Can't accelerate past 40mph on my EX.N -- why?

[Skeptikos]

On my EX.N, where I've turned off every tiltback option I can find, I get to the point where I'm hanging over the front of the wheel and digging into the power pads. And I can just barely, barely hit 40mph.

I tested and confirmed that the speed limit option in EUC World is off. In the Begode app the tiltback option is off. So I don't understand why the wheel is still pushing back against me.

Do people who understand Begode wheels have any suggestions to help me debug this? I feel like I've tried everything 3 times at this point and I'm getting nowhere.

[UtahRider]

2 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

On my EX.N, where I've turned off every tiltback option I can find, I get to the point where I'm hanging over the front of the wheel and digging into the power pads. And I can just barely, barely hit 40mph.

I tested and confirmed that the speed limit option in EUC World is off. In the Begode app the tiltback option is off. So I don't understand why the wheel is still pushing back against me.

Do people who understand Begode wheels have any suggestions to help me debug this? I feel like I've tried everything 3 times at this point and I'm getting nowhere.

Do you have the c38 or c30 motor? If c38, you probably hit top speed. If c30 motor then it’s something else but I don’t know what.

[Skeptikos]

It's the high speed model. Should hit 45mph at least. But even if I'm hitting top speed, there shouldn't be tiltback if I turn it off, right? My understanding was that you could just keep going until you overlean and wipe out, basically. This wheel is pushing back enough that I'm doing Michael Jackson moves trying to get it above 37mph, I feel pretty ridiculous doing it.

[Planemo]

37mph sounds about bang on for the max tiltback speed setting. Are you 100% sure that it's off?! Don't forget that data only goes one way, so it could be showing as 'off' on EUCW/Begode app but isn't. I would try turning it off/on/off again.

To be 100% sure after that, have someone ride next to you whilst filming your pedals. You should be able to see tiltback if it's occurring to the extent you feel it is

 

[Bizra6ot]

If your list is up to date and this is your first 40+ wheel it may be due to wind resistance try a more crouched and aerodynamic position 
Also if your Exn is up to date since the acc.stability FW it raises the front of the pedals on acceleration and raises the rear on braking to give more pressure, if you are not used to it and you are on hard mode which is accentuated try the medium mode at first, same thing if you often ride sitted since there is less leverage the medium mode is much better

I will add that the MJ lean can be funny but is not effective when riding aggressively, it is better to be crouched and accelerate more with ankle movements keeping your center of gravity above the wheel, you will be more stable and it allows to catch a bump potehole or recover a pedal dip 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Bizra6ot

[Skeptikos]

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

37mph sounds about bang on for the max tiltback speed setting. Are you 100% sure that it's off?! Don't forget that data only goes one way, so it could be showing as 'off' on EUCW/Begode app but isn't. I would try turning it off/on/off again.

Alright, I tried it today, setting the tiltback from the Begode app. I confirmed that the app tiltback settings work, and when it's off I still have this issue.

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

To be 100% sure after that, have someone ride next to you whilst filming your pedals. You should be able to see tiltback if it's occurring to the extent you feel it is

It's not an aggressive tiltback like I get from the regular tiltback settings, but the wheel pushes back enough that I can't accelerate any more even when pushing on the pads.

 

8 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

If your list is up to date and this is your first 40+ wheel it may be due to wind resistance try a more crouched and aerodynamic position

I can feel the pads pushing back against me so I don't think that can be wind resistance. If I wasn't leaning enough, the pads wouldn't have anything to push back against.

8 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

Also if your Exn is up to date since the acc.stability FW it raises the front of the pedals on acceleration and raises the rear on braking to give more pressure, if you are not used to it and you are on hard mode which is accentuated try the medium mode at first

That sounds plausible. I switched it to medium mode and it made no difference though.

8 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

I will add that the MJ lean can be funny but is not effective when riding aggressively, it is better to be crouched and accelerate more with ankle movements keeping your center of gravity above the wheel, you will be more stable and it allows to catch a bump potehole or recover a pedal dip 

Yeah I don't recommend the Michael Jackson moves. It's what I tried as a ridiculous last resort. (They're cool in the music videos though.)

 

I tried recalibrating the wheel and having it lean forward more. That helped and allowed me to go a few mph faster. That seems to be another point showing that this is an issue with the wheel tilting back. It shouldn't have made a difference if there was too much wind.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Skeptikos

[Denny Paul]

EUCs are relatively simple devices. Gotways/Begodes are even more simple. If tiltback is off, and firmware is up to date, it's not the wheel.

[mrelwood]

I wonder if the pad placement prevents you from leaning enough forward? I've seen some riders put the pads in so that their legs are stuck in a straight vertical position. That would surely prevent a proper lean at higher speeds. Another possible reason is standing too far back.

[Skeptikos]

No, I'm way off the front of the pedals. And when I say I'm doing a Michael Jackson lean, that's an accurate description of what I'm doing.

Spoiler

But one thing is I'm a lightweight, so I can't brute force the power pads as much as some others probably can. Someone elsewhere suggested I try soft mode, so that's next on my list. @Bizra6ot's acc.stability thing does seem like the closest explanation so far.

[mrelwood]

At least some Gotways do raise the pedals slightly as the speed increases, but it doesn't negate physics. If your center of gravity is in front of the axle further than what's required to negate the wind resistance, you will accelerate. Plain and simple. No firmware behavior can overcome this fact. That's why other's may have a hard time trusting in your description of the amount of your lean.

A few years ago there was a beginner rider that couldn't get his Gotway to go faster than four km/h. Several forum members tried to help, but how he described the situation didn't quite match reality. Until one member was bright enough to ask whether he's a downhill skier. He was. And to him, a forward lean ment to crouch down. Once this member was able to talk to the guy in his own language, the guy never replied again. I'm sure things clicked right then and there, and he was soon zooming about without issues.

I'm not saying you are crouching instead of leaning, but there might be something in your riding mechanics that are not supportive of what's required to go fast on an EUC. Could you maybe shoot a video of you trying to go fast?

[EMA]

do you use pads ? maybe they block your lean

[bracky72]

Move forward on the pedals. If you are far enough forward it takes very little effort to get moving fast.

[Mrd777]

20 hours ago, Skeptikos said:

I tried recalibrating the wheel and having it lean forward more

I believe this is key with the Ex.n. Since the battery placement is not centered on the wheel it really helps to calibrate a lot of forward lean on it.  I’m at 4 degrees forward..it’s my only wheel that I have this much forward lean, as I’m mostly neutral of slightly negative on others. Try with more forward lean calibration.

[Skeptikos]

OK, a quick point of order: while I appreciate the non-EX.N riders trying to help, at this point I really only want to hear from EX.N riders. This seems to be an issue unique to the EX.N.

[Denny Paul]

7 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

OK, a quick point of order: while I appreciate the non-EX.N riders trying to help, at this point I really only want to hear from EX.N riders. This seems to be an issue unique to the EX.N.

 

16 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

EUCs are relatively simple devices. Gotways/Begodes are even more simple. If tiltback is off, and firmware is up to date, it's not the wheel.

I owned an exn as my daily for a while about 1000 miles total, and have owned just about every EUC under the sun that's come out in the last 3 years, save for the very newest ones.

Larger (specifically longer) pedals help. Correctly adjusted lean pads help. And although it may not be what you want to hear, I still stand by what I said initially.

Just trying to help by calling a spade a spade. If you checked your wheel out, and you're sure tiltback is off and your firmware is UTD, it's rider input. Yeah if your wheel is stock, you've got to push so much pressure on your toes that both your heels lift. Or use powerpads. Or get longer pedals. Or try some of the other tricks other people have mentioned.

This isn't specific to just the EX.N either, most wheels have this characteristic when the pace picks up. Maybe it's unrefined firmware, maybe it's physics. But it is what it is for now.

At this point, I'm sorry to say, but I think you're fishing for a fix that doesn't exist.

[EMA]

29 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

OK, a quick point of order: while I appreciate the non-EX.N riders trying to help, at this point I really only want to hear from EX.N riders. This seems to be an issue unique to the EX.N.

i sold my EXN 2 weeks ago, had the accelerated firmware on it which tend to rise pedals a bit while accelerating, but the speed was never a problem to me honestly

my commander has this tendency too, it's not my ideal firmware but it's not bad, usually i calibrate my wheel -2 in front.

(my pad setup is really wide otherwise i can't lean and get top speed)

Edited August 21, 2022 by EMA

[Skeptikos]

46 minutes ago, Denny Paul said:

Larger (specifically longer) pedals help. Correctly adjusted lean pads help. And although it may not be what you want to hear, I still stand by what I said initially.

Just trying to help by calling a spade a spade. If you checked your wheel out, and you're sure tiltback is off and your firmware is UTD, it's rider input. Yeah if your wheel is stock, you've got to push so much pressure on your toes that both your heels lift. Or use powerpads. Or get longer pedals. Or try some of the other tricks other people have mentioned.

This isn't specific to just the EX.N either, most wheels have this characteristic when the pace picks up. Maybe it's unrefined firmware, maybe it's physics. But it is what it is for now.

At this point, I'm sorry to say, but I think you're fishing for a fix that doesn't exist.

You're all over the place my dude. Is the issue "rider input"? Or is the issue that it's inherently difficult to go fast on these wheels? Is there no fix, or is the fix to try your laundry list of suggestions? I didn't start this thread to get judgments of my "rider input". I just want to know why it's such a PITA to get this wheel up to 40mph, and what I might be able to do to make it less of a PITA.

Edited August 21, 2022 by Skeptikos

[Bizra6ot]

Same acc.stability 0° flat pedals no problem riding 45+ it's even the opposite it's hard to stay below 40 mph

[techyiam]

4 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

it's even the opposite it's hard to stay below 40 mph

Was there a police cruiser on your tail at the time?   🙂

[Denny Paul]

15 minutes ago, Skeptikos said:

You're all over the place my dude. Is the issue "rider input"? Or is the issue that it's inherently difficult to go fast on these wheels? Is there no fix, or is the fix to try your laundry list of suggestions? I didn't start this thread to get judgments of my "rider input". I just want to know why it's such a PITA to get this wheel up to 40mph, and what I might be able to do to make it less of a PITA.

i said rider input, not rider error. There's was no need to take things personally.

Best of luck to you.

[Bizra6ot]

2 minutes ago, techyiam said:

Was there a police cruiser on your tail at the time?   🙂

Kind of I ride in winding areas for bikers if it's sunny I have 2 chances out of 3 to run into them between two bushes or in a patrol of two to six police bikers but they are busier chasing sport bikes than me roads limit is 45

[techyiam]

37 minutes ago, Bizra6ot said:

Kind of I ride in winding areas for bikers if it's sunny I have 2 chances out of 3 to run into them between two bushes or in a patrol of two to six police bikers but they are busier chasing sport bikes than me roads limit is 45

Just a thought, should you get a Master (top speed is 100 km/h according to @Jack ex-KS, and EEVEES) , Master Pro, or a V13 unlocked ....

I just have this picture of you on the Master speeding pass them at 100 km/h, as they are handing a ticket to R6 rider on the side of the road.🙂

Edited August 21, 2022 by techyiam

[Skeptikos]

After more testing, here's my conclusion.

tl;dr: The problem is the accelerated stability feature. Until that's fixed, a partial solution is to increase the wheel's forward lean angle and switch to soft mode.

Since this is about to turn into a whole debate, here's a longer answer.

Now that I'm paying attention to the accelerated stability response, I can tell that it's surprisingly aggressive. That's definitely what I'm pushing back against at higher speeds. I thought it would be subtle, but it's not at all -- it seems to be more like 1/3 of the normal tiltback, which is a lot.

I'm not breaking the laws of physics. The EX.N is heavy with weight concentrated at the back. I'm a lightweight and might weigh 130lbs on my heavier days. With 40mph wind resistance, the EX.N can definitely counter some crazy leans on my part. If @Denny Paul has to buy extra-long pedals and lift his heels, it's no surprise that I'm struggling. @EMA has to place his pads extra wide so he can lean more. Clearly the EX.N requires an extraordinary amount of leaning at high speeds.

I think Begode messed up and made the accelerated stability response way too strong. I don't think it should take this much planning and effort just to hit a wheel's advertised top speed. Even after making changes to adapt to it, it seems like the best possible outcome is that it's awkward for lighter riders. So, yeah, I'm not happy with this accelerated stability thing.

Hat tip to @Bizra6ot for pointing me in the right direction.

[Bizra6ot]

@Skeptikos Maybe a matter of weight I'm 195lbs with gear, about acc.stability everyone likes it better than the og in the Exn groups so there is no need to fix it

However you can try to flash the og called "Exn C30 old" (if it is still in the list, at some point it had disappeared) it does not have this feature 

[Skeptikos]

2 hours ago, Bizra6ot said:

about acc.stability everyone likes it better than the og in the Exn groups so there is no need to fix it

You're making me doubt my explanation so I went out and tested more. I tried alternating between hard and soft mode, and, if anything, I think I feel more of the stability tiltback in soft mode. I'm starting to wonder it's actually helping me at high speeds, and that's why soft mode is easier.

That leaves me trying to explain what's happening at high speeds that's bothering me. There is pushback from the wheel, presumably the accelerated stability, but it doesn't push back so much that I have to lean back. Instead it's more that the wheel is less responsive. I lean forward, and, instead of the wheel accelerating, I just feel like I'm about to fall forward. The limiting factor (in hard mode with a perfectly level wheel calibration) is that I will literally fall off the front of the wheel if I try to lean more.

I don't think it's the wind, because I'm still pushing on the front of the pedals and the pads just like at low speeds. Instead it seems like the wheel requires more force to accelerate. And eventually, at 40mph with those settings, accelerating requires more force than I'm capable of before I would fall over.