Can't accelerate past 40mph on my EX.N -- why?

[EMA]

i usually ride in medium, soft it's good only for very low speed, hard is super stable and easy to push (at least on my wheels)

you just need to get used to it, it's not as hard as you think, once you "click" you'll find that this wheel get speed like no one

 

 

[Skeptikos]

8 hours ago, EMA said:

you just need to get used to it, it's not as hard as you think, once you "click" you'll find that this wheel get speed like no one

I've had this wheel for 6 months!

[Mayhem]

8 hours ago, EMA said:

 

i usually ride in medium, soft it's good only for very low speed, hard is super stable and easy to push (at least on my wheels)

 

Riding modes are all personal preference. While one person may think it’s better for x,y,z someone else will come up with a counter argument. So to say a certain mode is only good for a specific speed or task is far from accurate.
 

Plenty of threads have gone round and round with this so no point in having this debate again. Just stating the obvious

[Tawpie]

I've heard people say that you kind of have to figure out how to get Sherman to go really fast, and that KS wheels must be 'coaxed' up to full speed by pushing then easing back then pushing some more.

Maybe there's a trick?

[Dan Hillary]

I'm on an EXN HT right now and rode a high speed for ~1000 miles earlier this year. My first day on this wheel I couldn't get it to go above 25, and I figured out it was all my foot placement. If you slide your feet forward such that your toes are off the pedals while having as much (or as little) contact with your power pads as you want you'll be able to go faster. It sounds like you've been struggling with this for awhile though, it would be shocking if you hadn't tried this already. You're in NY, is there anyone nearby to show you? If nothing else, take some photos of your setup for us.

 

Edit: Consider that it might also be mental, especially if you're monitoring your speed visually. I had a hard time going over 28 on my first MSP after spending 6 months on a 16X that would beep and tilt back at that speed. Now if I get stuck at any speed I continue doing what I'm doing, but also push my arms forward like I'm reaching for a basketball or something. That allows for pretty precise control of speed by using your hands/arms as weights shifting away from your center of gravity.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Dan Hillary

[Bizra6ot]

@Skeptikos You have three options

Flash the old FW which does not have this feature

Switch the front and rear lights and ride it reversed

Eat more tacos 

[EMA]

2 hours ago, Mayhem said:

Riding modes are all personal preference. While one person may think it’s better for x,y,z someone else will come up with a counter argument. So to say a certain mode is only good for a specific speed or task is far from accurate.
 

Plenty of threads have gone round and round with this so no point in having this debate again. Just stating the obvious

i'm not debating the modes, i described how they feels on EXN 

medium has more swing and require more confidence to push top speed, it also rise the pedals more compared to hard 

3 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

I've had this wheel for 6 months!

really ? that's weird 

[Skeptikos]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:30 PM, Tawpie said:

I've heard people say that you kind of have to figure out how to get Sherman to go really fast, and that KS wheels must be 'coaxed' up to full speed by pushing then easing back then pushing some more.

I haven't noticed any issue like that on my 16X. The top speed seems effortless to hit, don't even need to touch any pads for it.

On 8/22/2022 at 1:07 PM, Dan Hillary said:

If you slide your feet forward such that your toes are off the pedals while having as much (or as little) contact with your power pads as you want you'll be able to go faster. It sounds like you've been struggling with this for awhile though, it would be shocking if you hadn't tried this already.

That's my default foot placement on all wheels. The palm of my foot is at the front edge of the pedal. It's the easiest position for me.

On 8/22/2022 at 1:07 PM, Dan Hillary said:

You're in NY, is there anyone nearby to show you?

There are actually a lot of EX.N riders in Albany. I'm not sure what they're going to show me (I've been riding longer than most of them). But if nothing else I think it'd be fun to swap EX.N's and see what happens.

On 8/22/2022 at 1:07 PM, Dan Hillary said:

Consider that it might also be mental, especially if you're monitoring your speed visually. I had a hard time going over 28 on my first MSP after spending 6 months on a 16X that would beep and tilt back at that speed. Now if I get stuck at any speed I continue doing what I'm doing, but also push my arms forward like I'm reaching for a basketball or something. That allows for pretty precise control of speed by using your hands/arms as weights shifting away from your center of gravity.

Well, that sounds a lot more physical than mental to be honest.

One detail I haven't mentioned is that the road where I'm testing this has bumps that throw me off a little. So I'm not at full tilt continuously for like half a mile. But still it's a nice wide road with long-ish straight sections, and I'd be surprised if something so minor is enough to make 40+mph impossible.

On 8/22/2022 at 1:07 PM, Dan Hillary said:

If nothing else, take some photos of your setup for us.

Here, you can drool over my grizzla pads and my cool bumpers from @GoGeorgeGo

Spoiler

I expect that looking at the pads is going to be about as useful as reading tea leaves.

 

Anyway, I moved the pads (after taking those pictures) into a more aggressive position, so that I can easily push into them once I start leaning forward. And moved them upward too so I have better leverage. And then I put the wheel back into hard mode, and ... no, nothing happened, I'm right back at 40mph 😂. Might get some bruises on my shins from pushing so hard though. I'll give the EX.N this, it's persistent.

[Skeptikos]

11 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

One detail I haven't mentioned is that the road where I'm testing this has bumps that throw me off a little. So I'm not at full tilt continuously for like half a mile. But still it's a nice wide road with long-ish straight sections, and I'd be surprised if something so minor is enough to make 40+mph impossible.

Maybe that'll be my next test, I'll try a smoother road

[techyiam]

22 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

I'm right back at 40mph

Is this indicated or GPS 40 mph?

Also, have you ever gone faster than 40 mph on any euc?

It can't be your EX.N lacking in torque, otherwise you will making a different kind of post.

So, it should come down to aerodynamics or user input, unless you have been so unlucky than each time you make your attempt, a head wind was present. 🙂

When you are making your speed run, have tried various stances, including those that mimic some aspects of a ski jumper going down a ramp?

Edited August 27, 2022 by techyiam

[Mrd777]

9 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

40+mph impossible.

Also, there definitely is a wall on most euc’s at 40 mph, the noise and drag from the wind contributes to the effort. Having a full face motorcycle helmet really helps with all this.. at theses speeds it's certainly a good idea too.

[Skeptikos]

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Is this indicated or GPS 40 mph?

The EUC World display

8 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Also, have you ever gone faster than 40 mph on any euc?

No. My naive expectation was that if I just leaned forward hard enough I would go faster.

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

So, it should come down to aerodynamics or user input, unless you have been so unlucky than each time you make your attempt, a head wind was present. 🙂

I can rule that out-- I'm riding on a 40mph loop, going around both directions.

 

5 minutes ago, techyiam said:

user input

This and "rider input" are quickly becoming my most hated phrases on this forum. Doesn't explain anything, and makes it sound like I might be accidentally riding backward or something. Can we please replace that with something more specific and less condescending

 

 

[techyiam]

33 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

I can rule that out-- I'm riding on a 40mph loop, going around both directions

Useful to know that you have ruled that out.

33 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

This and "rider input" are quickly becoming my most hated phrases on this forum. Doesn't explain anything, and makes it sound like I might be accidentally riding backward or something. Can we please replace that with something more specific and less condescending

I didn't know that people would take it that way.

To accelerate, the propulsion force must exceed the drag or resistive forces. User input directly affects the propulsion force. If you feel that you are effectively using the power pads, then the other option is to look to at reducing the aerodynamic drag. I would say reducing aerodynamic drag is vitally important. 

Edited August 27, 2022 by techyiam

[UtahRider]

5 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

The EUC World display

No. My naive expectation was that if I just leaned forward hard enough I would go faster.

I can rule that out-- I'm riding on a 40mph loop, going around both directions.

 

This and "rider input" are quickly becoming my most hated phrases on this forum. Doesn't explain anything, and makes it sound like I might be accidentally riding backward or something. Can we please replace that with something more specific and less condescending

 

 

Really don’t think anyone’s being condescending or trying to hurt your feelings. They’re giving their free time trying to help with the issue you posted. If you don’t want that person’s advice, a simple, polite “thank you” and move on is all you need to do. Less time writing a reply, too. Just friendly advice trying to keep posts light instead of, well not light.

[Planemo]

I remember writing a long time back, when I had my MSX, how far over the front of the wheel I was when I first hit 35mph+. I really didn't notice it until I looked down briefly...the wheel was waay behind my chest/head line. I was really surprised. I still find 40mph difficult now even on the Sherman and it's one reason why I don't need a faster wheel. But then theres plenty of riders who appear to effortlessly cruise at 40+. All's I'm saying is, some of us may simply be better at leaning/getting over the front/finding ways to reduce drag than others. I'm not saying this is the problem you have personally, only that I, as another rider with a fair few miles under my belt on wheels capable of 40+mph, don't find a non-seated 40mph 'easy' either.

[Skeptikos]

9 hours ago, UtahRider said:

Really don’t think anyone’s being condescending or trying to hurt your feelings. They’re giving their free time trying to help with the issue you posted. If you don’t want that person’s advice, a simple, polite “thank you” and move on is all you need to do. Less time writing a reply, too. Just friendly advice trying to keep posts light instead of, well not light.

Oh sure, like this: "You just told everyone I don't know where to stand on the pedals after riding for more than a year. Thank you." 😂

No, look, I'm just trying to steer the discussion away from vague and practically useless statements about "rider input". Some of which also happen to come off as very condescending, regardless of intention.

 

7 hours ago, Planemo said:

I remember writing a long time back, when I had my MSX, how far over the front of the wheel I was when I first hit 35mph+. I really didn't notice it until I looked down briefly...the wheel was waay behind my chest/head line. I was really surprised. I still find 40mph difficult now even on the Sherman and it's one reason why I don't need a faster wheel. But then theres plenty of riders who appear to effortlessly cruise at 40+. All's I'm saying is, some of us may simply be better at leaning/getting over the front/finding ways to reduce drag than others. I'm not saying this is the problem you have personally, only that I, as another rider with a fair few miles under my belt on wheels capable of 40+mph, don't find a non-seated 40mph 'easy' either.

Yeah, at this point we've established that many riders have difficulty at these speeds. So it seems like part of my issue was just having the wrong expectations-- after hearing all the hype about the EX.N I thought it would be a lot more responsive, and quite easy to get up to 45mph. And my reference point is the 16X which I'm sure badly skews my perspective.

[techyiam]

On 8/28/2022 at 7:41 AM, Skeptikos said:

Oh sure, like this: "You just told everyone I don't know where to stand on the pedals after riding for more than a year. Thank you." 😂

No, look, I'm just trying to steer the discussion away from vague and practically useless statements about "rider input". Some of which also happen to come off as very condescending, regardless of intention.

That isn't how others may see it. 

When someone tries to help another, of whom are strangers, there is the usual initial ruling out that needs to go through to narrow down the possible causes or reasons.

And in the ruling out process, using broad category terms like user input, aerodynamic drag reduction, presence of head wind, potential issues with euc, and others is useful. 

Of course, the alternative is to simply post videos of your 40+ mph attempts. Pointers to questions ratio may improve dramatically. 

Edited August 30, 2022 by techyiam

[Skeptikos]

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

That isn't how others may see it.

It doesn't matter. I'm the one asking for advice and it's how I see it. It's rude to bring it up after I already explained that it's not helpful.

1 hour ago, techyiam said:

Of course, the alternative is to simply post videos of your 40+ mph attempts.

I'm not a youtuber-- you'll either get a shaky video of my feet or a split second of me riding past at 38mph. Not clear what anyone could do with that. But more importantly, I already clearly described what I'm doing, so you don't need a video.

 

 

Anyway, with a silly amount of forward pedal angle, and on a smoother road, and with a stomach-churning forward lean, I'm able to hit 46 in hard mode. And I stopped there because I don't want to faceplant.

So, turns out the actually useful answer is not user input. Or aerodynamics. Just like I told people (probably 4 different times) from the first comments. Neener neener, you guys should have listened to me 😜😜😜😜😜

After testing out about a dozen different issues, it seems like if you're lighter you just have to calibrate the wheel with more forward lean. And that's pretty much the whole issue.

I ended up with a very noticeable amount of forward lean. Didn't measure it, but I'm guessing around 10-15°. And now, what do you know, this is the fast wheel everyone has been describing.

 

 

Imagine being an experienced rider trying to debug a stubbornly unresponsive wheel, and strangers jump in to insist that it has to be "user input" and demand video to prove I know how to lean. Yeah, of course I'm going to be a little sassy about it afterward.

Anyway, sass aside, I do appreciate the help. It helped me think things through and narrow down the possibilities. Plus we revealed that this is a pretty common issue, which is helpful to know. I hadn't seen this discussed before.

[GoGeorgeGo]

5 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

It doesn't matter. I'm the one asking for advice and it's how I see it. It's rude to bring it up after I already explained that it's not helpful.

I'm not a youtuber-- you'll either get a shaky video of my feet or a split second of me riding past at 38mph. Not clear what anyone could do with that. But more importantly, I already clearly described what I'm doing, so you don't need a video.

 

 

Anyway, with a silly amount of forward pedal angle, and on a smoother road, and with a stomach-churning forward lean, I'm able to hit 46 in hard mode. And I stopped there because I don't want to faceplant.

So, turns out the actually useful answer is not user input. Or aerodynamics. Just like I told people (probably 4 different times) from the first comments. Neener neener, you guys should have listened to me 😜😜😜😜😜

After testing out about a dozen different issues, it seems like if you're lighter you just have to calibrate the wheel with more forward lean. And that's pretty much the whole issue.

I ended up with a very noticeable amount of forward lean. Didn't measure it, but I'm guessing around 10-15°. And now, what do you know, this is the fast wheel everyone has been describing.

 

 

Imagine being an experienced rider trying to debug a stubbornly unresponsive wheel, and strangers jump in to insist that it has to be "user input" and demand video to prove I know how to lean. Yeah, of course I'm going to be a little sassy about it afterward.

Anyway, sass aside, I do appreciate the help. It helped me think things through and narrow down the possibilities. Plus we revealed that this is a pretty common issue, which is helpful to know. I hadn't seen this discussed before.

if you try a softer mode you will find it easier to hit high speeds as well. Hard mode requires a lot more leverage to get out infront of. I used to ride the EXN on soft mode, loved it. I now ride my EX20S on medium mode and effortlessly hit 40 mph on it (thanks to my height and belly im sure lol)

i also find shooting my arms out in front of me, like im trying to swim underwater, has a significant impact on breaking the drag factor and can shoot me forward an extra couple miles per hour when i want to hit a little turbo boost. 

But softer ride modes is the real key to getting a fluid effortless acceleration and top speed. It can take some getting used to at first but once you get used to it, hard mode just feels awful. i would only ride hard mode if i was riding aggressive offroad

[GoGeorgeGo]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:58 AM, EMA said:

i usually ride in medium, soft it's good only for very low speed, hard is super stable and easy to push (at least on my wheels)

you just need to get used to it, it's not as hard as you think, once you "click" you'll find that this wheel get speed like no one

 

 

i totally disagree, i used to rip the EXN 40+ on soft mode. my top speed was 47. i hated trying to ride fast on hard mode, it requires so much more effort. Soft mode just lets you gently lean forward and rip

[techyiam]

48 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I also find shooting my arms out in front of me, like im trying to swim underwater, has a significant impact on breaking the drag factor and can shoot me forward an extra couple miles per hour when i want to hit a little turbo boost. 

Is your torso orientation more horizontally or more vertically? 

When you say your arms are shot out in front, are they oriented horizontally, regardless of the orientation of the torso?

When I read your underwater analogy, I am picturing your torso and arms oriented horizontally.

[Cerbera]

I quite like the 'longboard pose' for maximising aerodynamics. So that's arms held behind your back (not ideal for crashes, but you have to commit), head down, and your spine curved almost horizontally from the waist, so your helmet funnels the air over the top of you and along your back, and you are around half the height you would be standing normally on the wheel. MUCH less air resistance. If you combine that with a hard forward lean, and relatively straight legs you communicate power to pedals most effectively. No disrespect to previous suggestions, but I would imagine it's quite hard to ride about with your arms out in front of you without looking like a right plonker, or at least like a zombie on crack, so I think it might be preferable in that respect too !

Further speed can be got by gripping the body of the wheel with your inner legs, bending the knees slightly and literally pushing the shell forwards, which gives a fractionally less dangerous alternative to grabbing the handle and wrenching that forwards instead, which I see some people do, though I don't like that because it forces your balance off-centre, which is another thing that can go wrong quite quickly at higher speeds, see 'the wobbles'...

Edited August 29, 2022 by Cerbera

[EMA]

7 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

i totally disagree, i used to rip the EXN 40+ on soft mode. my top speed was 47. i hated trying to ride fast on hard mode, it requires so much more effort. Soft mode just lets you gently lean forward and rip

do you have an early batch ? maybe green board ?

your soft is probably way different from mine

[yoos]

Perhaps this video will be helpful: a light rider [Alexa -- the person behind euc.market and "Alexa" branded accessories - seats, pads etc] commuting on her EX.N effortlessly. She hits 45+mph quite a few times throughout the video. First half of the video is accompanied by her 2000km review in Russian, second half is pure riding footage. She mentions that positioning your upper body sideways helps cutting through the air. 

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by yoos
wording

[Bizra6ot]

@yoos There is also the video Exn/Master they are riding at 50, but I think she is on the first Exn with the green motherboard so og FW, pedals do not rise when accelerating  

edit but I approve of her help in positioning 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Bizra6ot