to balance. There are indeed after that all kind of situations and skills that need some or a lot of practice to be mastered (like traversing an incline which is unexpectedly difficult).

On 4/26/2023 at 4:10 AM, earthtwin said:

balance the tire on the sides of the tread

Tilting the wheel (or riding a street with a side slope) makes it follow a curve instead of a straight line (AKA camber effect) and this effect is more pronounced on the Z10 than on a 14D, mainly because the Z10 has a very wide tire (and the 14D has a narrow one).

On 4/26/2023 at 8:53 PM, rcgldr said:

He mentions it's a struggle with the Z10 on a very cambered surface as seen in the video.

It doesn't look like he has practiced this a lot.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Mono

[rcgldr]

5 minutes ago, Mono said:

It looks like he hasn't practice this a lot.

In the video, it's a bumpy cambered surface, which is causing the Z10 to wander a lot, along with some bouncing. If it was a smooth cambered surface, after the initial transition, the rider wouldn't have to make constant adjustments.

Edited April 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[Mono]

8 minutes ago, rcgldr said:

In the video, it's a bumpy cambered surface, which is causing the Z10 to wander a lot. If it was a smooth cambered surface, after the initial transition, the rider wouldn't have to make constant adjustments.

Sure, though not that bumpy after all, and it looks like he hasn't practiced this a lot. I have been practicing for a while riding on cambered cobblestone, also while putting the wheel into somewhat different tilt angles. It takes time and practice to get somewhat comfortable with this situation, at least in my personal experience.

Edited April 26, 2023 by Mono

[woke rider]

I have only been riding my Z10 for 6 months. I have traveled 300 miles. All of the roads are cambered here in my city, so you can imagine my frustration because my Z10 would never go straight. Then one day I noticed that I had learned how to go straight on the slope and that it had become subconscious. Then my Z10 valve came out so I started riding my 14D and to my surprise I had new improved riding style and it was so fun because I had been working out on the Z10, improving my straight line cambered abilities and strength. Then I switched back to Z10, transferred my 14D skills to Z10 and, I was like wow, because it was so much fun too. I want to say that there exists a skill set to riding the Z10 that doesn't come natural to learning on the 14D, yet greatly improves riding pleasure, and vice versa to the Z10. I think you would have to experience it to really know what I am talking about. But, I always felt like something was missing when I was learning the 14D, like I didn't have complete control. That's why I would suggest to a Newbie just learning, to do a few practice sessions going out of their way to learn how to ride straight on cambered pavement, because that skill has greatly improved my confidence and enjoyment on both wheels.

[rcgldr]

2 minutes ago, Mono said:

Sure, though not that bumpy after all, and it looks like he hasn't practiced this a lot. I have been practicing for a while riding on cambered cobblestone, also while putting the wheel into somewhat different tilt angles. It takes time and practice to get somewhat comfortable with this situation, at least in my personal experience.

It's bumpy enough to cause the Z10 to bounce (the dips causing mini-jumps). Cobblestones are bumpy but consistent, so the effect averages out. The surface in the video is not consistent, so the Z10 wanders. Another case would be a dirt path with a lot of ruts. This is one reason knobby tires are used for off road, since they are less sensitive to camber.

[rcgldr]

7 minutes ago, earthtwin said:

14D ...  cambered pavement

The 14D uses a narrow 2.125 inch tire. My V8F also uses a narrow 16 x 2.125 tire, and a cambered surface is not an issue (which Wrong Way mentions):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjD9sWQHoSA&t=7s

I wouldn't recommend a beginner start off on a cambered surface. Save that for after the person learns to ride.

Edited April 26, 2023 by rcgldr

[woke rider]

Hey, nice video rcdlgr! I think the V8 is a great wheel. I bet your neighbors think you are far out! I live in a senior apartment complex and all the little old ladies think I'm amazing, lol. I am developing my fan club. They are a lot friendlier and more inquisitive when they see that I'm wearing my helmet. :-/

rcdlgr opined, "I wouldn't recommend a beginner start off on a cambered surface. Save that for after the person learns to ride."

I respectfully disagree with you sir, learning to go straight on a slope is an extremely important skill that enables rider confidence and control.

Wrong Way is the best, I love all his videos. He's got a video where he does some cool tricks with the 14D here:

 

Edited April 26, 2023 by earthtwin
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[mrelwood]

 

2 hours ago, Mono said:

which is true for many claims people make,

...

I’m not interested in feeding ping-pong arguments and pointless bickering further, so I’ll skip most of your replies.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

I see, we have different perspectives then. The EUC without change of wardrobe is to me the most practical way of transport that I know of (by far) for all trips above 50m (I never walk to the next bakery) and below around 4-15km

For all trips? Let’s see… You need to buy a lot of groceries and birthday party accessories from a few shops for a big group. You need to buy anything larger than fits your backpack. It’s raining. It’s snowing. There’s a lot of snow in the ground. It’s freezing outside. You need to go shopping with your wife. You need to take your daughter to a soccer practice. You need to take your dog to the vet. Etc.

Besides, 15km is a very short trip. It’s very rare for me to make trips shorter than than even with an EUC.

 The forum member @Unventor rides to work with office work clothes, he just wears motorcycle pants and a jacket on top. (And of course a helmet.) No changes at the wardrobe.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

I say this after having lived it for more than six years now.

We seem to have started at the same time. But it shouldn’t be a surprise that our habits are different. People’s often are. That’s why you may think that most riders would only stroll 15km or shorter trips at 25km/h max, since that’s normal to you. How about going on a group ride some time though? To get a better understanding on how other riders use their EUCs.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Yet, going by a single example for EUCs (and, IIRC, the example of a stunt woman) you call this an "I don't know". We live in different worlds.

Like I said, she (Dawn) is currently one of the most profilic female EUC rider. Or do you disagree? And like I said, I personally don’t know if females are safer EUC riders or not. Do you disagree with that too?

The women I’ve seen in our group rides aren’t specifically more careful or safer riders. The only time our group has had to stop and wait because someone crashed and needed their wounds to be tended for, was a female rider. So from where I’m looking, it doesn’t seem that females are safer EUC riders than males.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

I suspect it is because people crash often in particular when they are beginners and moderately advanced

So you yourself say that “people crash often”, yet you seem to advocate for riding without gear. Do you not see the contradiction here?

2 hours ago, Mono said:

I suspect it's not because a statistically relevant number of people suffered severe head injuries while riding an EUC.

Of course not. Because almost every rider uses a helmet. The discussion was never about head injuries though. We wear gear to protect ourselves at many other spots as well.

 

2 hours ago, Mono said:

Or maybe the opposite, being as lunatic as to take up a new activity in public that is as dangerous as requiring wearing a helmet, often even a full face helmet...

Well, even the experienced rider called Mono said that EUC riders crash often, so… 

Maybe you haven’t quite noticed, but most riders seem to commonly hit 40-70km/h top speeds. And a huge part of riders seem to mainly ride much longer than 15km trips or tours. What’s normal to you isn’t normal to most other riders. That’s why your gear adverse tips aren’t suitable for most riders.

 

1 hour ago, earthtwin said:

Wrong Way is the best, I love all his videos.

He makes a lot of great content. But he does get all kinds of facts all wrong here and there, so don’t take his word as gospel.

[rcgldr]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

(Dawn) is currently one of the most prolific female EUC rider.

She pushes the limits more than most. In her videos, she states she has low sided on motorcycles more than once, which I assume was done during track days on a race track. 

[Mono]

15 hours ago, rcgldr said:

Cobblestones are bumpy but consistent, so the effect averages out.

I wouldn't describe it like that and I guess the averaging-out experience depends on the type of cobblestone. But sure, I practiced on various side sloped surfaces as each surface may come with their own surprise. Unsurprisingly, cobblestone is generally less forcing than most other surfaces and in this respect it is easier.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not interested in feeding ping-pong arguments and pointless bickering further

Going by your actions, you seem to be interested in the bait . True, these are mostly out-of-my-ass opinions from a mostly pretty ignorant person and nobody should care reading them , all good.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

How about going on a group ride some time though? To get a better understanding on how other riders use their EUCs.

Thanks for the advice, though I am pretty sure I have crossed path in real life with many more riders than you have (this year already about 200 by end of April) and only very, very few have been riding faster than 35km/h, to my estimate. About 70% wear a helmet, 20% a full face helmet, 30% no helmet (out of a 1000 or so). Even when asking big wheel riders, they tend to say that they don't ride faster than 40km/h, though I asked too few to make any representative claim. So thanks, I have done a little bit of homework to understand other riders habits even to the extent that I suspect that my view of the average rider (which I am not) should be closer to the ground truth than yours, if only by the nature of my environment.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Besides, 15km is a very short trip.

To all I know, the vast majority of individual transport trips is below 15km. This may be on a shorter trip side for EUC trips, but this we don't actually know, we don't have the statistics. It's pretty clear that people post less often about their short trips to the bakery, and more often shredding through the woods until the battery was empty.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s why you may think that most riders would only stroll 15km or shorter trips

I know that I am a minority poster in this forum. I can sense that every time I am reading and posting, no need to remind me. I am just saying that for trips below 4-15km an EUC is my preferred choice of transport while it isn't for longer trips, just so you know this preference exists too.

I am however also pretty sure that the majority of the remaining population, outside this EUC forum, uses PLEVs mainly for shorter trips, most of the time even less than 10km. Even the median car trip is shorter than 10km, IIRC, which is all-in-all rather unpromising data to support the idea that the median EUC trip is actually longer than 15km. Of course, leisure trips are probably longer than transportation trips on average and I was talking about transportation preferences.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Maybe you haven’t quite noticed, but most riders seem to commonly hit 40-70km/h top speeds.

For sure many riders do, yet how did you figure that this is most riders? I wouldn't be surprised if even in this forum the majority rarely or never exceeds 40km/h, for the reasons given above.

12 hours ago, mrelwood said:

But he does get all kinds of facts all wrong here and there, so don’t take his word as gospel.

True, unfortunately.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Mono

[mrelwood]

 

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

very few have been riding faster than 35km/h, to my estimate.

On average, or peak top speed?

 There are obviously huge differences per country, since the riding circumstances and environments can be so different. You don’t mention your country in your profile, and I don’t know if you have an extensive bicycle infrastructure, or if you even ride on the streets with cars like Americans are forced to.

Our group rides always peak at around 45-50km/h, and there are always a few who flat out every now and then to get their fix. On this forum there seem to be only a small handful of riders that never pass 35km/h. There seems to be much more riders that surpass 50km/h at least momentarily. Again, these are not statistics, they are my impressions on how it has seemed to me.

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

About 70% wear a helmet

So a vast majority. For our group rides it’s 100%.

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

Even when asking big wheel riders, they tend to say that they generally don't ride faster than 40km/h

“Generally” is a very different measure than the maximum top speed they tend to reach that I was talking about. Though I would’ve guessed that it would’ve been 50km/h, but somewhere around there anyway.

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

To all I know, the vast majority of individual transport trips is below 15km. This may be on a shorter trip side for EUC trips, but this we don't actually know, we don't have the statistics.

There are some stats published by EUCw. I’m not sure if by a single trip you refer to (or is generally referred to) the distance until you step off the wheel, or if it’s the length of the complete tour until you get back home or wherever you intend to go. I usually combine my trips so that I visit several places on one go even if my single riding distances may be relatively short. Same goes for driving.

 Why does this matter though? If we are talking about the need for safety gear, I don’t see much difference whether you stop at a bakery for a minute in between or not. You’re not changing or taking off your gear for that. The risk for accidents comes from the total distance you travel. (And of course where and how you travel etc.)

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

I am just saying that for trips below 4-15km an EUC is my preferred choice of transport

That’s a whole different thing altogether. I’m sure that’s true for you.

28 minutes ago, Mono said:

how did you figure that this is most riders?

Like I said, that’s how it has seemed based on our group rides, chatting with other riders, global Telegram chats, and this forum. I haven’t met 200 riders this year, but I am quite active in the community.

 The manufacturers didn’t start to up the max speeds a few years ago because a few guys asked for it. There is obviously a very large market for super fast wheels. It wouldn’t make any sense to make wheels that can be ridden at 80-90km/h for people that never exceed 40km/h. It would be a horrible waste of resources and it would result in way excessively heavy and expensive wheels.

That’s exactly why I haven’t bought a new wheel: They haven’t made wheels for mid-speed riders like me anymore. I’m not going to pay for and lift a 90km/h wheel when a 50km/h wheel would be enough for me.

[Mono]

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

You don’t mention your country in your profile, and I don’t know if you have an extensive bicycle infrastructure, or if you even ride on the streets with cars like Americans are forced to.

I ride in several countries and everywhere, on streets, cycle lines, sidewalks, where ever I see fit, while I avoid heavy and in particular fast car traffic when I can (most of the time I can). I ride mostly like a casual cyclist, only that I use the sidewalk more often.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Our group rides

Still strange to me that you think a group ride or a highly selective group of people on Telegram is more representative for "an average rider" than any place in the world where one can just sit around and see EUCs passing by (maybe I didn't mention my methodology of meeting fellow riders, so here we go). The latter is pretty close to a representative sample from a relative large pool of riders while the former is extremely selective.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

“Generally” is a very different measure than the maximum top speed

Sorry, I "misspoke", I did but didn't mean to write "generally".

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Why does this matter though?

You were starting it by writing that 15km is a short trip suggesting that I am an outlier (and later that I should go to a group ride to meet real people and better understand the average EUC rider), so I can't really say why you brought it up. I think the idea was to marginalize my perceptions and/or behavior.

In your defense, average trip size is most likely correlated with speed, so it does provide some indirect information.

As for myself, I just like to ground myself in reality and average trip length is one aspect of reality which is well documented and helps to understand the moving behavior and preference of people.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t see much difference whether you stop at a bakery for a minute in between or not. You’re not changing or taking off your gear for that.

Good point, my trip length to the next bakery is then actually 250m, double the size I had thought of. I'd still think I will take the wheel for any distance above 50m, even if I stay at the destination for an hour or two, but I don't have a lot of empirical evidence to show for it as almost none of my trips are that short.

5 hours ago, mrelwood said:

That’s a whole different thing altogether. I’m sure that’s true for you.

IIRC that's the very thing you started debating me on: my personal preference when to use an EUC and how this is not at all representative.

Edited April 27, 2023 by Mono

[woke rider]

3 hours ago, Mono said:

For sure many riders do, yet how did you figure that this is most riders? I wouldn't be surprised if even in this forum the majority rarely or never exceeds 40km/h, for the reasons given above.

My alarm is set for 15mph because that's the speed limit here for scooters. We just got the Bird scooters last year. One time a detective asked me what my top speed was, he was just walking in public. The detective just told me to be careful. I live very close to the police department. I ride past the PD all the time, so I'm sure they have been talking about me. I'm allowed on the sidewalks, but pedestrians have the right of way. I have to obey all traffic laws. We get a lot of freedoms here in the Northwest.

So, for another very important newbie tidbit: Find out what the law is before you buy your PEV. Or be willing to move to a city that is scooter-friendly. I would never live in a city that isn't scooter-friendly. I remember the first time I saw tourists having a blast on those Birds while they visited San Antonio. I wanted to ride one so bad. I did see an older man crash really hard with no gear on while he was riding around with his adult son. The older man got right back up, but he fell hard! He must have injured himself.

Some cities have very quirky scooter laws, like Fort Collins, CO. When I lived in Fort Collins which has Bird scooters, one time I rode past a ranger, intentionally on a sidewalked public trail, and the ranger, who was looking for homeless people sleeping underneath the bridge, informed me that all of his sidewalked public trails in the city were illegal for me, that the only PEV's allowed were electric bicycles. That just wasn't right. But the ranger just didn't want me to ride in front of him, he didn't want to ticket me or take my wheel away. lol.

Edited April 27, 2023 by earthtwin
more info

[Clem604]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

He makes a lot of great content. But he does get all kinds of facts all wrong here and there, so don’t take his word as gospel

This 100%. Sometimes Wrong Way, sometimes Wrong Facts

[redsnapper]

On 4/25/2023 at 10:17 AM, Mono said:

sure, that's true, in particular when walking or jogging or running or going down stairs or climbing up a ladder...

Car accidents also produce occasionally severe and fatal head injuries, probably half of which could be prevented by wearing a helmet.

the relative risk of serious injury while walking, jogging etc is much much smaller (almost nil) because you are not dependant on a piece of tech to stay upright (or rather - your brain/body tech has evolved over a very long period in order to keep you alive). A car provides a protective shield along with other safeguards (seat belts,airbags,etc). I think most people would consider it a little extreme to wear protection for the activities you mention because the relative risk of injury is much lower than  it is for riding EUC. A fall without protection onto pave from an EUC moving at 15mph (slow by most EUC standards) is likely to present pretty serious risks to the rider... Is it your contention that because it would be foolish to wear protection for these common place activities, it is also foolish to wear minimal protection for EUC? Or do I misunderstand your meaning?

[Mono]

17 hours ago, redsnapper said:

the relative risk of serious injury while walking, jogging etc is much much smaller (almost nil) because you are not dependant on a piece of tech to stay upright (or rather - your brain/body tech has evolved over a very long period in order to keep you alive).

[...]

I think most people would consider it a little extreme to wear protection for the activities you mention because the relative risk of injury is much lower than  it is for riding EUC.

This is decided in the end only by data, not by thinking hard about it. You can't possibly know any of these risks without referring to data. If the following is your prediction for the cases where we have data, you gain a little credibility to try to make a prediction for EUCs: write down what are the fatality risks for (a) walking, (b) cycling and (c) driving first and then read on. The fatality risk for walking and cycling is per hour practically identical. It's also 4-5 times higher in the US than in the Netherlands (despite Dutch people never wearing a helmet). The approximate number is 1 death in 1 million hours in the US. The risk for driving in a car per hour is in the same ballpark too (two times lower). So in all cases, walking, cycling, driving, you either think you need additional protection to mitigate the same risk per hour or you don't. Motorcycling is about 10 times more dangerous (though I can't quite say what percentage of riders wore protective gear in these data and I also don't know how relevant it is). For riding an EUC, nobody knows the risk even if they try very hard to pretend they would (and riding EUC does not equal to riding EUC, that is, the motorcycle-type riders might have a considerably higher risk even with gear than the casual cycling type riders without). I would be delighted if you come up with the collected data to be the first to have an estimated number.

Source: https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-of-dying-doing-what-we-love

17 hours ago, redsnapper said:

Is it your contention that because it would be foolish to wear protection for these common place activities, it is also foolish to wear minimal protection for EUC?

I'd say it is foolish to discuss protective gear without specifying the scenario, to make strong claims about risks without referring to data, or to use "this can happen (at any speed)" as an argument for anything without relating events to their (estimated) probabilities.

Low probabilities are difficult to navigate, so I don't think it makes sense to say any behavior trying to mitigating them, or not mitigating them, is foolish. Wear whatever you like, I just oppose absolute prescriptive claims like it's a must to wear... and there can't possible a negative effect of wearing... The main thing which is very clear from the data and logical from the mechanisms is that risk is highly correlated with speed. That is, the faster you go, the more inclined you should be to wear protection, and the slower you go the less relevant it is. That is, for beginners, it's rather not (while shin protection can be highly relevant for comfort which can be highly relevant for advancing quicker). Finally, I'd consider it as a problem to advise gear to beginners because they may speed up to 30km/h in their first session, instead of advising them to never ever go that fast in their first 10-30 hours of riding.

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Mono

[mrelwood]

4 minutes ago, Mono said:

The fatality risk for walking and cycling is per hour practically identical.

Talking about fatality stats in reference to using protective gear while riding is a pretty extreme of a jump. I’ve read only about one single fatal EUC crash that didn’t include a car. (A helmet would’ve probably saved him.) But I’ve read about maybe a few hundred crashes that did result in physical injury. And those are what the gear is intended to mitigate. For relevant stats, find ones that represent physical injury, not death.

 I could personally live with dying in a EUC crash or any other accident. Such things happen. But I don’t want to live for months or more crippled with damage that could’ve been prevented with wearing a different jacket, different pants, different gloves, and a different hat.

13 minutes ago, Mono said:

the faster you go, the more inclined you should be to wear protection, and the slower you go the less relevant it is. That is, for beginners, it's rather not.

Despite beginners crashing in some way being more probable than not?

 Are you against of people padding up their new wheels at the beginning of the learning process?

[Mono]

48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Talking about fatality stats in reference to using protective gear while riding is a pretty extreme of a jump.

It's the usual proxy we use to judge risk, because it is much easier to determine and classify than injury. Sorry if it's too extreme for you 

48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I could personally live with dying in a EUC crash

That's a funny phrase 

48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Despite beginners crashing in some way being more probable than not?

I suspect the probability for a beginner to have a life changing injury during learning is very low, like 100 or maybe even 1000 times lower than riding around on an EUC at 25mph and I don't think any gear could make the latter probability as low as the former. Just some random guesses.

Cyclists don't get severely injured because the lose balance and crash when they learn to ride. That's just not a thing, AFAIK. Cyclists die because they crash into a car (or rather, the car into them) or they crash at higher speeds into anything else (like a tree or...). I have no good reason to believe that start riding a bicycle is totally different from start riding an EUC. Jason argued that an EUC is safer, because it's easier to jump off... and yeah, if you start with a 50kg wheel it probably increases the risk somewhat significantly.

48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Are you against of people padding up their new wheels at the beginning of the learning process?

I am against very few things, one of which is making strong behavioral prescriptions without strong evidence. Out of my head, most of the arguments I made against wearing gear do not apply to padding up the wheel, some may even invert. So the answer is no, I am not against padding pretty much anything if it doesn't affect me, in which case I am sometimes a little more picky.

Edited April 28, 2023 by Mono

[Cerbera]

36 minutes ago, Mono said:

That is, the faster you go, the more inclined you should be to wear protection, and the slower you go the less relevant it is.

No, I don't think that's correct. At higher speeds you are more likely to slide or tumble it out, which tends to dissipate the initial impact a lot more than the slower-speed type of falls, which are more in the order of the 'rotate and faceplant', so one giant impact with no time to react and crumple. I want a helmet as much in those 'walking speed' situations as I do at 50 kph. Wristguards are also what I would consider essential, from the very moment you step on a wheel and every time thereafter, regardless of ride duration OR speed. I hyperextended both wrists during a 15 second ride on a lowly Airwheel down in Dover docks which prevented me working for 3 months. It was the only time I had not bothered to wear wrist guards. And I felt like a massive dick afterwards, knowing I had them with me and could have avoided any injury at all by just putting them on. A lesson was learned, reinforced by 3 months of nagging pain every time I tried to do anything with my hands, which was all the time !

Sure, it might be a bit OTT to don a full bodysuit and all the bells and whistles for a 250m quick run to the shops, but even though you'd be exceptionally unlucky to get a cut-out in that tiny distance, it is still a possibility, as is some pillock in a car driving into you, and every bit of kit you wear lessens the amount stuff hurts if it does !

Edited April 28, 2023 by Cerbera

[Mono]

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

No, I don't think that's correct.

2 hours ago, Mono said:

This is decided in the end only by data, not by thinking hard about it.

data=samples of a size considerably larger than one.

1 hour ago, Cerbera said:

which are more in the order of the 'rotate and faceplant', so one giant impact with no time to react and crumple

if this is a problem you have at walking speed, then my comment would be the following: thinking on how to work on this problem is time way better spent than thinking on which gear to put. That would be a good example of "gear preventing additional efforts of prevention". Solving this problem probably mitigates many other risks too IMHO.

As I didn't have a teacher, I faceplanted as a beginner too (not literally, my face is fine, but figuratively). Yet, I'd go so far to say that it's absolutely and totally unnecessary to faceplant at walking speed as a mildly advanced rider ever, and it should be the responsibility of a trainer to make sure this won't ever happen to their apprentices (if they spent enough time with them).

Edited April 28, 2023 by Mono

[The Brahan Seer]

Not aimed at anyone in particular. I'm noticing a lot in life that people seem to have learned to think in absolutes lately. Everything is thought of in very black and white terms, right or wrong when in reality most things are a shade of grey.

Another (and probably the main but not only) reason speed is a contributor to accidents and increases the risk exponentially is the reaction time your brain has is a lot less to correct the situation. 

If you are riding normally on a known surface at walking speed then the odds of falling down is incredibly low* even if the wheel cuts out. We have all experienced losing balance on the wheel and we just step out of it (its a reflex action pretty much). 

Evolution has also made us very good at surviving falls at our fastest running speed because the weak versions of us died out when we hit the ground whether due to injury or death.

Perhaps we can all agree that its very good practice to wear ATGATT but be mindful it could increase your risk taking if you have that kind of personality but if you haven't then thats great also if you have another type of personality* and if you don't mind the risk and a bit of pain sometimes then its not essential.

* and that you are fit and healthy with no underlying health conditions that could effect your balance etc etc etc

 

Check out this guy he rarely wears gear and his injuries show it but he just doesn't seem to care, amazing..

 

 

 

[Cerbera]

52 minutes ago, Mono said:

if this is a problem you have at walking speed, then my comment would be the following: thinking on how to work on this problem is time way better spent than thinking on which gear to put. Solving this problem probably mitigates many other risks too IMHO.

It's not, and wasn't particularly, even when I was learning all those years ago. I am talking about the risks that are outside rider control, which I acknowledge are unlikely, but still omnipresent.

[Mono]

2 minutes ago, Cerbera said:

It's not, and wasn't particularly, even when I was learning all those years ago. I am talking about the risks that are outside rider control, which I acknowledge are unlikely, but still omnipresent.

I can't think of any outside risk that could make me faceplant when riding at walking speed. Help me out!

[Cerbera]

1 hour ago, Mono said:

I can't think of any outside risk that could make me faceplant when riding at walking speed. Help me out!

OK. Here's a few possibilities.

1. Dog barks in close proximity to you, but from the left, or behind you - you instinctively turn to look, and fail to avoid a giant pothole in the path in front of you that wasn't there yesterday !

2. An electric car you don't hear coming pulls out a driveway you are crossing, at some speed (the car, not you), side sledging you off your wheel and into their path. Luck alone if they stop after that before they run you over as well !

3. Chinese shoddy engineering and QC mean a motor wire chooses that moment to pop off the board. Don't laugh - my MS3 did that to me for no appreciable reason whatsoever doing the rather easy / flat and unchallenging last 50 yards of a 7 mile round trip with no previous problems ! I fell on my face with zero time to react. But I was ATGATT by then, so no injury at all in that instance - there the TSG Pass WAS enough to save my head in a way I don't  trust it to do any longer, hence why I swapped out for an MC one.

4. 'Hilarious' youths kick a football at your wheel. Their aim is high and it twats you on the head instead. And over you go...

My point is - it's the things you don't see coming that get you, and if you have the gear, you are simply more prepared for the unforeseen than you are without it; simple as that !  

I'm going to the shops now for milk, cat food and tea bags - it will take me 6 mins to wheel there on the Master, but 20 minutes to gear up beforehand. I consider that time well spent, though I am not expecting to crash. And if I do crash, I bet my protected hands, wrists and brain will still work well enough to type about it later !

Edited April 28, 2023 by Cerbera